Christianity In America

[lesjulia]

I just dont understand how someone could give their life to this. I mean come on guys. His sons birthday is the same day as 4 religions pre-christianity. ALot of what it teaches is like that. You dont need christianity to be a good person. I am a good person, and I dont believe that. I have a decent head on my shoulders and my parents did as well. You dont need this man-made hogwash to make yourself feel better about yourself! Why hasnt he ever tried to contact me? I have never seen or heard him. Shouldnt he be trying to convince me? Or just have faith that i dont let logic get in the way of my beliefs?

Probably because you are a secular gentile. And as long as you do not reject or go against Christianity, then you are peace with it. Only where there are issues or conflicts you cannot forgive or resolve, it may become an issue.

Where Jesus influence or authority is supreme is in areas we CANNOT forgive by our own natural will. Things so beyond us, it takes almost divine intervention to help us let go and forgive or we would be so burdened we would lose our minds and relationships over it.

For things THAT unforgivable and inexplicably unjust, and creating undue suffering just to think about, that is where people who turned to God and Christ for their minds and hearts to be freed are "so thankful" they give their lives to help other people to know this freedom. Some people literally cannot control the voices they hear in their heads, or their addictions that drive them to self destruction and endangerment of other people; so these who are saved from addiction, by praying for divine forgiveness beyond their own will which they have lost, have a different outlook that you may never understand if you never experience hellish suffering.

Please count yourself blessed. As long as you choose to forgive, or to ask help to forgive things, then the same spirit of God and Christ that works for good in all relationships can still enter in to guide life in a positive direction. It is only when we reject or block things out of unforgiveness that we become in conflict with this greater good will, and cause obstructions and suffering.

I do reject christianity. I reject all religions. I dont completely rule out a higher power, but your "God"? No. It is a man-made manipulative storybook written by several people translated hundreds of times. Does not make any sense. At all..

"Religion is a poison to everyone"

 

[lesjulia]

I just dont understand how someone could give their life to this. I mean come on guys. His sons birthday is the same day as 4 religions pre-christianity. ALot of what it teaches is like that. You dont need christianity to be a good person. I am a good person, and I dont believe that. I have a decent head on my shoulders and my parents did as well. You dont need this man-made hogwash to make yourself feel better about yourself! Why hasnt he ever tried to contact me? I have never seen or heard him. Shouldnt he be trying to convince me? Or just have faith that i dont let logic get in the way of my beliefs?

Probably because you are a secular gentile. And as long as you do not reject or go against Christianity, then you are peace with it. Only where there are issues or conflicts you cannot forgive or resolve, it may become an issue.

Where Jesus influence or authority is supreme is in areas we CANNOT forgive by our own natural will. Things so beyond us, it takes almost divine intervention to help us let go and forgive or we would be so burdened we would lose our minds and relationships over it.

For things THAT unforgivable and inexplicably unjust, and creating undue suffering just to think about, that is where people who turned to God and Christ for their minds and hearts to be freed are "so thankful" they give their lives to help other people to know this freedom. Some people literally cannot control the voices they hear in their heads, or their addictions that drive them to self destruction and endangerment of other people; so these who are saved from addiction, by praying for divine forgiveness beyond their own will which they have lost, have a different outlook that you may never understand if you never experience hellish suffering.

Please count yourself blessed. As long as you choose to forgive, or to ask help to forgive things, then the same spirit of God and Christ that works for good in all relationships can still enter in to guide life in a positive direction. It is only when we reject or block things out of unforgiveness that we become in conflict with this greater good will, and cause obstructions and suffering.

"Where Jesus influence or authority is supreme is in areas we CANNOT forgive by our own natural will."
--
"Your will isn't yours it's GOD's"

 

[emilynghiem]

I do reject christianity. I reject all religions. I dont completely rule out a higher power, but your "God"? No. It is a man-made manipulative storybook written by several people translated hundreds of times. Does not make any sense. At all..

OK let's start by defining both the positive and negative things that God/Christianity mean.

I find that when people take time to spell out the meanings, most people agree on the good things and reject the same bad things.

For example:
if God means Love, Truth, Wisdom, Life, universal laws, good will, or highest good for all humanity

If Christianity means true charity (not false charity or false christianity for show reward or image)

If Jesus means Justice, and if so, what kind: retributive justice or restorative justice.
I have friends who are Christian but push retributive judgment/punishment instead of restorative justice, so that is where we can clash on what is the meaning of Jesus.

What are the good principles you believe in, that if God/Jesus meant those things you would not have a problem naturally following that because you already do?

 

[emilynghiem]

"Religion is a poison to everyone"

Please be consistent.
If you are going to throw out all religion as bad, because of religious abuses of authority,
then also throw out all politics and govt laws as bad, because those are abused also.
Even worse, because they are enforced as mandatory, while religions are voluntary!

But if you are going to forgive abuses of govt/secular laws, and allow the system to correct itself instead of throwing out "all government" like an anarchist; then also apply the same principle to religion, and hold each group responsible for correcting their own abuses by their own laws they claim to follow. If they refuse to do so, if any group continues to commit religious or cult abuse, then yes, they should be policed under civil or criminal laws, depending on the severity of the abuse. Same with legal or judicial abuse, this should be checked by enforcing the same laws to correct people who aren't following them properly.

 

[TNHarley]

Em, none of it means anything to me

 

[PratchettFan]

How do you figure?

Because religion has never had anything to do with any god. It is, and has always been, an entirely human thing. Gods come and go, but religion is always there absorbing whatever beliefs there might be.

And they all seem to be very similar.. HHMMMM

Exactly. Once you remove the rituals and the deities, there is very little difference between religions.

 

[Avatar4321]

I just dont understand how someone could give their life to this. I mean come on guys. His sons birthday is the same day as 4 religions pre-christianity. ALot of what it teaches is like that. You dont need christianity to be a good person. I am a good person, and I dont believe that. I have a decent head on my shoulders and my parents did as well. You dont need this man-made hogwash to make yourself feel better about yourself! Why hasnt he ever tried to contact me? I have never seen or heard him. Shouldnt he be trying to convince me? Or just have faith that i dont let logic get in the way of my beliefs?

You don't actually think Christ's birthday is Dec 25, do you? You do realize that Christians simply adopted that day.

Why havent you tried to contact Him?

 

[Avatar4321]

Because religion has never had anything to do with any god. It is, and has always been, an entirely human thing. Gods come and go, but religion is always there absorbing whatever beliefs there might be.

And they all seem to be very similar.. HHMMMM

Exactly. Once you remove the rituals and the deities, there is very little difference between religions.

That's a fairly simplistic and inaccurate way to look at it.

 

[PratchettFan]

How do you figure?

Because religion has never had anything to do with any god. It is, and has always been, an entirely human thing. Gods come and go, but religion is always there absorbing whatever beliefs there might be.

Yes and no. Even the religious and systems of law 'made by man' reflect the same patterns as in the Holy Trinity. One level that represents the individual/physical, one level that represents the spiritual/global/collective level, and one that represents the connection or relationship between the other two. And the point is to have balance and harmony between all three levels.

This pattern is repeated even in secular psychology (superego/ego/id) and laws of govt (judicial/legislative/executive).

The point of all these systems is to establish equal justice, or reciprocity, by laws we follow by conscience. If we enforce laws by the spirit of retributive justice, that brings strife and oppression where abuse of authority is antichrist; if we live by the spirit of the laws by restorative justice, with equal forgiveness and mercy for others we ask for ourselves, then that is the spirit of Christ Jesus that fulfills all laws, whether religious or secular. All laws and authorities are governed under this universal spirit of truth and justice, that God and Jesus represent. If someone believes in God in terms of Love, or Truth, or Wisdom, that is still the same God being expressed in different ways, whether personified by religious symbolism or abstract and secular; it is still a reflection of the same concepts that God stands for.

So from our human perspective, we can explain this as man's attempt to define the relationship between individual will and life and the collective level of society and humanity as a whole.

From a spiritual perspective, we can say this shows that man is made in God's image.
That all humans are "body/mind/spirit," so any attempt to explain this collectively is going to show in our laws or religions that address all three levels.

It is BOTH human to do this, by our nature, and also universal or divine if you consider the whole of all these systems all pointing to the same world and laws for all humanity.

I can agree to an extent, but you take it to areas which must be taken purely on faith.

Religion is a construct of human behavior. So of course you are going to see patterns repeated. When you speak of the holy trinity, for example, I suspect you refer to a Christian model. But could as easily refer to the Hindu model, or the Egyptian model - both of which predate Christianity considerably. This, I think, says a lot about us but it says absolutely nothing about gods.

As to your statement about truth and justice, I completely disagree. Truth and justice are entirely relative - in the eye of the beholder if you will. Religion, government and law are not there to provide truth and justice. They are more often than not vehemently opposed to truth and quite unjust. Their purpose, IMO, is to allow human beings to coexist with the minimum amount of violence. The purpose is not to make you happy, it is to allow you the conditions to breed and raise your children until they are old enough to replace you.

 

[PratchettFan]

And they all seem to be very similar.. HHMMMM

Exactly. Once you remove the rituals and the deities, there is very little difference between religions.

That's a fairly simplistic and inaccurate way to look at it.

Simplistic does not make it inaccurate. In this case, it is just not paying attention to fluff. However, please tell me how it was inaccurate.

 

[TNHarley]

I just dont understand how someone could give their life to this. I mean come on guys. His sons birthday is the same day as 4 religions pre-christianity. ALot of what it teaches is like that. You dont need christianity to be a good person. I am a good person, and I dont believe that. I have a decent head on my shoulders and my parents did as well. You dont need this man-made hogwash to make yourself feel better about yourself! Why hasnt he ever tried to contact me? I have never seen or heard him. Shouldnt he be trying to convince me? Or just have faith that i dont let logic get in the way of my beliefs?

You don't actually think Christ's birthday is Dec 25, do you? You do realize that Christians simply adopted that day.

Why havent you tried to contact Him?

They adopted that from a pre-dated religion? So they are copy-cats? I tried when I was little and all I got was shit on. Like shit through a screen door type shit

 

[emilynghiem]

Exactly. Once you remove the rituals and the deities, there is very little difference between religions.

That's a fairly simplistic and inaccurate way to look at it.

Simplistic does not make it inaccurate. In this case, it is just not paying attention to fluff. However, please tell me how it was inaccurate.

I would say Christianity goes a step further than other teachings.
Jesus represents the central connection and embodiment of universal Justice with Mercy
for all humanity, all tribes (not just Christian based but even secular laws, even nontheists and atheists who follow natural laws).

This concept that collectively humanity can break the cycle of injustice and suffering by joining together in Christ or by conscience, in the spirit of truth and justice which God and Jesus represent, is unifying and unique at the same time. It applies to and includes all other groups, but it also acknowledges the central connection for all humanity in Christ Jesus.

 

[emilynghiem]

I can agree to an extent, but you take it to areas which must be taken purely on faith.

Yes I agree that any take or interpretion of these things, in relation to the whole, is going to involve faith, depending on what you and I believe or don't believe, and anyone else also.

Religion is a construct of human behavior. So of course you are going to see patterns repeated. When you speak of the holy trinity, for example, I suspect you refer to a Christian model. But could as easily refer to the Hindu model, or the Egyptian model - both of which predate Christianity considerably. This, I think, says a lot about us but it says absolutely nothing about gods.

If you compare these different trinities, for example
God/Christ/HolySpirit and two great commandments, love of God and love of others
Buddha/Dharma/Sangha and two promises, to develop Wisdom and Compassion
You will see the same aspects that "God" represents showing up on the top level,
and the idea of Christ Jesus fulfilling the laws on the level of conscience or relationship
on the second level. Buddha refers to having perfect knowledge, awareness or wisdom, which can be compared with knowing God/Wisdom or God's truth, universal truth, etc.
Dharma refers to the laws, where the Christian equivalent is the Word of God that Christ represents as becoming embodied in man, where the spirit of the laws is made flesh or real.

Yes, these can all be manmade, and can precede or predate Christ.
The laws of Moses also predated Christ who came later in the process of fulfilling these.
The same can be said of our Constitutional laws and principles we have yet to fully achieve.
The first step is to lay down these laws, and the second step is to see them fulfilled in spirit.
This process is on our man-made level, and does NOT negate the spiritual process going on as developing in our maturity as a human race to work toward peace and justice for all.
So this is still in keeping with the spiritual process and stages given in the Bible or other religions or myths. The fact that these come in different order historically does not negate the way they all reflect the same universal process going on that all humanity experiences.

As to your statement about truth and justice, I completely disagree. Truth and justice are entirely relative - in the eye of the beholder if you will. Religion, government and law are who not there to provide truth and justice. They are more often than not vehemently opposed to truth and quite unjust. Their purpose, IMO, is to allow human beings to coexist with the minimum amount of violence. The purpose is not to make you happy, it is to allow you the conditions to breed and raise your children until they are old enough to replace you.

a. In order to be sustainable and consistent, the system will eventually need to be reformed where it does align with how human nature is heading, toward mature states and not in unstable cycles of ups and downs from the learning curve, repeating past mistakes until we learn our lessons. So even these secular systems are going to move toward equal protection of the laws or Equal Justice for all people if humanity/society is going to survive longterm.

b. as for relativity, exactly, this is why we have religious and political conflicts and wars.
Everyone can more easily see what they want, and lobby for that to define justice, and has difficulty reconciling with people from another group, culture or nation who are lobbying for their own interests.

Again the only thing that is going to satisfy all people from all angles and groups is what is universally good for all people and nations. When we work toward the highest good for all people equally, then this will also align with our individual agenda and interests.

The church/religious leaders preach this vision from the top down, where people choose to follow the leader/group of their choice.

The state/political leaders are SUPPOSED to be seeking reforms and solutions from the bottom up, by resolving problems and conflicts locally among groups to represent and protect all interests equally, and building upward toward public policies and laws reflecting this consensus or will of the people.

That is how it is supposed to be, and where we meet in the middle, where we agree what is good for us and for others, and all humanity equally, seeking what is the greater good is what it means to reconcile our individual free will with God's will. That agreement by conscience is what it means to be joined in Christ, for sake of universal justice and peace.

It represents the highest "perfect will" all for humanity, and is the one thing that will satisfy and bring peace to all nations, groups and individuals each seeking what is best for us.

If you believe such perfect Justice is possible and is coming for all humanity on earth, that is what it ultimately means to believe in Jesus coming and bringing salvation to all humanity.

 

[emilynghiem]

Em, none of it means anything to me

OK Let's start with what does has meaning and value to you in life.
What do you believe is most important? What is the greatest good
that people should strive for in life and relationships?
And how do you get there, given the fact that things can go wrong in life.
Can you describe how you see the process by which people grow and mature in life?

 

[Cammmpbell]

I too am an agnostic. However, I don't think we are witnessing the end of the practice of ancient god worship. I tend to think when that truly happens we will no longer be the people we currently are. Religion is like government, an inherent factor in our societies. It need not be in any individual life, just as government need not be, but all human societies since the beginning of our history - at least above the level of small clan - has had religion as an intrinsic part of the social matrix. I see nothing which indicates to me any change in that fact. It will evolve as societies evolve, but that won't change what it is. Just how it operates.

Well....whatever floats one's boat. Personally rising from a grave, joining a ghost floating on a cloud then flying off to paradise to live forever while those who disagree with one's belief roast in a pit sounds more rediculous to me than the Roman and Greek gods of ancient times. The idea that our government copied anything from the bible to use as guidelines amuses me. I know if the millions who have been slaughtered by Christians had a vote in the matter they would surely retire the entire concept. After preaching hundreds of millions if not billions of fire and brimstone sermons hell is no longer hot.
The church body as a whole is opportunistic. For a thousand years they required infant baptism but when the public rejected the "born in sin" concept and began to stay away they ignored their previous position and avoided all the scripture it was based on. They get real interested when donations begin to falter.The scripture is still there.
For thousands of years the church hunted down, tortured and killed innocent young women for practicing witchcraft. Now that we all know there's no such thing as a witch they have shut up about it...the scripture is still there.
For more than 4000 years the church tolerated slavery and sometimes accomodated it. When one human owning another was no longer a fad or socially acceptable the church shut up about it and they never preach about it at all. All the scripture about slaves obeying their masters etc. is still in the bible but one never hears a word about it from the church.
Nothing is new about all this...the church is presently in the process of distancing itself
from the flame and heat concept for one reason and one reason only...it doesn't work any more. Most people, regardless of what they say in public, are no longer "AFRAID" of god. They live their lives in the most convenient and comfortable way they can.
The bible's message is two fold and what's happening in the modern society is that at least half of it is being ignored by both the church and it's members. Any negative scripture or any negative thoughts are basically ignored and in addition to that all the sermons which used to be hell fire and brimstone in nature are now carefully worded and slanted toward hell being the absence from god and his angels. Just another desperate ploy attempting to maintain attendance and donations.
While the church has amassed enormous wealth all over the world youngsters by the hundreds of millions have starved to death. The church is failing. The statistics all over the world are mind boggling and even here in the "Christian Nation" the number of folks who claim no religious affiliation whatsoever has doubled in the last twenty years. The Internet/social media will put the finishing touches on it.

And yet religion remains a central aspect of our society and shows no signs of stopping. Everything you have just said could also be said about government and it too shows no sign of leaving us. You seem to relate religion with a particular set of beliefs, but that is nothing more than the cultural veneer. Religion is not about belief, it only mirrors the beliefs of the society in which it exists. Religion is about belonging.

I would say that when the Christian faith is gone in the U S...religion's gone. That's what happens when all the eggs are in one basket. As far as the major European nations.....a no brainer.

America becoming less Christian, survey finds - CNN

"America is a less Christian nation than it was 20 years ago, and Christianity is not losing out to other religions, but primarily to a rejection of religion altogether, a survey published Monday found."

 

[PratchettFan]

I can agree to an extent, but you take it to areas which must be taken purely on faith.

Yes I agree that any take or interpretion of these things, in relation to the whole, is going to involve faith, depending on what you and I believe or don't believe, and anyone else also.

Religion is a construct of human behavior. So of course you are going to see patterns repeated. When you speak of the holy trinity, for example, I suspect you refer to a Christian model. But could as easily refer to the Hindu model, or the Egyptian model - both of which predate Christianity considerably. This, I think, says a lot about us but it says absolutely nothing about gods.

If you compare these different trinities, for example
God/Christ/HolySpirit and two great commandments, love of God and love of others
Buddha/Dharma/Sangha and two promises, to develop Wisdom and Compassion
You will see the same aspects that "God" represents showing up on the top level,
and the idea of Christ Jesus fulfilling the laws on the level of conscience or relationship
on the second level. Buddha refers to having perfect knowledge, awareness or wisdom, which can be compared with knowing God/Wisdom or God's truth, universal truth, etc.
Dharma refers to the laws, where the Christian equivalent is the Word of God that Christ represents as becoming embodied in man, where the spirit of the laws is made flesh or real.

Yes, these can all be manmade, and can precede or predate Christ.
The laws of Moses also predated Christ who came later in the process of fulfilling these.
The same can be said of our Constitutional laws and principles we have yet to fully achieve.
The first step is to lay down these laws, and the second step is to see them fulfilled in spirit.
This process is on our man-made level, and does NOT negate the spiritual process going on as developing in our maturity as a human race to work toward peace and justice for all.
So this is still in keeping with the spiritual process and stages given in the Bible or other religions or myths. The fact that these come in different order historically does not negate the way they all reflect the same universal process going on that all humanity experiences.

As to your statement about truth and justice, I completely disagree. Truth and justice are entirely relative - in the eye of the beholder if you will. Religion, government and law are who not there to provide truth and justice. They are more often than not vehemently opposed to truth and quite unjust. Their purpose, IMO, is to allow human beings to coexist with the minimum amount of violence. The purpose is not to make you happy, it is to allow you the conditions to breed and raise your children until they are old enough to replace you.

a. In order to be sustainable and consistent, the system will eventually need to be reformed where it does align with how human nature is heading, toward mature states and not in unstable cycles of ups and downs from the learning curve, repeating past mistakes until we learn our lessons. So even these secular systems are going to move toward equal protection of the laws or Equal Justice for all people if humanity/society is going to survive longterm.

b. as for relativity, exactly, this is why we have religious and political conflicts and wars.
Everyone can more easily see what they want, and lobby for that to define justice, and has difficulty reconciling with people from another group, culture or nation who are lobbying for their own interests.

Again the only thing that is going to satisfy all people from all angles and groups is what is universally good for all people and nations. When we work toward the highest good for all people equally, then this will also align with our individual agenda and interests.

The church/religious leaders preach this vision from the top down, where people choose to follow the leader/group of their choice.

The state/political leaders are SUPPOSED to be seeking reforms and solutions from the bottom up, by resolving problems and conflicts locally among groups to represent and protect all interests equally, and building upward toward public policies and laws reflecting this consensus or will of the people.

That is how it is supposed to be, and where we meet in the middle, where we agree what is good for us and for others, and all humanity equally, seeking what is the greater good is what it means to reconcile our individual free will with God's will. That agreement by conscience is what it means to be joined in Christ, for sake of universal justice and peace.

It represents the highest "perfect will" all for humanity, and is the one thing that will satisfy and bring peace to all nations, groups and individuals each seeking what is best for us.

If you believe such perfect Justice is possible and is coming for all humanity on earth, that is what it ultimately means to believe in Jesus coming and bringing salvation to all humanity.

The difficulty is in the first three words of your last sentence... "If you believe..." I personally do not believe in perfect Justice. In fact, I think such a thing is counterproductive to spiritual development. However, I am not a Christian.

But we are talking about two different things. You are talking about belief, spirituality, personal growth. I am talking about religion. The two things are not the same. In fact, they are not even related to each other. At best, a religion might provide a channel for an indiviudal to seek the things you refer to, but that is not why it exists. I think a valid argument can be made that religion interferes with spirituality.

That is not to say it is not an important and positive thing. Social stability is extremely important. Religion and government provide that stability. And before anyone brings up war and religious persecution, religion and government are not seperate beings. They are made up of people and people are violent.

 

[AVG-JOE]

I too am an agnostic. However, I don't think we are witnessing the end of the practice of ancient god worship. I tend to think when that truly happens we will no longer be the people we currently are. Religion is like government, an inherent factor in our societies. It need not be in any individual life, just as government need not be, but all human societies since the beginning of our history - at least above the level of small clan - has had religion as an intrinsic part of the social matrix. I see nothing which indicates to me any change in that fact. It will evolve as societies evolve, but that won't change what it is. Just how it operates.

Just watch the next 20 years! The internet is a game changer and here we are at the dawn of it. Think animal domestication and selective farming. Game changer. Monkeys with air conditioning on a roll. The goods.

Between advances in technology and growth in population levels, the World is shrinking and forcing the Monkeys to stop heading west while stripping their environment and actually learn to get along with each other. Getting along with each other means sharing the resources a little more equitably than our history is used to. Welcome Social Media and instant world-wide communications.... next stop? The Stars.

 

[AVG-JOE]

The God of Nature is the Lord.

Define 'Lord'.

If he was 'Lord', as the word was used in the day The Book was translated, He'd strike me down as I sit here or at the very least change my luck in life when I flip the god described by the Jews, Christians and Muslims another "Fuck YOU!" in a long line of heartfelt attempts to dispel the imaginary.


If not, what good is an impotent Lord?

 

[AVG-JOE]

Never in history have we known without a doubt, as we do now, how the brain works, how the subconscious works and how our perceptions function. It is obvious from all this information how easily humans could, and even in a way needed to, construct faith systems. It is even logical that an animal as sensitive, creative and rich in imagination as we are would come up with explanations for what seemed to them inexplicable.

The problem is that there has been little progress made in 'faith'. At the same time, 'we' have remained attached to these old ways of looking at the universe. This despite clear indications and intimations on the part of luminaries from various periods, including some who have been integrated into these out dated beliefs.

The universe remains fascinating, beautiful, even mysterious. There are still deeply important aspects that elude our comprehension. We could easily satisfy ourselves with investigating all this while at the same time contributing to genuine human psychic/spiritual welfare.

Why cling to a hoary, cob wed encrusted past?

Well said. Isn't it amazing how little knowledge about the universe it takes to dispute the Ancient Story Books?

 

[AVG-JOE]

I just dont understand how someone could give their life to this. I mean come on guys. His sons birthday is the same day as 4 religions pre-christianity. ALot of what it teaches is like that. You dont need christianity to be a good person. I am a good person, and I dont believe that. I have a decent head on my shoulders and my parents did as well. You dont need this man-made hogwash to make yourself feel better about yourself! Why hasnt he ever tried to contact me? I have never seen or heard him. Shouldnt he be trying to convince me? Or just have faith that i dont let logic get in the way of my beliefs?

The beauty of 'God' is that He can be whatever you need Him to be at the time. There is something inside us that separates us from the other monkeys. I call that spark Sentience and see religion as an inevitable step in the evolution life takes on the road to Sentience and the stars. Religion taught the Monkeys the benefit of working together even better than hunting did.