Why does the Rightwing Conservatives Hate Unions?

[SFC Ollie]

Oh yeah, SUPPORT THOSE UNIONS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUwy_Ot1d4I

Yep Union thugs have had none Union minimum wage protesters at a local non-union store here for the past two years. The employees think they are nuts, they all love their work and the owner donates about $10,000 per year to local charities.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Meanwhile Wall Street got all their money back from the U.S. taxpayer, and the corporate media(FoxLies) and the Republicans are saying that the teachers(the teachers!) are our enemy.

Is this a great country or what?

the Teachers OR the Unions?.....i bet you cant back what you said up Chris....

 

[Chris]

When Reagan got in office he immediately reduced taxes for the wealthy and doubled the National Debt. When Bush the Lesser got into office, he did the exact same thing.

The result of this is that it effectively transferred $11 trillion dollars from the middle class taxpayer to the wealthy. Probably the greatest attack on the middle class in the history of the United States.

Combine this with the derivative Ponzi scheme that Wall Street ran under the Bush administration, and the entire wealth of the middle class was stolen from right under their noses.

 

[Charles_Main]

For me, as a conservative it is not about Hating Unions. That is just a left wing lie meant to inflame people.

It is about understanding that in some cases Unions Over reach. In their pursuit of getting everything the worker wants, they lose site of the fact that Business must remain Profitable.

I also am troubled by the ties between labor and 1 political Party in this country.

Everyone understands that Organized Labor has a place, and played(plays) and important role in America, However the open minded have to recognize that to much of a good thing is not good.

A big part of the sucking sound of US jobs going over seas can be blamed on Union Demands.

A balance must be found.

The problem of Over reaching Unions, who do not care about the Effects their Demands will have on Profitability are child's play. Compared to the problems with Public Sector Unions. With their Alliance with the Democrat Party, and the lack of Profit Motivation of the Government people negotiating with them. Has lead to ridicules unrealistic and unsustainable Contracts for Public Sector Employees.

It is not heartless and Evil to recognize that, it is for the Greater good that we must.

 

[Chris]

For me, as a conservative it is not about Hating Unions. That is just a left wing lie meant to inflame people.

It is about understanding that in some cases Unions Over reach. In their pursuit of getting everything the worker wants, they lose site of the fact that Business must remain Profitable.

I also am troubled by the ties between labor and 1 political Party in this country.

Everyone understands that Organized Labor has a place, and played(plays) and important role in America, However the open minded have to recognize that to much of a good thing is not good.

A big part of the sucking sound of US jobs going over seas can be blamed on Union Demands.

A balance must be found.

The problem of Over reaching Unions, who do not care about the Effects their Demands will have on Profitability are child's play. Compared to the problems with Public Sector Unions. With their Alliance with the Democrat Party, and the lack of Profit Motivation of the Government people negotiating with them. Has lead to ridicules unrealistic and unsustainable Contracts for Public Sector Employees.

It is not heartless and Evil to recognize that, it is for the Greater good that we must.

Charles is invoking the Big Lie.

Union membership has gone from 36% in 1954 to 11.9% today.

The jobs went overseas as union membership shrank by two thirds.

Fewer unions means fewer jobs.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Just to review, the union will give in to the financial demands.

This is about destroying collective bargaining, pure and simple.

This is one more reason the Republican Party is pure evil.

Chris.....yes or no....is the Democratic Party then pure GOOD?.....

 

[Chris]

If you want to argue about what sent jobs overseas, the lack of national health insurance in America, put American industries at a tremendous competitive disadvantage since every other industrialized nation in the world has national health insurance. If fact Toyota recently located a plant in Canada instead of the United States in part because of lower health insurance costs in Canada.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Just to review, the union will give in to the financial demands.

This is about destroying collective bargaining, pure and simple.

This is one more reason the Republican Party is pure evil.

Posts like this, one more reason you have ZERO credibilty......

The truth has no credibility with the right. If facts get in the way of your pre scripted talking points......ignore the facts

Rw.....do you agree with CHRIS?.....is the Republican Party...Pure Evil?....

 

[Harry Dresden]

All the Unions are today is a arm of the Democrat-Progressive-Commie party. They suck off dues from their members to pay for their Candidate of choice, which today it is Obama. He is bought and paid for by the Unions.

I say Bust the hell out the Unions. They have sucked our country dry and driven jobs out of the country with their OUTRAGAES demands.

And I say this from experience. I worked out of a couple of Unions and what they do to the Employer if they can get away it isn't Pretty.

did you say that when they got you a raise?.....just askin....

 

[SFC Ollie]

For me, as a conservative it is not about Hating Unions. That is just a left wing lie meant to inflame people.

It is about understanding that in some cases Unions Over reach. In their pursuit of getting everything the worker wants, they lose site of the fact that Business must remain Profitable.

I also am troubled by the ties between labor and 1 political Party in this country.

Everyone understands that Organized Labor has a place, and played(plays) and important role in America, However the open minded have to recognize that to much of a good thing is not good.

A big part of the sucking sound of US jobs going over seas can be blamed on Union Demands.

A balance must be found.

The problem of Over reaching Unions, who do not care about the Effects their Demands will have on Profitability are child's play. Compared to the problems with Public Sector Unions. With their Alliance with the Democrat Party, and the lack of Profit Motivation of the Government people negotiating with them. Has lead to ridicules unrealistic and unsustainable Contracts for Public Sector Employees.

It is not heartless and Evil to recognize that, it is for the Greater good that we must.

Charles is invoking the Big Lie.

Union membership has gone from 36% in 1954 to 11.9% today.

The jobs went overseas as union membership shrank by two thirds.

Fewer unions means fewer jobs.

Union membership sank because they negotiated themselves right out of jobs.

 

[SFC Ollie]

If you want to argue about what sent jobs overseas, the lack of national health insurance in America, put American industries at a tremendous competitive disadvantage since every other industrialized nation in the world has national health insurance. If fact Toyota recently located a plant in Canada instead of the United States in part because of lower health insurance costs in Canada.

Which is what the Congress was supposed to do, lower costs, instead they went for more control. To bad that doesn't help much.

 

[Harry Dresden]

you notice how Chris dances over questions asked of him that he either cant answer...OR does not want to.....does it in every thread.....

 

[kaz]

I don't hate Unions, I hate government giving them artificial power over the economy. They have used that to destroy the State of Michigan. The worst are government unions. Government teacher unions, like the Union of Failed Teachers (UFT) are destroying education and they and other government unions are bankrupting us. No government employee should be allowed to unionize. They took easy, low responsibility jobs that contribute nothing to our economy. Private sector employees should be free to unionize, but with their market power, not government force behind them.

ok i will ask you....so far no one who has said this that i have asked has given me an answer.....if they have point it out cause i missed it......Kaz ...WHY NOT?.....does the Government treat their workers any better than the private sector?.....do they adhere to the rules and regulations of the work place any better?......are workers treated with such respect that they just cant wait to get to work every day?.......and dont get me wrong i understand about the financial part....but when you say what you said....thats like your saying that no Govt Employee needs a Union because Govt. Supervisors are just the most Respectful Humane Supervisors in the Country...

My statement has nothing to do with that. I oppose government unions for the following reasons:

1) And this is the big one, there is no market force in negotiations. The politicians/bureaucrats aren't spending their own money, they are spending ours. Government isn't competing with other governments either. When management of a company doesn't treat it's employees fairly or pay them fairly, they lose to their competition. If they give them too much money, the company also goes into financial trouble. There are no market forces at play.

2) Government jobs aren't subject to market forces either. They are very secure. There are some rare, limited layoffs, but they are very few and far between.

3) When people work for the government, they are supposed to serve the public. All the greedy bastards in Wisconsin are proving is they are already overpaid, have too many benefits (far exceeding the private sector) and it's not enough, they want more.

When you combine them, government unions are screwing the taxpayer and bureaucrats not being in competitive markets aren't protecting the taxpayers. And the financial state of almost every State in the US proves what I'm saying is true.

So now, someone has answered your question.

 

[Big Fitz]

Healthy Unions are an essential ingredient of broadly shared prosperity a.k.a. a Middle Class society.

This is a true statement. Unions primary purpose is to prevent the abuse of the average laborer, be they white or blue collar.

Unions are part of a larger network of elements which include progressive taxation, regulations, and middle class programs (all of which lead to solid jobs, stable financial markets, and an affordable cost of living).

Errors begin here. Progressive taxation is NOT a requirement for a solid middle class. Flat or consumption taxes work better and are less detrimental to society as a whole. Progressive taxes only breed class warfare and corruption and are based solely on envy.

Regulations are needed, but they should be balanced for cost effectiveness, intrusion into citizens lives, and need. Often uniform enforcement and stiff penalties are better than micromanagement.

Stable financial markets are created by uniform codes of laws, applied equally and enforced evenly to everyone. When business can trust these things to be done, then stability comes about. Unions HAVE been in the past beneficial in helping this, but at times, they have been agents of great chaos. Look at how Eugene V. Debs tied up the US railroads. The coal miner's union in 1904 had to be busted by TRor cause tens of thousands to freeze to death that winter. How about the Homestead strike which is one of the bloodiest events in US Labor history and shows how both strikers and management should NOT act.

Affordable costs of living... they have nothing to do with Unions in a proactive sense, but a reactive sense. As has been becoming my new motto it seems, civilization has costs that factor into every aspect of life. A house in America may cost 150k, but that is because of the zoning ordinances, the lending markets, the cost of materials, plus the labor costs, the value of the location... all this. All these things factor in and create the value. Unions can only react to costs after the fact and raise them over time causing a spiral of raised costs as their costs factor right into the whole.

Unions are one of the things that separates the 1st and 3rd world. In the 3rd world labor has no power. Workers are ruthlessly exploited in sweat shops. They cannot organize. For this reason, in the 3rd world all the wealth accumulates in the hands of a corrupt & wealthy elite who buy government for their own enrichment.

This is true for the most part. They've yet to have their own versions of Upton Sinclair, Jakob Riis, Eugene V. Debs... and even to some extent Carrie Nation (the Temperance Movement was very telling in future union organizing). But they will. Its already happening in China and India. The worst polluting and abusive industries are moving to Vietnam and Laos and Thailand. It's funny. There are jobs that even Chinese won't do (for such low wages).

Question: What separated America from the Soviets during the Cold War? Answer: America had a thriving middle class, whereas the average citizen in Russia was poor and powerless. American workers -- because of unions -- lived well and could send their children to college. That is to say, unions were part of what gave working class families upward mobility, the very thing that separated us from all those evil-doers the right is conditioned to hate.

False analogy. In Russia, everyone was part of the union... aka the state. What separated America from Russia was individual freedom and capitalism. If you worked hard, you kept your profits to do with as you saw fit. In Russia, your profits were taken from you and distributed to everyone before you even received them. You were given what some politician thought you deserved. This killed achievement, innovation and helped spread apathy, sloth and paranoia towards your fellow man, lest you be replaced. Collectivism killed Russia's spirit for it left nothing for anyone to achieve, except political power which then acted just like the Tsarists did... if not only a little dingier.

Unions did their job protecting workers from abuse and dangerous working conditions all the way to the 1950's. But in the 1960's they lost their way, and could not handle the new growing global economy, where competition from overseas where nations with no labor protection and corrupt government, combined with protected industries could underbid more fairly priced businesses. Like I said before, civilization has costs, and if you don't protect yourself, you will succumb to a more barbaric civilization that you don't economically protect yourself from.

[But there was a downside to the postwar world of unions and shared prosperity. The owners of capital had less wealth (and thus less money to fund elections and buy media, i.e., less concentrated power to shape laws and opinions). They could not retire young and leave their children with dynastic wealth. To the contrary, money was in the hands of more people who, in turn, pumped that money into the economy (which lead to incredible economic growth). Unions were one of the things that prevented the narrow concentration of wealth and political power. Unions gave average hard working Americans a seat at the table. Reaganomics moved unions out of Washington in favor of lobbyists]

Actually, unions helped the wealthy grow wealthier. All those higher wages created investment income in the middle class by raising their standard of living. As seen in the late middle ages and the creation of the merchant and middle classes with capitalism's birth, these groups desire the same privileges as the noble and wealthy. So, during WW2, they invested in war bonds. In the post war era, they invested in stocks and bonds. The savvy investor became more middle class and could do more for themselves with less entrance capital. So, when these people retired, they became much richer for the fact that their invested money in the fat corporate cats who were made richer still. This is the inflationary aspect of a capitalist economy that unions CAN be a positive part of, if they remain in control of their more basal urges to grow and ultimately become fatal to their host industries.

You are right in saying that unions gave average citizens a seat at the table. You are dead wrong that Reaganomics replacing unions with lobbyists. Unions never left Washington... they just hired their own lobbyists.

The Reagan Revolution got rid of unions mostly in order to give the owners of capital cheap labor. They also pushed relentlessly for open borders so capital could flow instantaneously to the cheapest labor markets. That is, the anti-union movement went hand in glove with globalization, which itself was designed to give capital access to sweat shop labor in the 3rd world. The owners of capital shipped American jobs to terrible places -- places with dictators and terrorists -- because those places maintained an iron fist over their workers, paying them pennies a day to make Nikes. Conservative complaints about evil doers in the 3rd world are tragically ironic: the cheap oil and resources which capital requires comes from market arrangements made possible by the Reagan Revolution. Capital loves sweat shops because cheap labor means higher returns.

No. The Reagan Revolution broke the back of unions threatening the very security of the nation just like TR did in 1904 to the Coal Miners. After that, unions fell victim to their own excesses. Locking auto manufacturers, steel mills and other heavy industry to uncompetitive deals when the market opened up to Japanese and Korean heavy industries. They also had Nixonian and Carter era 'reforms' like the EPA and new environmental and energy policies that increased costs on the industries to modernize. So with depleted funds to adjust to the industry changes, they just started going out of business because they couldn't adapt.

What followed with the free trade agreements with Mexico, NAFTA, CAFTA, FTAA, Most Privileged trade status to China is what did those industries in. The idea of worldwide free trade started under HW Bush, grown under Clinton, and even under W (one of his biggest mistakes) No barriers between nations who have much lower costs to support their way of life, tax breaks and exemptions for industries to unfairly compete against our own.

But most of all: capital hates unions because they hurt the bottom line.

Of course. It's economics 101 to decrease your costs to the minimum. Ergo, all things that increase costs are to be disliked. File under: "No Shit, Really?"

The point of Reaganomics was to replace the GM job model (high wages and benefits) with a sea of no-benefit, low-wage temp jobs. This transition also required moving the middle class to debt-financed consumption. That is, under Reagan the middle class would increasingly be loaned the money they formerly made from union-guaranteed wages, benefits, and government programs. This formula (of keeping the middle class afloat with high interest loans) lead to unsustainable debt levels. It got so bad that Americans had to use their homes as ATMs just to maintain the very living standard that Reagan promised would trickle down. (Who knew that it would trickle down in the form of the credit industrial complex?)

No, the purpose of supply side capitalism was to put the money back into the hands of the people, not the government. That meant putting it into the hands of the wealthy first and foremost because they own the factories, hire the workers, expand and modernize and spread their wealth out in ways that feed the economy. That is how supply side economics work, and it works damn well.

As for using the home as an 'ATM' you can thank the democrats philosophy that everyone has a right to a home, creating crazy laws regarding home loans and zero cost mortgages. Congress created the housing crisis and now we're seeing the rewards with foreclosures galore.

Please note: the Right didn't reduce union membership overnight. They launched a 30 year propaganda war against them. They created an army of think tanks, political action committees, and popular media to shift American opinion against unions and government. They shifted populist anger from the corporate fat cat to the union boss. And it worked. The low information voter bought it hook-line-&-sinker. Now... today .... America is shifting to a 3rd world distribution scheme, where workers are paid less and less, and a small group of wealthy accumulate more and more, as they protect themselves inside hyper-secure gated neighborhoods.

The innocent conservative voter has been deceived. They voted for a movement which is bringing sweat shop poverty to the USA. This was the point of Reagan: to give cheap labor to capital. Welcome to it. You ain't seen nothing yet. In 2012 when the right re-takes the White House, they are going to need more terrorism than ever to distract the serfs from the final phase: Goodbye Social Security and Medicare. Welcome to the 3rd world people!

Oh good lord. Go off the deep end a little more, please.

 

[Big Fitz]

For me, as a conservative it is not about Hating Unions. That is just a left wing lie meant to inflame people.

It is about understanding that in some cases Unions Over reach. In their pursuit of getting everything the worker wants, they lose site of the fact that Business must remain Profitable.

I also am troubled by the ties between labor and 1 political Party in this country.

Everyone understands that Organized Labor has a place, and played(plays) and important role in America, However the open minded have to recognize that to much of a good thing is not good.

A big part of the sucking sound of US jobs going over seas can be blamed on Union Demands.

A balance must be found.

The problem of Over reaching Unions, who do not care about the Effects their Demands will have on Profitability are child's play. Compared to the problems with Public Sector Unions. With their Alliance with the Democrat Party, and the lack of Profit Motivation of the Government people negotiating with them. Has lead to ridicules unrealistic and unsustainable Contracts for Public Sector Employees.

It is not heartless and Evil to recognize that, it is for the Greater good that we must.

Charles is invoking the Big Lie.

Union membership has gone from 36% in 1954 to 11.9% today.

The jobs went overseas as union membership shrank by two thirds.

Fewer unions means fewer jobs.

Because they are out of control and are not working with business to be sustainable.

 

[Chris]

If you want to argue about what sent jobs overseas, the lack of national health insurance in America, put American industries at a tremendous competitive disadvantage since every other industrialized nation in the world has national health insurance. If fact Toyota recently located a plant in Canada instead of the United States in part because of lower health insurance costs in Canada.

Which is what the Congress was supposed to do, lower costs, instead they went for more control. To bad that doesn't help much.

I agree.

We need national health insurance.

One day we will have it.

 

[Chris]

For me, as a conservative it is not about Hating Unions. That is just a left wing lie meant to inflame people.

It is about understanding that in some cases Unions Over reach. In their pursuit of getting everything the worker wants, they lose site of the fact that Business must remain Profitable.

I also am troubled by the ties between labor and 1 political Party in this country.

Everyone understands that Organized Labor has a place, and played(plays) and important role in America, However the open minded have to recognize that to much of a good thing is not good.

A big part of the sucking sound of US jobs going over seas can be blamed on Union Demands.

A balance must be found.

The problem of Over reaching Unions, who do not care about the Effects their Demands will have on Profitability are child's play. Compared to the problems with Public Sector Unions. With their Alliance with the Democrat Party, and the lack of Profit Motivation of the Government people negotiating with them. Has lead to ridicules unrealistic and unsustainable Contracts for Public Sector Employees.

It is not heartless and Evil to recognize that, it is for the Greater good that we must.

Charles is invoking the Big Lie.

Union membership has gone from 36% in 1954 to 11.9% today.

The jobs went overseas as union membership shrank by two thirds.

Fewer unions means fewer jobs.

Because they are out of control and are not working with business to be sustainable.

Like the unions at Ford Motor Company?

 

[Chris]

For me, as a conservative it is not about Hating Unions. That is just a left wing lie meant to inflame people.

It is about understanding that in some cases Unions Over reach. In their pursuit of getting everything the worker wants, they lose site of the fact that Business must remain Profitable.

I also am troubled by the ties between labor and 1 political Party in this country.

Everyone understands that Organized Labor has a place, and played(plays) and important role in America, However the open minded have to recognize that to much of a good thing is not good.

A big part of the sucking sound of US jobs going over seas can be blamed on Union Demands.

A balance must be found.

The problem of Over reaching Unions, who do not care about the Effects their Demands will have on Profitability are child's play. Compared to the problems with Public Sector Unions. With their Alliance with the Democrat Party, and the lack of Profit Motivation of the Government people negotiating with them. Has lead to ridicules unrealistic and unsustainable Contracts for Public Sector Employees.

It is not heartless and Evil to recognize that, it is for the Greater good that we must.

Charles is invoking the Big Lie.

Union membership has gone from 36% in 1954 to 11.9% today.

The jobs went overseas as union membership shrank by two thirds.

Fewer unions means fewer jobs.

Union membership sank because they negotiated themselves right out of jobs.

This is laughable.

No, management moved the jobs overseas where desperate people will work for pennies an hour.

 

[Big Fitz]

Charles is invoking the Big Lie.

Union membership has gone from 36% in 1954 to 11.9% today.

The jobs went overseas as union membership shrank by two thirds.

Fewer unions means fewer jobs.

Because they are out of control and are not working with business to be sustainable.

Like the unions at Ford Motor Company?

One strike away from being sunk themselves. that's all it takes.

 

[Political Junky]

For me, as a conservative it is not about Hating Unions. That is just a left wing lie meant to inflame people.

It is about understanding that in some cases Unions Over reach. In their pursuit of getting everything the worker wants, they lose site of the fact that Business must remain Profitable.

I also am troubled by the ties between labor and 1 political Party in this country.

Everyone understands that Organized Labor has a place, and played(plays) and important role in America, However the open minded have to recognize that to much of a good thing is not good.

A big part of the sucking sound of US jobs going over seas can be blamed on Union Demands.

A balance must be found.

The problem of Over reaching Unions, who do not care about the Effects their Demands will have on Profitability are child's play. Compared to the problems with Public Sector Unions. With their Alliance with the Democrat Party, and the lack of Profit Motivation of the Government people negotiating with them. Has lead to ridicules unrealistic and unsustainable Contracts for Public Sector Employees.

It is not heartless and Evil to recognize that, it is for the Greater good that we must.

Charles is invoking the Big Lie.

Union membership has gone from 36% in 1954 to 11.9% today.

The jobs went overseas as union membership shrank by two thirds.

Fewer unions means fewer jobs.

Because they are out of control and are not working with business to be sustainable.

You mean by demanding a livable wage and benefits?