Why doesn't meat help meat eaters be healthy?

[buttercup]

In honor of Bob Barker, I changed my sig.

 

[Woodznutz]

Well it was obvious that the other one has been trolling. But with Woodnutz, he seemed sincere, and since he's been mostly civil, I assumed he isn't just trolling. But now, for him to say things that are so demonstrably false and upside-down, I have to conclude he must be just trolling at this point.

Nothing that you and CarlinAnnHarbor have thrown against the wall is sticking. I will submit a scripture that you both will have hard time explaining away: Romans 14: 1-3 (NIV).

14 "Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them."

This should put to rest your Biblical argument against eating meat.

 

[elektra]

The extreme right is also overweight.

only if the extreme right is democrat lesbians

 

[peacefan]

Although doctors say that meat is healthy, I do not know anyone who would benefit from meat-eating to be healthy. For example, my neighbor, a meat-eater, has disgusting skin, cellulite, and hardly climbs to the 3rd floor, and she is only 30. Plus she smells like dog.
Maybe she is affected by ptomaine in her intestines? Why can't meat eaters be healthy even though they have a "healthy diet"?

don't judge the world by the example of 1 neighbor.

 

[PredFan]

A brain poisoned by cadaveric poisons causes you to hallucinate.
The situation is similar for alcoholics. They think that alcohol helps them to be healthy, but this until they die of cirrhosis.

Yeah sure, I'm imagining good health. Thankfully, my wife, my children, my friends, and my doctors are all hallucinating my good health too.

 

[rupol2000]

Yeah sure, I'm imagining good health. Thankfully, my wife, my children, my friends, and my doctors are all hallucinating my good health too.

They are also poisoned by this poison. But most likely just flattering the old farting meat-eater.

 

[buttercup]

Nothing that you and CarlinAnnHarbor have thrown against the wall is sticking. I will submit a scripture that you both will have hard time explaining away: Romans 14: 1-3 (NIV).

14 "Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them."

This should put to rest your Biblical argument against eating meat.

^This is a perfect example of cherry-picking a verse that you THINK refutes veganism, but it actually doesn't at all, when you understand what it's really about.

The context was about idolatry and eating food that had been offered to idols. NOT ethical vegetarianism or veganism.

To give a backdrop, here is the rule that people didn't want to break:

"...that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well."

Acts 15:29​

It was very clear that it was not acceptable to consume anything that had been offered to idols.

The question that was being discussed was: what about after the fact?

Some of the items that pagans initially offered to false gods may have later been sold in the market.

So the question was: What if they sell it at the meat market, or what if someone is at the house of an unbeliever and they serve you something that may have been offered to idols? Then what?

In other words, how much caution should a believer take in order to avoid committing this idolatry of eating food offered to idols?

When it came to this particular question, there was a division at that time.

One side thought they should exercise more caution. They did not want to take the chance of eating anything that MAY have been offered to false gods.

And there was another group whose position was "unless I know for sure that it had been offered to idols, I'm going to eat it."

Paul was trying to be a peacemaker, and to bring unity, and he was saying that each of these groups should not have contempt for the other.

So that particular group was new believers who wanted to take extra caution, it had nothing to do with vegetarians or vegans who abstain from flesh for ethical reasons.

You should know that when we look at a verse, we need to look at the Bible as a whole.

Something you keep ignoring is that God's true intent for all creation and perfect will is made clear both in the beginning (Genesis 1:29-30) and in the prophetic scriptures about the future (like Isaiah 11:6-9)

If that Romans passage that you cherry-picked really was saying what you thought it was saying, then it would be bashing and putting down GOD's idea, GOD's intent for all creation, as stated above.

Do you really think that Paul would be bashing and insulting God's ideal? Obviously not.

 

[buttercup]

I am on the Carnivore/Keto diet. Have been for almost two years. I no longer have to take my blood pressure medicine, my cholesterol is normal now, I have no more swelling in my ankles. I'm 67 and haven't been this healthy in decades.

Did you cut out processed food? Because from what I've heard, people who go on the 'Keto' diet stop eating crap, and of course that is going to make anyone feel better and healthier.

The thing about the Keto diet is that although it may have good short term benefits, in the long term it's the exact opposite.

A number of people who are on that diet for many years end up having heart attacks, due to clogged arteries from all that fat they're consuming.

It's basically just a rehash of fad diets from the past, similar to Atkins, that end up being disastrous in the long run.

Decades of scientific studies all over the world have shown that a diet high in meat raises one's risk for heart disease. Of course those who stand to lose money keep trying to disprove that overwhelming consensus. Don't fall for the lies pushed by the very industries that profit from those diets.

 

[braalian]

Who the hell cares what the Bible says, anyways?

I’m not going to base what I can and cannot eat on religion. That’s stupid.

 

[Woodznutz]

^This is a perfect example of cherry-picking a verse that you THINK refutes veganism, but it actually doesn't at all, when you understand what it's really about.

The context was about idolatry and eating food that had been offered to idols. NOT ethical vegetarianism or veganism.

To give a backdrop, here is the rule that people didn't want to break:

"...that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well."​

​

Acts 15:29​

It was very clear that it was not acceptable to consume anything that had been offered to idols.

The question that was being discussed was: what about after the fact?

Some of the items that pagans initially offered to false gods may have later been sold in the market.

So the question was: What if they sell it at the meat market, or what if someone is at the house of an unbeliever and they serve you something that may have been offered to idols? Then what?

In other words, how much caution should a believer take in order to avoid committing this idolatry of eating food offered to idols?

When it came to this particular question, there was a division at that time.

One side thought they should exercise more caution. They did not want to take the chance of eating anything that MAY have been offered to false gods.

And there was another group whose position was "unless I know for sure that it had been offered to idols, I'm going to eat it."

Paul was trying to be a peacemaker, and to bring unity, and he was saying that each of these groups should not have contempt for the other.

So that particular group was new believers who wanted to take extra caution, it had nothing to do with vegetarians or vegans who abstain from flesh for ethical reasons.

You should know that when we look at a verse, we need to look at the Bible as a whole.

Something you keep ignoring is that God's true intent for all creation and perfect will is made clear both in the beginning (Genesis 1:29-30) and in the prophetic scriptures about the future (like Isaiah 11:6-9)

If that Romans passage that you cherry-picked really was saying what you thought it was saying, then it would be bashing and putting down GOD's idea, GOD's intent for all creation, as stated above.

Do you really think that Paul would be bashing and insulting God's ideal? Obviously not.

It's not my intention to "refute" vegetarianism, as it is a valid lifestyle. My point is that Christians are not bound or compelled in any way by God to abstain from eating meat. God allows meat eating and proscribes which meats are suitable for us to eat.

You are "cherry picking" by trying to restrict certain scriptures to narrow meanings that fit your opinion. Recall when Jesus said that it's not what goes into a man's mouth that defiles him but what comes out of his mouth. He clearly meant more than common dirt on a person's hands, which would hardly make him spiritually unclean and unlikely to make him sick.

Again, you must look at the entirety of scripture on the subject, from the time of Abel up to the time of Christ to see the relationship of God's people with their animals.

 

[PredFan]

Did you cut out processed food? Because from what I've heard, people who go on the 'Keto' diet stop eating crap, and of course that is going to make anyone feel better and healthier.

Mostly, yes. I read labels.

The thing about the Keto diet is that although it may have good short term benefits, in the long term it's the exact opposite.

Not true.

A number of people who are on that diet for many years end up having heart attacks, due to clogged arteries from all that fat they're consuming.

Again not true. If you are doing it correctly you won't. For example, I went through a stretch where I was eating a very high fat diet. The reason was because I discovered that you can gain weight eating too much protein. I ate fewer calories and got almost 50% of my total calories from fat. I was doing that to force myself into ketosis. Eating a lot of calories, even if it only consists of protein and fat, will keep you out of ketosis. Anyway, I was due for a check up and had blood drawn and my total cholesterol, HDL, & LDH were all in normal limits, and my HDL was actually high normal. As I stated earlier, I've been doing it for many years, and during that time I have had every cardiac test done that my cardiologist could think of. My vessels are squeeky clean.

Odds are high that if you do this diet and have a heart attack, it's because you are either A, cheating a lot, or B, neglecting your health in other ways such as smoking, etc.

It's basically just a rehash of fad diets from the past, similar to Atkins, that end up being disastrous in the long run.

Nope, I started it when it was called Atkins instead of Keto. Not disastrous at all, in fact it's one of the healthiest diets around.

Decades of scientific studies all over the world have shown that a diet high in meat raises one's risk for heart disease.

Untrue. If you look closely at the actual and recent studies, they will show you that these diets high in meat are also high in carbohydrates.

Of course those who stand to lose money keep trying to disprove that overwhelming consensus.

Just as in the global warming scam, there is no consensus.

Don't fall for the lies pushed by the very industries that profit from those diets.

What about the industries that profit from vegetarian diets? Low Fat Diets? So-called Mediterranean Diets?

 

[PredFan]

In honor of Bob Barker, I changed my sig.

Speaking of Bob Barker, I can't believe he lived as close to 100 as possible without going over.

 

[buttercup]

Who the hell cares what the Bible says, anyways?

I’m not going to base what I can and cannot eat on religion. That’s stupid.

Christians do. I was talking to a professed Christian, and he has wanted to discuss it. I wouldn't post those things to an unbeliever, obviously that wouldn't matter to them.

 

[buttercup]

It's not my intention to "refute" vegetarianism, as it is a valid lifestyle. My point is that Christians are not bound or compelled in any way by God to abstain from eating meat. God allows meat eating and proscribes which meats are suitable for us to eat.

You are "cherry picking" by trying to restrict certain scriptures to narrow meanings that fit your opinion. Recall when Jesus said that it's not what goes into a man's mouth that defiles him but what comes out of his mouth. He clearly meant more than common dirt on a person's hands, which would hardly make him spiritually unclean and unlikely to make him sick.

Again, you must look at the entirety of scripture on the subject, from the time of Abel up to the time of Christ to see the relationship of God's people with their animals.

See, this is where going deeper matters.

First, again, you keep ignoring God's CLEAR ideal, and perfect will, which is stated in Genesis 1, as well as the prophetic scriptures about the day when God restores that world of peace and harmony which is what HE wanted in the first place.

You have not refuted that, because you can't. So you've chosen to ignore it, over and over and over again.

Everything in between the pre-fall world and the future restored world is a result of SIN in this fallen world.

So the question is: How should we, as Christians, live in this fallen world?

Now here's what you're also ignoring, over and over and over again.

1. God commands us to be MERCIFUL, repeatedly, throughout the Bible. There is nothing merciful about terrorizing and slitting the throat of an innocent animal just so you can satisfy your fleshly desire, when you don't have to.
   
   
2. God commands us to do all things in LOVE. Love is selfless, not selfish. There is nothing loving about taking the life of an innocent animal, when you don't have to.
   
   
3. As Christians, Jesus told us to pray for (to want) God's kingdom to come and will to be done on earth as it is in heaven. So that means in this fallen world we as Christians are not supposed to be just like the rest of the world and love the imperfect fallen things of this world. We are supposed to be KINGDOM people, we are supposed to want God's perfect (heavenly) will, as opposed to what God may or may not permit in this fallen world.
   
   This "on earth as it is in heaven" statement should put to rest your entire position, because it clearly shows that in the interim time, in this temporary fallen world, as Christians we should be aiming for God's perfect will, as opposed to God's permissive will. Or as opposed to looking for loopholes to try to justify something that is clearly NOT God's perfect will. It's about living in the heavenly will of God here on earth as in heaven, and it goes along with Jesus' command in Matthew 5:48: "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

You keep stating things that are demonstrably false. AGAIN, it is not my "opinion" that God wants us to be merciful. It is not my "opinion" that God calls us to do all things in love. It is not my "opinion" that we should treat others the way we would want to be treated. Those are clear commands, in black and white.

And you're also projecting, in a major way, when you say "you must look at the entirety of scripture on the subject" because that is precisely what you're not doing.

You're not looking at the bigger picture. You're consistently ignoring God's perfect will and numerous commands.

So again, you have not refuted anything I've said here. You have only ignored most of what I've said, and instead brought up a handful of scriptures that are always brought up by flesh eating Christians in these discussions. Scriptures that are usually completely out of context, and certainly do not outweigh God's perfect will, which is peace and harmony between humans and animals - not selfishness, violence and needless killing.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Who the hell cares what the Bible says, anyways?

I’m not going to base what I can and cannot eat on religion. That’s stupid.

You are in the RELIGION thread.

Or did you forget that.

When you're down here, you're just gonna have to expect discussions from a BIBLICAL perspective.

If that's a problem for you, spend your time in other forumsm

 

[Woodznutz]

See, this is where going deeper matters.

First, again, you keep ignoring God's CLEAR ideal, and perfect will, which is stated in Genesis 1, as well as the prophetic scriptures about the day when God restores that world of peace and harmony which is what HE wanted in the first place.

You have not refuted that, because you can't. So you've chosen to ignore it, over and over and over again.

Everything in between the pre-fall world and the future restored world is a result of SIN in this fallen world.

So the question is: How should we, as Christians, live in this fallen world?

Now here's what you're also ignoring, over and over and over again.

1. God commands us to be MERCIFUL, repeatedly, throughout the Bible. There is nothing merciful about terrorizing and slitting the throat of an innocent animal just so you can satisfy your fleshly desire, when you don't have to.
   
   
2. God commands us to do all things in LOVE. Love is selfless, not selfish. There is nothing loving about taking the life of an innocent animal, when you don't have to.
   
   
3. As Christians, Jesus told us to pray for (to want) God's kingdom to come and will to be done on earth as it is in heaven. So that means in this fallen world we as Christians are not supposed to be just like the rest of the world and love the imperfect fallen things of this world. We are supposed to be KINGDOM people, we are supposed to want God's perfect (heavenly) will, as opposed to what God may or may not permit in this fallen world.
   
   This "on earth as it is in heaven" statement should put to rest your entire position, because it clearly shows that in the interim time, in this temporary fallen world, as Christians we should be aiming for God's perfect will, as opposed to God's permissive will. Or as opposed to looking for loopholes to try to justify something that is clearly NOT God's perfect will. It's about living in the heavenly will of God here on earth as in heaven, and it goes along with Jesus' command in Matthew 5:48: "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

You keep stating things that are demonstrably false. AGAIN, it is not my "opinion" that God wants us to be merciful. It is not my "opinion" that God calls us to do all things in love. It is not my "opinion" that we should treat others the way we would want to be treated. Those are clear commands, in black and white.

And you're also projecting, in a major way, when you say "you must look at the entirety of scripture on the subject" because that is precisely what you're not doing.

You're not looking at the bigger picture. You're consistently ignoring God's perfect will and numerous commands.

So again, you have not refuted anything I've said here. You have only ignored most of what I've said, and instead brought up a handful of scriptures that are always brought up by flesh eating Christians in these discussions. Scriptures that are usually completely out of context, and certainly do not outweigh God's perfect will, which is peace and harmony between humans and animals - not selfishness, violence and needless killing.

Is this you?

1Timothy 4:

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith...

...commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer."

I rest my case.

 

[braalian]

You are in the RELIGION thread.

Or did you forget that.

When you're down here, you're just gonna have to expect discussions from a BIBLICAL perspective.

If that's a problem for you, spend your time in other forumsm

Actually, this is the “health and lifestyle” thread

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Actually, this is the “health and lifestyle” thread

Yep. My mistake.

 

[buttercup]

Is this you?

1Timothy 4:

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith...

...commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer."

I rest my case.

I noticed that you have a pattern of completely ignoring everything I post, NEVER addressing anything, but instead just coming back with more misapplied verses.

Sorry but in any debate that's not the way things work. FIRST address the things I've posted, and then I'll answer your posts. I should have done that earlier, because this is the 4th or 5th time (at least) that you've completely ignored what is posted to you, while expecting others to reply to you.

Better yet, please go back to post #809, CarlinAnnArbor's post which summarizes everything you keep dodging. Refute those points first, then (if time permits) we can continue. Thanks!

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Is this you?

1Timothy 4:

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith...

...commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer."

I rest my case.

Biblical Veganism: An Examination of 1 Timothy 4:1–8

Abstract. 1 Timothy 4:1–8 is often used as a proof text against veganism; this is especially true among certain fundamentalist Christian groups and conspiracy theorists. This article argues that a closer look at its linguistic, historical, and theological context reveals that Paul is in reality...

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