Zone1 Why is it so tough to believe in God?

[DukeU]

Her...

Prove it.

 

[EMH]

Prove it.

Liberty depends on many things. The first thing is truth. Without truth, America suffers, bleeds money and lives, and invades countries it has no business invading. Such is the case with the Pro Israel Christian

no truth
no patriotism to America
no concern for America at all


The Pro Israel Christian is the single most destructive demographic in America because it has no truth. It infected the GOP in the late 1990s and since then America has gone off a cliff. And it has not learned one thing, because it doesn't want to, it doesn't care, all because it hates the same thing the far left does, TRUTH.

 

[DukeU]

Liberty depends on many things. The first thing is truth. Without truth, America suffers, bleeds money and lives, and invades countries it has no business invading. Such is the case with the Pro Israel Christian

no truth
no patriotism to America
no concern for America at all


The Pro Israel Christian is the single most destructive demographic in America because it has no truth. It infected the GOP in the late 1990s and since then America has gone off a cliff. And it has not learned one thing, because it doesn't want to, it doesn't care, all because it hates the same thing the far left does, TRUTH.

LOL

That doesn't prove you love anything.

 

[EMH]

LOL

That doesn't prove you love anything.

Who do you love?

The worst mass murdering monster alive on Earth today....

 

[DukeU]

Who do you love?

The worst mass murdering monster alive on Earth today....

Why would you believe I love anyone.

I can't prove love any more than I can prove God.

 

[JanetTheGreat]

It is difficult to wrap my head around that a supposed "loving" and "caring" creator put us in a reality where things such as childhood cancers, and other such diseases exist. If there is an all "loving" creator, where is the love for those who have their lives cut short due to horrible diseases? It seems there is none.

Taking all of my criticisms of organized religions aside, that would be number one.

 

[excalibur]

Is it because:

• Lack of belief we are lovable
• Lack of belief we are cared for
• Lack of belief God is an active agent in our lives
• Lack of belief we have a reason for being

What blocks people from believing in God? Why is it so hard to believe?

Faith is a gift from God.

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him. John 6:44.

 

[forkup]

Seek and you shall find. I tested that, the Commandments, the Beatitudes, other Biblical teachings, and discovered they were all true--but I had no physical evidence to show anyone, only testimony. Recall science: You conduct the same test/experiment with no variables (or the same variable) for the same result. With the subjective, one is working with changing variables, so exact duplicate tests are not an option.

Subjective is when physical evidence and an exact duplicate test are not possible.

Test that have no objective criteria, no physical evidence, and can't be duplicated are not tests. They barely qualify as valid opinion.

 

[forkup]

Have you done any genealogy? I have, going back generations, paying particular attention to what the women in my family tree were doing. Things like, crossing the ocean on their own, several times. Exploring/traveling through the wilderness, also on their own. They were also executors of estates, almost all ran their own small business to help the family income. The females in my family tree were not mewling victims oppressed by the males in their lives or society. Would the women in your life today put up with a mere male ordering them around? One of my male ancestors wrote a poem about feminine reaction when this is tried. Females couldn't vote? Neither could males who did not own property. No one whines about that "oppression". Society changes because time change.

I'm "lucky" to belong to the secular society? That is funny. I find that I've been working just as hard and doing much of the same as my female ancestors before me. In fact, I think they might argue that I live in the more oppressive society--and would probably win.


Shrug. Go back and take note of of the changes and shifts you made in the discussion point.

First, the argument that because YOU did genealogy, and discovered that YOUR ancestors where somehow more free then you are, invalidates my premise that religion has a historical track record of oppression of woman is ridiculous on it's face. It simply doesn't follow. What you are saying is that your personal (subjective) opinion trump's an objective historical evaluation based on not just historical evidence but current events. Guess what a woman in Iran still gets stoned to death because of adultery is also a woman today. I'm betting she will disagree. As for this being the more "oppressive society", laughable. Your woman ancestors, no matter where they lived couldn't vote. Most couldn't own property unless as a widow. Could be beaten by they're husband without legal recourse, could be raped by there husbands. Etc.,etc. Doesn't matter where they lived.

So forgive me when I take the historical awareness of someone who claimed I mistranslated the original Hebrew text from the sermon on the mount to fit my narrative. When Jesus spoke Aramaic and the early writings where in Greek with a bucket of salt. I had to look that up I will admit. But I wasn't the one claiming that I simply mistranslate stuff. ( Was also factually wrong as what the word was and how it actually translates. The Greek word is πραεῖς (praeis)
It literally means gentle, mild, tame — not “single-mindedly obedient to God”)

As for me moving the goalposts. You are making the claim. Feel free to point out when I didn't engage your exact premise using the quote function. I have when I laid it at your feet.

 

[Quantrill]

Ummm…Yes

Faith is not Facts

Well, faith is a fact, and it produces it's own facts. Science has it's own faith. Does science ever change it's 'facts'? Are science's facts 'absolute'?

It is a fact that faith is required to enter into everlasting life with God and Christ. Faith is faith. It results in something. Leading to knowledge about God and Christ. Leading to facts about God and Christ and His revelation.

Faith is opposed to your scientific method of knowing, of determining 'facts' about the supernatural...because science deals with facts only in the natural, and cannot determine or test facts in the supernatural.

In other words, faith in God and Christ produces another way of knowing. Produces reason and facts in that supernatural world.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

That's right I don't. Neither does anyone else.

So the court analogy mentioned earlier was not fitting.

Again, no one has to make a decision.

But in declining to make a decision concerning God and Christ. a decision has been made.

You say I will not make a decision because I don't believe the testimony or evidence. But the evidence and testimony you require is based upon the scientific method of knowing.

But concerning God and Christ, you enter the courtroom of God. And refusal to make a decision is itself a decision. You refuse the testimony God and Christ and the Bible and Christians have given.

And in the courtroom of God, that is rejection of Jesus Christ. Because to enter eternal life with God and Christ, a decision is made based upon believing that testimony.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Bull.

Jesus died, and then 40 years later Jews started to marvel and just how badly this slimebag conned people. People "wanted to believe" the "son of God" bs. It was "powerful" enough to get them to part with all wealth and freedom (and almost their lives).

The New Testament was written to provide a "religion of the unChosen" to "serve the Chosen."






because it is all BS, always was, always has been. You worship a sick evil person who is dead and never coming back.

No, not bull. Pay attention to what I said. The Jews who wrote the New Testament believed what they wrote.

No, the history of the Jews has always been one of rejecting God. As I told you, they rejected Moses, they rejected Joseph, they rejected and killed the prophets God sent, they rejected and killed Jesus Christ. Their history has been one of rejecting the One God sends. Thus no surprise that they reject the New Testament.

Read (Acts 7) how Stephen is brought into the courtroom of the Jews to answer for his testimony concerning Jesus Christ. But they didn't realize it was they that had been brought into the courtroom of God. And it was they that were declared guilty by God. (Acts 7:51-53)

Quantrill

 

[forkup]

Well, faith is a fact, and it produces it's own facts. Science has it's own faith. Does science ever change it's 'facts'? Are science's facts 'absolute'?

Science doesn't change its facts, that’s why they’re facts. What science does change are its explanations of those facts. Either because more facts become available or because existing explanations are contradicted by better evidence. It is always provisional, and that’s a strength: progress is built into the method.

Faith is the opposite. It doesn’t revise the explanation, it revises reality to fit the belief. It has no externally verifiable facts of its own, only assertions expressed with great (and often unwarranted) certainty.

 

[Quantrill]

Science doesn't change its facts, that’s why they’re facts. What science does change are its explanations of those facts. Either because more facts become available or because existing explanations are contradicted by better evidence. It is always provisional, and that’s a strength: progress is built into the method.

Faith is the opposite. It doesn’t revise the explanation, it revises reality to fit the belief. It has no externally verifiable facts of its own, only assertions expressed with great (and often unwarranted) certainty.

I see, science is willing to learn more about its facts once it gathers more information and change its explanation. Yet if existing explanations are contradicted by better explanations, how is it that the fact is not changed? Science must change it's explanations as it continually learns, thus changing its facts. And science has its own faith. It's faith is in science.

Faith is the opposite of the scientific method of knowing. It doesn't deal with the natural world as science does. Christian faith deals with God, Christ, and the Bible.

You cannot say the Christian faith expresses in 'unwarranted certainty'. You have no way to prove that one way or the other. You can say you don't believe it. But you can't say it is unwarranted.

Quantrill

 

[forkup]

I see, science is willing to learn more about its facts once it gathers more information and change its explanation. Yet if existing explanations are contradicted by better explanations, how is it that the fact is not changed? Science must change it's explanations as it continually learns, thus changing its facts. And science has its own faith. It's faith is in science.

Faith is the opposite of the scientific method of knowing. It doesn't deal with the natural world as science does. Christian faith deals with God, Christ, and the Bible.

You cannot say the Christian faith expresses in 'unwarranted certainty'. You have no way to prove that one way or the other. You can say you don't believe it. But you can't say it is unwarranted.

Quantrill

Because facts are facts. By definition, they don’t change. A fact is not what science is trying to revise, it’s trying to improve its explanations of those facts.

Let me illustrate. You can measure the speed at which an object falls. That's a fact since I measure it. Science can explain why it falls at that speed. The theory with which it does this is robust but it is possible that it's based on flawed reasoning. This won't change the speed at which an object falls but it will change the explanation.

Faith works in the opposite direction. It starts with a conclusion (God is real) and then tries to fit reality to that conclusion as best it can.

And yes, I can call it unwarranted certainty. I do this by asking someone what makes them certain, and then evaluate whether the reasoning is epistemically valid. I have yet to see or hear of anyone provide a justification that meets that standard. That doesn’t mean it’s inherently impossible, but given that believers routinely rely on epistemically unsound reasoning, while never producing a sound alternative in my experience, the probability that such a justification exists is low.

Notice how I frame that: I’m not presenting my position as certain, only as having a probability based on available evidence. That’s how science works too, conclusions are always provisional because they must always remain open to being improved.

 

[EMH]

they rejected Moses

Actually the Levites offed Moses on top of Mt Sinai.

There is another obvious fraud of the Bible, the Old Testament.

Was Moses really a Levite?

Well, after the Israelites crossed Red Sea (or Sea of Reeds) they were attacked by Amalekites. What happens? The Levites and just the Levites fight the Amalek. All the other "tribes" flee and run up a hill. What does "Levite" Moses do? He runs up a hill and hides, does not fight with Levites. He IS NOT A LEVITE. But then he goes up Mt. Sinai, and when he comes down...

HE LOOKS DIFFERENT... duh...

3500 Midianite members of Exodus crowd notice that's not Moses, and get offed for noticing. The "Mt Sinai Treatment," notice too much "Israelite FRAUD" and you get offed. True for 911, CO2 FRAUD, 107 and pretty much every "Israelite FRAUD" today...

no surprise that they reject the New Testament

and it doesn't matter that Jews were there, they actually observed Jesus, and you did not. But you "know better" than those who actually did observe Jesus, because you parrot a 2000 year old book that claims

Sun orbits Earth
Stars are the same size as figs
"Soon" means more than 2000 years from now

and while written by Jews, is completely rejected by Jews.

 

[rightwinger]

Well, faith is a fact, and it produces it's own facts. Science has it's own faith. Does science ever change it's 'facts'? Are science's facts 'absolute'?

 

[Quantrill]

Because facts are facts. By definition, they don’t change. A fact is not what science is trying to revise, it’s trying to improve its explanations of those facts.

Let me illustrate. You can measure the speed at which an object falls. That's a fact since I measure it. Science can explain why it falls at that speed. The theory with which it does this is robust but it is possible that it's based on flawed reasoning. This won't change the speed at which an object falls but it will change the explanation.

Faith works in the opposite direction. It starts with a conclusion (God is real) and then tries to fit reality to that conclusion as best it can.

And yes, I can call it unwarranted certainty. I do this by asking someone what makes them certain, and then evaluate whether the reasoning is epistemically valid. I have yet to see or hear of anyone provide a justification that meets that standard. That doesn’t mean it’s inherently impossible, but given that believers routinely rely on epistemically unsound reasoning, while never producing a sound alternative in my experience, the probability that such a justification exists is low.

Notice how I frame that: I’m not presenting my position as certain, only as having a probability based on available evidence. That’s how science works too, conclusions are always provisional because they must always remain open to being improved.

As you measured the speed at which an object falls, which results in a 'fact', can you measure the speed of how fast an angel can fly? Or, can you determine where God is? Can you measure how long it took God to create Adam and Eve? Is Evolution a 'fact' or 'theory'?

No, you cannot say with unwanted certainty because you are applying your scientific method of knowing to your question. In other word's you reject any answer based upon faith which deals with the supernatural. You may say you don't reject the supernatural, but you do as you reject the only way to know if God, or Christ, or the Bible is true or a fact. You only accept the scientific method. And that is like a plumber trying to learn or test electricity using plumbers tools.

Are you open to faith being the only method to know God, Christ, and the Bible? Because thus far, science can't prove it?

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Actually the Levites offed Moses on top of Mt Sinai.

There is another obvious fraud of the Bible, the Old Testament.

Was Moses really a Levite?

Well, after the Israelites crossed Red Sea (or Sea of Reeds) they were attacked by Amalekites. What happens? The Levites and just the Levites fight the Amalek. All the other "tribes" flee and run up a hill. What does "Levite" Moses do? He runs up a hill and hides, does not fight with Levites. He IS NOT A LEVITE. But then he goes up Mt. Sinai, and when he comes down...

HE LOOKS DIFFERENT... duh...

3500 Midianite members of Exodus crowd notice that's not Moses, and get offed for noticing. The "Mt Sinai Treatment," notice too much "Israelite FRAUD" and you get offed. True for 911, CO2 FRAUD, 107 and pretty much every "Israelite FRAUD" today...







and it doesn't matter that Jews were there, they actually observed Jesus, and you did not. But you "know better" than those who actually did observe Jesus, because you parrot a 2000 year old book that claims

Sun orbits Earth
Stars are the same size as figs
"Soon" means more than 2000 years from now

and while written by Jews, is completely rejected by Jews.

You need to give where you get your information from. If you're trying to use the Bible, give the Book, chapter and verses. Because much of what you said is a lie.

It does matter that Jews were there because when Christ first came, the Jews were His purpose. He came offering that Kingdom to Israel as promised by Moses and the prophets. Some received Him as that Messiah, but the nation as a whole did not.

The nation of Israel did just as their fathers did in the past. They killed the ones sent by God. And what should any expect then that they reject the New Testament also.

Rejected by Jews who reject their own Bible, the Old Testament, as the Word of God. The Jews are in a state of blindness from God due to their unbelief.

I remember reading about the holocaust and a quote was given of a Jew standing in one of those long lines leading to death. He said, 'Where is God?' And I thought, He is in the same place He was when you hung His Son on the Cross.

Quantrill

 

[Hawkins]

If we are being manipulated and made to do things, then we have no free will. Are you sure you want to keep making that argument?

As for your belief that science has no place in understanding the invisible qualities of God, maybe check out Romans 1:19-20.

Science is the study of nature to discover the order within nature so as to be able to make predictions of nature.

"The physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness. It is primarily physicists who have expressed most clearly and forthrightly this pervasive relationship between mind and matter, and indeed at times the primacy of mind." Arthur Eddington wrote, “the stuff of the world is mind‑stuff. The mind‑stuff is not spread in space and time." Von Weizsacker stated what he called his “Identity Hypothesis; that consciousness and matter are different aspects of the same reality. In 1952 Wolfgang Pauli said, "the only acceptable point of view appears to be the one that recognizes both sides of reality -- the quantitative and the qualitative, the physical and the psychical -- as compatible with each other, and can embrace them simultaneously . . . It would be most satisfactory of all if physis and psyche (i.e., matter and mind) could be seen as complementary aspects of the same reality.

Mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is the constant presence of Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create." ~George Wald

That's your misinterpretation of what free will is. Free will is not without temptation. Do you actually know what temptation is? Temptation is just one kind of manipulation. Free will is a decision making process which can be subject to external influence. That's almost common sense. Adam as tempted to eat the fruit under manipulation by no means says that the decision is not from Adam's own free will.

The opposite force is also true, Christians can be guided by the Holy Spirit in the decsion making process. It by no means says the presence of the guidance of the Holy Spirit stopped the function of free will.

Romans 1:19-20
By your understanding, it means our science can explore outside of our own space? Apparently it remains your misunderstanding. The Scripture is not broken, your understanding will.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.


Faith is sometimes the exlusive way for humans to reach a truth, even when it is clearly presented. That's what is said. It's never about how science can discover the invisible as you are trying to advocate!

This is actually rather common among humans. In 2024 (not 2020) it's clearly presented that Trump won the votes. Do you have the scientific evidence as an individual? You don't. You have zero evidence about the votes of any US presidents in history! You faith leads to the presentation of truth which is clearly presented to you! That's how reality works.

Other than faith, there's nothing humans (the majority) can rely on to reach a truth such as the voting result of the election! Get a clue! Now you (I mean any single human embracing that mentality) are the proof that you (your mind) is under manipulation for you to fallaciously conclude that "you have the evidence of the votes of any US presisdent". You have the free will to keep that (fallacious) decision though! That's how your free will works! Again, get a clue (on the difference between a manipulation and free will)!

You clearly know (or can know) who the presidents are in US history, it's not by science nor evidence but by faith! How many votes did George Washington get? To this question, your science is a joke! Only your faith together with a piece of human testimony (writing/recording) shall possibly work! (unfold yourself from the manipulation to correctly perceive what truth could mean). The god of this world has clearly blinded the minds of men like you!