Why doesn't meat help meat eaters be healthy?

[Woodznutz]

I noticed that you have a pattern of completely ignoring everything I post, NEVER addressing anything, but instead just coming back with more misapplied verses.

Sorry but in any debate that's not the way things work. FIRST address the things I've posted, and then I'll answer your posts. I should have done that earlier, because this is the 4th or 5th time (at least) that you've completely ignored what is posted to you, while expecting others to reply to you.

Better yet, please go back to post #809, CarlinAnnArbor's post which summarizes everything you keep dodging. Refute those points first, then (if time permits) we can continue. Thanks!

Let's be clear. Of course, we won't eat meat in the Kingdom as there won't be animals. But animals are here now, and we can eat them. If you don't want to eat them that's ok. But don't condemn we who do.

 

[Woodznutz]

Biblical Veganism: An Examination of 1 Timothy 4:1–8

Abstract. 1 Timothy 4:1–8 is often used as a proof text against veganism; this is especially true among certain fundamentalist Christian groups and conspiracy theorists. This article argues that a closer look at its linguistic, historical, and theological context reveals that Paul is in reality...

scholarlypublishingcollective.org

Paul is speaking of our day, not his day.

 

[buttercup]

You position isn't backed by scripture, mine is. I can't refute your opinion, which is all you've presented, but I can disagree with it.

Hilariously and demonstrably false. Everything I've been saying I've been backing up with scripture, and anyone can verify that.

You on the other hand have been consistently IGNORING nearly everything I've posted, and then you expect me to address your posts? That's not how sincere debate works. But even still, I've responded to your handful of misapplied verses that are always brought up by flesh eating christians in discussions like this.

Again, I have to conclude you've been trolling.... either that or you are simply a dishonest person.

Because again....

• It is not my "opinion" that when God created the world, which was HIS ideal, all of creation were herbivores. (Genesis 1:29-30.)
  
  
• It is not my "opinion" that God is going to restore that original peaceful world that was HIS intent in the first place. (Isaiah 11:6-9)
  
  
• It is not my "opinion" that Jesus taught us to want and pray for God's perfect will, on earth as it is in heaven. (Matthew 6:10)
  
  
• It is not my "opinion" that throughout the Bible God commands us to be merciful. (Luke 6:36, etc.)
  
  
• It is not my "opinion" that as Christians we are commanded to love selflessly, as opposed to being led by our own selfish fleshly desires. (Phil 2:3, etc.)
  
  
• It is not my "opinion that cruelty is a sin (Proverbs 12:10) and it is not my "opinion" that the modern animal industries are inherently cruel, so by participating in it, you're paying for cruelty and abuse.
  
  
• It is not my "opinion" that we are also commanded to treat others the way we would want to be treated. (Matthew 7:12)
  
  
• It is not my "opinion" that we are commanded to do all things in love. (1 Cor. 16:14)
  
  
• It is not my "opinion" that as Christians we are told to have an eternal (as opposed to temporal, worldly) perspective. (Col 3:2, Phil 3:19)

Now, are you going to lie again and claim that what I've been saying is not backed up scripturally?

Are you going to address ANY of the points I've raised on this thread? Because for the most part you've ignored nearly ALL of it.

And then on top of ignoring nearly everything, you have been dishonest by claiming all of this is just my "opinion" and not backed up scripturally.

 

[Woodznutz]

Hilariously and demonstrably false. Everything I've been saying I've been backing up with scripture, and anyone can verify that.

You on the other hand have been consistently IGNORING nearly everything I've posted, and then you expect me to address your posts? That's not how sincere debate works. But even still, I've responded to your handful of misapplied verses that are always brought up by flesh eating christians in discussions like this.

Again, I have to conclude you've been trolling.... either that or you are simply a dishonest person.

Because again....

• It is not my "opinion" that when God created the world, which was HIS ideal, all of creation were herbivores. (Genesis 1:29-30.)
  
  
• It is not my "opinion" that God is going to restore that original peaceful world that was HIS intent in the first place. (Isaiah 11:6-9)
  
  
• It is not my "opinion" that Jesus taught us to want and pray for God's perfect will, on earth as it is in heaven. (Matthew 6:10)
  
  
• It is not my "opinion" that throughout the Bible God commands us to be merciful. (Luke 6:36, etc.)
  
  
• It is not my "opinion" that as Christians we are commanded to love selflessly, as opposed to being led by our own selfish fleshly desires. (Phil 2:3, etc.)
  
  
• It is not my "opinion that cruelty is a sin (Proverbs 12:10) and it is not my "opinion" that the modern animal industries are inherently cruel, so by participating in it, you're paying for cruelty and abuse.
  
  
• It is not my "opinion" that we are also commanded to treat others the way we would want to be treated. (Matthew 7:12)
  
  
• It is not my "opinion" that we are commanded to do all things in love. (1 Cor. 16:14)
  
  
• It is not my "opinion" that as Christians we are told to have an eternal (as opposed to temporal, worldly) perspective. (Col 3:2, Phil 3:19)

Now, are you going to lie again and claim that what I've been saying is not backed up scripturally?

Are you going to address ANY of the points I've raised on this thread? Because for the most part you've ignored nearly ALL of it.

And then on top of ignoring nearly everything, you have been dishonest by claiming all of this is just my "opinion" and not backed up scripturally.

With all due respect I have a different opinion on the matter. If we are 'commanded' to not eat meat show me the specific scriptures.

It is clear that you are more righteous than I am (I'm just a work in progress), that should satisfy you.

 

[buttercup]

With all due respect I have a different opinion on the matter. If we are 'commanded' to not eat meat show me the specific scriptures.

It is clear that you are more righteous than I am, that should satisfy you.

Sigh. Look, this is a fallen world. Obviously God allows a number of things to occur that are not what He wants.

Just because God temporarily allows bad things to happen doesn't mean He wants us to embrace those things. On the contrary, for the umpteenth time, Jesus taught us to want and pray for GOD's perfect will on earth as it is in heaven.

So in case you misunderstood, I never claimed that we are not allowed to eat flesh. I've been saying it's not what God wants, God wants us to be prepared for His coming kingdom and to live with an on earth as it is in heaven mindset.

As for your comment about who is more 'righteous'... I never claimed to be righteous, I've got a ton of growing to do, I'm still a work in progress and I'm fully aware of that. But one thing I WILL say is this:

Mercy and compassion is better than callousness and apathy.
Peace and gentleness is better than needless violence and brutality.
Giving animals respect and dignity is better than exploitation.
Love is better than indifference.
Letting others live the life God gave them is better than needless killing.

If you disagree with those things, then please go ahead and try to refute it. Good luck with that.

 

[buttercup]

Let's be clear. Of course, we won't eat meat in the Kingdom as there won't be animals. But animals are here now, and we can eat them. If you don't want to eat them that's ok. But don't condemn we who do.

You edited your reply after I had replied to it. I just noticed that, so I want to reply to what you said above in the edited reply.

Sorry but you are simply wrong.

First, many Christians have a misconception of heaven. It's not going to be some place up in the clouds. We (believers, those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life) will be living on the New Earth, which is basically heaven and earth becoming one, and everything will be made new.

Contrary to what you said, YES, there will be animals in the Kingdom, just as there were animals who lived peacefully in the pre-fall world. Animals have ALWAYS been part of God's design. God even included them in covenants (Gen. 9:16, Hosea 2:18)

So getting back to what you said, Isaiah 65 directly contradicts your statement "there won't be animals" in the Kingdom.

I'm going to post parts of Isaiah 65 for you, and I'll bold the pertinent parts....

17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.

18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.

19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.

21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.

25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,
The lion shall eat straw like the ox,
And dust shall be the serpent’s food.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,”
Says the Lord.​

That's just one example. There are other scriptures I could bring up that show animals will be in heaven / New Earth, but we've already taken this thread waaaay off topic, and I doubt others want to read a bible study here, so for now I'll leave it at that.

In light of the scriptures I just posted above, I sincerely hope you re-think your entire perspective of animals. Because they will indeed be in the Kingdom, and they definitely will NOT be considered mere objects or 'resources' as they are in this messed up, fallen world. That's not a condemnation, but an exhortation.

 

[Blues Man]

Without animal manures you have to use chemical fertilizers and pesticides.

Organically raise animals don't have those chemicals in their flesh.

But let's get real. Who do you want to stop eating meat? Americans, Christians, Chinese, Europeans...just who?

Where did I ever tell anyone to stop eating meat? . Please, quote the post.

I said that factory farming is cruel and that meat is not necessary

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Is this you?

1Timothy 4:

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith...

...commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth

You might want to check several translations. Here is the NKJV

They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving

And what did God give YOU for food?

And this is the KJV of Genesis 1:29

And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

I already know this will go in one ear and out the other for you. You want what you want. You will twist the Scriptures to your own destruction.

While it MAY not be a sin for a Christian to take a life and eat that living being God created, it IS a sin to participate in the torture and terrorizing of any living creation of God. You know the truth about our "meat production system.". It is from the devil and not from God.

You condemn yourself when you admit you understand God's will for Man in Eden and that His will will be enforced again when Christ returns.

Yet as a Christian you CHOOSE the devil (as a "Christian") because you admit this is Satans world. Yet God has CALLED YOU OUT OF THE WORLD and not to be part of this world's evil cultural practices.

 

[Redfish]

Although doctors say that meat is healthy, I do not know anyone who would benefit from meat-eating to be healthy. For example, my neighbor, a meat-eater, has disgusting skin, cellulite, and hardly climbs to the 3rd floor, and she is only 30. Plus she smells like dog.
Maybe she is affected by ptomaine in her intestines? Why can't meat eaters be healthy even though they have a "healthy diet"?

there is more to it than simply whether one eats meat or not. your ignorance is on full display.

 

[Redfish]

Where did I ever tell anyone to stop eating meat? . Please, quote the post.

I said that factory farming is cruel and that meat is not necessary

the human body was designed to eat a variety of things----------including meat. God got it right.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

the human body was designed to eat a variety of things----------including meat. God got it right.

So that you will again be FORCED TO CHOOSE.

God gives Man CHOICES, to see if he will choose to OBEY or REBEL

You CAN eat pork. But He SPECIFICALLY forbids you from doing so. Yet most of the world, including many "christians" choose to DISOBEY over obedience

 

[Blues Man]

the human body was designed to eat a variety of things----------including meat. God got it right.

meat is not necessary no matter what god you worship.

Factory farming is cruel and I choose not to support that cruelty.

 

[Woodznutz]

You edited your reply after I had replied to it. I just noticed that, so I want to reply to what you said above in the edited reply.

Sorry but you are simply wrong.

First, many Christians have a misconception of heaven. It's not going to be some place up in the clouds. We (believers, those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life) will be living on the New Earth, which is basically heaven and earth becoming one, and everything will be made new.

Contrary to what you said, YES, there will be animals in the Kingdom, just as there were animals who lived peacefully in the pre-fall world. Animals have ALWAYS been part of God's design. God even included them in covenants (Gen. 9:16, Hosea 2:18)

So getting back to what you said, Isaiah 65 directly contradicts your statement "there won't be animals" in the Kingdom.

I'm going to post parts of Isaiah 65 for you, and I'll bold the pertinent parts....

​

17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;​

And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.​

​

18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;​

For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,​

And her people a joy.​

​

19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,​

And joy in My people;​

The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,​

Nor the voice of crying.​

​

21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;​

They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.​

​

25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,​

The lion shall eat straw like the ox,​

And dust shall be the serpent’s food.​

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,”​

Says the Lord.​

That's just one example. There are other scriptures I could bring up that show animals will be in heaven / New Earth, but we've already taken this thread waaaay off topic, and I doubt others want to read a bible study here, so for now I'll leave it at that.

In light of the scriptures I just posted above, I sincerely hope you re-think your entire perspective of animals. Because they will indeed be in the Kingdom, and they definitely will NOT be considered mere objects or 'resources' as they are in this messed up, fallen world. That's not a condemnation, but an exhortation.

You are citing millennial prophecies. Savage beasts represent demons. When the demons are restrained those animals will be gentled. However, will animals exist in the kingdom after the millennium? And if earth is to return to the original Eden (not the one in Genesis) I don't think there will be animals.

 

[Woodznutz]

the human body was designed to eat a variety of things----------including meat. God got it right.

True. My digestion is very good. After you chew it up good it's all chemistry from there on down.

 

[Woodznutz]

meat is not necessary no matter what god you worship.

Factory farming is cruel and I choose not to support that cruelty.

The meat industry does seem to be cruel in some respects, but these animals were created to be killed and eaten.

2 Peter 2:12
But these, as natural brute beasts, (which are) made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

 

[Blues Man]

The meat industry does seem to be cruel in some respects, but these animals were created to be killed and eaten.

That's where we disagree.

We choose to eat animals and there was a time when it was necessary for survival but it is not necessary anymore therefore the cruelty of factory animal farming is not necessary either.

Now we have people like you justifying unnecessary cruelty for no other reason than your personal pleasure.

 

[Woodznutz]

That's where we disagree.

We choose to eat animals and there was a time when it was necessary for survival but it is not necessary anymore therefore the cruelty of factory animal farming is not necessary either.

Now we have people like you justifying unnecessary cruelty for no other reason than your personal pleasure.

Factory farming is necessary thanks to the urbanization of the population. But, that doesn't change the 'brute' nature of the animals, as Peter describes, in case you missed it above.

2 Peter 2:12
But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Brute beasts are unaware of their treatment and less aware that they will be killed and eaten. It is man that is aware of his supposed cruelty, if indeed he deems it to be cruelty. Bloody and gory yes, but cruel?

 

[Woodznutz]

Where did I ever tell anyone to stop eating meat? . Please, quote the post.

I said that factory farming is cruel and that meat is not necessary

Then leave it at that. Don't go on and on about it.

 

[rupol2000]

the human body was designed to eat a variety of things----------including meat. God got it right.

This is the god of the forest savages, the noble peoples despised the forest savages

The sky has cast a curse on them, their bodies are ugly and their skin is stained.

 

[Unkotare]

meat is not necessary no matter what god you worship.

Factory farming is cruel and I choose not to support that cruelty.

Without the significant increase in animal protein that sparked evolutionary change, everyone would still be ape-stupid like you.