Yes or no? NATO PTOVOKED this war.

[Mac-7]

Sorry, that's goofy.

Its goofy that the Swiss have nothing to fear from NATO?

Or goofy that russia does fear NATO?

what is the difference between russia and the Swiss except that one is a threat yo its neighbors and the other is not?

 

[Meathead]

Its goofy that the Swiss have nothing to fear from NATO?

Or goofy that russia does fear NATO?

what is the difference between russia and the Swiss except that one is a threat yo its neighbors and the other is not?

It would be goofy of me to try to explain this to you. One can only assume a certain amount of context in conversations between adults.

 

[justoffal]

If so then the russians are delusional

as I keep pointing out Switzerland is surrounded by NATO and nothing bad ever happened to them

You know Putin made clear what he wanted right? In some delusional historical rant about the Russian empire or something.

You don't have to defend him. Frankly I don't know why anyone would.

Oh I'm not defending Putin at all...
I'm attacking the decision to choose war when it could have been avoided.
Ukraine would have many legal recourses even with the Russian Parliament. I feel Zelensky chose war because he was pressured to by NATO.

 

[justoffal]

If so then the russians are delusional

as I keep pointing out Switzerland is surrounded by NATO and nothing bad ever happened to them

Switzerland doesn't have a diametrically opposed governing philosophy to the NATO Nations... Russia does.

 

[Mac-7]

It would be goofy of me to try to explain this to you. One can only assume a certain amount of context in conversations between adults.

I’m not a mind reader

and if I tried you would never accept my effort to guess what you are thinking

 

[Mac-7]

Oh I'm not defending Putin at all...
I'm attacking the decision to choose war when it could have been avoided.
Ukraine would have many legal recourses even with the Russian Parliament. I feel Zelensky chose war because he was pressured to by NATO.

Russia attacked/invaded ukraine

it was putin who chose war

 

[Mac-7]

Switzerland doesn't have a diametrically opposed governing philosophy to the NATO Nations... Russia does.

Russia governing policy is to seize smaller countries by force

even the euros remember WWII and how it began

 

[JoeB131]

Here is a well written and balanced article on the subject. No white hats here people.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...2022/feb/28/nato-expansion-war-russia-ukraine

Jo

I think the Ukrainians did a lot to cause this crisis, but Putin's violations of international law and common decency are inexcusable.

Arguing NATO caused this is like arguing Chamberlain caused WWII by backing Poland.

 

[JoeB131]

Oh I'm not defending Putin at all...
I'm attacking the decision to choose war when it could have been avoided.
Ukraine would have many legal recourses even with the Russian Parliament. I feel Zelensky chose war because he was pressured to by NATO.

Except Zelensky didn't choose war, Putin did.

 

[justoffal]

Russia attacked/invaded ukraine

it was putin who chose war

He waited for 2 months for some assurances that weapons would not be placed in Ukraine... I guess his lack of an answer was his answer.... They had every intention of doing it and they were not going to promise not to.
So while Putin pulled the trigger yes he's not responsible for this all by himself.
...

Except Zelensky didn't choose war, Putin did.

Zelensky took the wrong advice. Had he agreed to make assurances there most likely would have been no invasion. Maybe he should have asked his people first eh? This has been coming for years....it could have been avoided...... There are numerous elements in Russia that are Anti-Putin.. Zalensky would have been in a unique position to leverage that. Why do I believe we're going to discover that he signed contracts with weapons companies? Companies who would kick back to him? Something stinks here.

Jo

 

[JoeB131]

Zelensky took the wrong advice. Had he agreed to make assurances there most likely would have been no invasion. Maybe he should have asked his people first eh? This has been coming for years....it could have been avoided...... There are numerous elements in Russia that are Anti-Putin.. Zalensky would have been in a unique position to leverage that. Why do I believe we're going to discover that he signed contracts with weapons companies? Companies who would kick back to him? Something stinks here.

I think Zelensky made a whole lot of mistakes, not the least of which was not mobilizing his reserves weeks before the invasion.

The thing is, I don't think anything the Russians are asking for is unreasonable. But going to war to get them is.

Just like I am being completely reasonable when I ask my neighbor to keep his dog off my lawn, but I am completely unreasonable when I go over to his house with a baseball bat and start hitting him.

 

[justoffal]

Russia governing policy is to seize smaller countries by force

even the euros remember WWII and how it began

Putin is not Stalin....doesn't make him a good guy...

 

[justoffal]

I think Zelensky made a whole lot of mistakes, not the least of which was not mobilizing his reserves weeks before the invasion.

The thing is, I don't think anything the Russians are asking for is unreasonable. But going to war to get them is.

Just like I am being completely reasonable when I ask my neighbor to keep his dog off my lawn, but I am completely unreasonable when I go over to his house with a baseball bat and start hitting him.

Good post

 

[Decus]

Not sure what "ptovoked" means.

Russia was humiliated with the fall of the Soviet Union and further humiliated and alarmed when NATO expanded to its doorstep. When great powers are humiliated, it is inevitable that with time there are consequences.

The countries that were part of the USSR were not part of the "union" voluntarily - all had been invaded by Russia at some point in history and were governed by Russian puppet governments.

The only thing humiliating is what those countries endured at the hands of the Russians for decades and longer.

.

 

[justoffal]

Good post

I think Zelensky made a whole lot of mistakes, not the least of which was not mobilizing his reserves weeks before the invasion.

The thing is, I don't think anything the Russians are asking for is unreasonable. But going to war to get them is.

Just like I am being completely reasonable when I ask my neighbor to keep his dog off my lawn, but I am completely unreasonable when I go over to his house with a baseball bat and start hitting him.

I just hope we don't discover later on that Zelensky has already made business commitments to weapons suppliers. But I have a bad feeling about it. He could have prevented invasion IMO....this is no pissing contest....millions of people have been needlessly displaced.

 

[justoffal]

Not sure what "ptovoked" means.

Russia was humiliated with the fall of the Soviet Union and further humiliated and alarmed when NATO expanded to its doorstep. When great powers are humiliated, it is inevitable that with time there are consequences.

Yeah too late to Edit....but thanks for pointing it out.

 

[JoeB131]

I just hope we don't discover later on that's Zelensky has already made business commitments to weapons suppliers. But I have a bad feeling about it. He could have prevented invasion IMO....this is no pissing contest....millions of people have been needlessly displaced.

I'm not sure about that, actually.

The question you have to ask is WHY Putin picked this moment to go to war over a conflict he has been having with the Ukraine since 2014. The separatists were pretty firmly in control in the Donbass and his forces control the Crimea. He had a diplomatic path to resolved these issues through the Minsk Accords.

Then you look at the political situation in Russia. The dissident movement is growing, there's discontent over the economy and Putin's handling of Covid (Russia only trails the US, Brazil and India in the number of Covid Deaths).

A war might be just the big distracting thing he needs. Worked for Stalin.

Didn't work so well for Nicholas II.

 

[justoffal]

I'm not sure about that, actually.

The question you have to ask is WHY Putin picked this moment to go to war over a conflict he has been having with the Ukraine since 2014. The separatists were pretty firmly in control in the Donbass and his forces control the Crimea. He had a diplomatic path to resolved these issues through the Minsk Accords.

Then you look at the political situation in Russia. The dissident movement is growing, there's discontent over the economy and Putin's handling of Covid (Russia only trails the US, Brazil and India in the number of Covid Deaths).

A war might be just the big distracting thing he needs. Worked for Stalin.

Didn't work so well for Nicholas II.

I smell something underneath....a deal...a meeting...some straw that broke the camel's back hiding somewhere....

Russia is broke and war is expensive.
Could be he's losing his mind too....remains to be seen...didn't appear that way the other day though.

What triggered this? De-nazify???....nah I don't buy that. But why would Zelensky let all of this pain come in?

There were definitely other options.
I don't give a shit about Putin or about Zelensky....it's the people I'm worried about.

Jo

 

[JoeB131]

I smell something underneath....a deal...a meeting...some straw that broke the camel's back hiding somewhere....

Russia is broke and war is expensive.
Could be he's losing his mind too....remains to be seen...didn't appear that way the other day though.

What triggered this? De-nazify???....nah I don't buy that. But why would Zelensky let all of this pain come in?

There were definitely other options.
I don't give a shit about Putin or about Zelensky....it's the people I'm worried about.

Again, I am going with my theory that Putin needs this to distract from his problems at home, and he realizes that after four years of Trump, NATO and the US are not going to be as weak as they are now.

As this thing drags on, the west will be more likely to accept a solution that involves ceding the Donbass and Crimea to Russia.

For Zelensky, there was no way he was going to be able to cede the Donbass and Crimea at the negotiating table and be able to survive politically.

 

[konradv]

When you know Soros and Schwab back Ukraine, it's hard to be on their side

So, petty political interest over national interest?