For a president who believes in "Trickle down economics" has failed...tell that to hourly wage workers...

[Toddsterpatriot]

What are the numbers?

Chief Executives

www.bls.gov

Average CEO wage, $258,900.
Median CEO wage, $206,680.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

What was your intention behind defending CEO's when I showed you that their pay went up 1322% and in that same time our pay only went up 18%?

My intention was showing your error (lie?).

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The top 350 U.S. company CEO's were paid an average of $24.2 million in 2020, with benefits and stock options. From 1978 to 2019, typical worker's compensation grew just 18 percent, while CEO compensation grew by 1,322 percent during the same period.
My point still stands. Now what Todd?
And you prove to me that the other 150 in the top 500 grew less than 1000%. Do you even know what the numbers are?
The majority of America’s lowest-paid workers (66 percent) are employed by large corporations with more than 100 employees, often in retail and food service sectors.

Of the top 50 employers of low-wage workers in 2012, the average executive received $9.4 million in compensation. The top 350 U.S. company CEO’s were paid an average of $24.2 million in 2020, with benefits and stock options. From 1978 to 2019, typical worker’s compensation grew just 18 percent, while CEO compensation grew by 1,322 percent during the same period. The average CEO-to-worker pay ratio for publicly traded companies in 2020 was 299-to-one. At 58 companies, the CEO-worker pay gap was more than 1,000-to-one. Despite increased productivity and profits, more than 6.3 million working adults and their families live in poverty (with millions more just barely above the poverty line) and are more likely to experience food insecurity, depression, and poor health outcomes.

Over the past five years, lawmakers across the U.S. have begun to address these challenges and restore lost revenue through enacting fines and taxes on businesses with large disparities between highest and lowest paid employees.

Legislation to Address Extreme Pay Disparity - Center for Hunger Free Communities

drexel.edu

The majority of America’s lowest-paid workers (66 percent) are employed by large corporations with more than 100 employees, often in retail and food service sectors.

Large corporations hire a lot of low-skilled workers? That's awesome!

Over the past five years, lawmakers across the U.S. have begun to address these challenges and restore lost revenue through enacting fines and taxes on businesses with large disparities between highest and lowest paid employees.

Restore lost revenue? Who lost it? Where?

 

[sealybobo]

View attachment 936657

Chief Executives

www.bls.gov

Average CEO wage, $258,900.
Median CEO wage, $206,680.

Yea but a lot of people who call themselves CEO's aren't CEO's. I really don't care about small business CEO's. Let's just focus on the fortune 500's. Turns out, between 1978 and now, the top 350 companies CEO's pay went up 1322% and the employees of those companies only went up 18%. That's why employees are organizing.

You will never admit the CEO and VP's and White collar workers have fucked the blue collar workers ever since the blue collar workers lost their seats at the table.

35% of American workers back then were in unions. If you want to know when America was great, it was probably 1978. Right before the corporations took over. Before they got their boy Reagan elected. That my friend was the beginning of the end.

Average 50-something now has net worth over $1 million​

If you’re a 50-something and you’re not worth a cool $1 million, do not despair. Those numbers are averages, and the super-rich drive them waaaay up.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Yea but a lot of people who call themselves CEO's aren't CEO's. I really don't care about small business CEO's. Let's just focus on the fortune 500's. Turns out, between 1978 and now, the top 350 companies CEO's pay went up 1322% and the employees of those companies only went up 18%. That's why employees are organizing.

You will never admit the CEO and VP's and White collar workers have fucked the blue collar workers ever since the blue collar workers lost their seats at the table.

35% of American workers back then were in unions. If you want to know when America was great, it was probably 1978. Right before the corporations took over. Before they got their boy Reagan elected. That my friend was the beginning of the end.

Average 50-something now has net worth over $1 million​

If you’re a 50-something and you’re not worth a cool $1 million, do not despair. Those numbers are averages, and the super-rich drive them waaaay up.

Yea but a lot of people who call themselves CEO's aren't CEO's. I really don't care about small business CEO's.

Small and medium size businesses employ many more Americans than the S&P 500.

Let's just focus on the fortune 500's. Turns out, between 1978 and now, the top 350 companies CEO's pay went up 1322% and the employees of those companies only went up 18%.

That's awful! So what?

 

[TruthNotBS]

The president said Wednesday that trickle-down economics “failed” Americans and that “this is the moment” the U.S. will move away from that economic theory.
“Under the trickle-down economic theory was that public investment would discourage private investment. Give me a break,” he said.
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/4071807-biden-bashes-trickle-down-economics/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CHere's%20the%20simple%20truth%20about,Bidenomics%20is%20about%20the%20future.

Not counting inflation, the annual growth in average hourly earnings has dropped to 4.1 percent in March 2024, down from 5.9 percent during the coronavirus turmoil on March 22, according to the Wall Street Journal.

But after counting inflation, wages in President Joe Biden’s migration-inflated economy have remained flat or dropped — especially for the many young Americans who are facing rising rents.
Indeed, many polls that show the majority of Americans reject Biden’s high-migration, low-wage “Bidenomics” economy.
Migration also spurs inflation, chiefly by driving up housing prices amid Biden’s welcome for more than 7 million southern migrants and at least 2 million legal migrants. “Inflation is down but not gone,” Georgieva said at the meeting.

Many business leaders, government agencies, and academics admit that wages are reduced by migration. They include independent academics, the National Academies of Science, the Congressional Budget Office, executives, more academics, New York Times reporters, state officials, unions, more business executives, lobbyists, employees, the Wall Street Journal, federal economists, Goldman Sachs, Goldman Sachs again, oil drillers, Wall Street analysts, fired professionals, legislators, construction workers, New York Times subscribers, Robert Rubin, and even by the Bank of Ireland.

12ft

I'm against the open borders and how illegal immigration is being handled by Biden's administration and other liberals. However, as far as low wages and the higher cost of living. When capitalism is unregulated or underregulated, it always falls into monopolizing markets, and cronyism, which strips workers of their rights and protections (to unionize), allows landlords to raise rents to their heart's content, and the creation of gross inequality, leading to social unrest and mass poverty.

Between 1948 and 1980, the US economy was based on manufacturing - MADE IN THE USA, providing the world with the highest quality, most sought-after goods. The United States also had the privilege after WWII, of making the USD the world's reserve currency, having practically, with few exceptions, full control of the international banking system.

​

Thanks to the New Deal of the 1930s and the fact that the US came out of WWII, essentially, unscathed (compared to Europe, Russia, and much of Asia), allowed it to become the world's #1 SuperPower (THE MANUFACTURING HUB OF THE WORLD!), offering its citizens (comprised mostly of its working-class), the highest standard of living of any other nation. The US workforce became the largest, wealthiest middle class in history. What we socialists call "The Aristocracy Of Labor". This post-war golden age, for America's economy and its working class lasted for about 30 years....

​

It's seared into the very fabric and core of America's working class "consciousness" and spirit, despite the fact that the capitalist-imperialist masters (i.e. employer class - which Adam Smith, the father of capitalism called "masters" - I'll quote him later) and their cronies in government in the 1980s, brutally, mercilessly raped and gutted the American working-class, stripping it of its capital, workplace rights, protections and great paying Blue Collar manufacturing jobs, under the pretense of supply-side "Trickle-Down" Reaganomics:

​

Turning our economy from one based on manufacturing hard goods - MADE IN THE USA - and on self-reliance, to Wall Street Speculative Trading and Finance. We're now completely dependent upon foreign factories for most of our goods. Our doctors and nurses didn't even have masks during the pandemic. We had to import them.

These right-wing conservatives, funded and supported by the big-money capitalist ruling class, exacted their revenge for the New Deal and the previous thirty years of working-class-oriented, "friendlier" capitalism, which they abhorred, seeing it as undermining their profits and power. The ruling elites destroyed our nation's manufacturing base, turning tens of thousands of factories into warehouses and distribution centers for cheap, crappy imported products from China, Bangladesh and Latin America.

Millions of jobs were lost, and the American working class fell heavily into credit card debt, without the security, of good wages, and the resources they owned in the past. Many working-class Americans still believe that today American workers work under the best conditions in the industrialized world. They've been brainwashed by their bosses, to believe that if they're struggling to survive, it's not the fault of their masters, but rather their fault for not "working hard enough", or just not having what it takes to be rich and a member of the wealthy, "master-employer-class".

The American working class today lacks class consciousness. They don't even realize that they live in a society where socioeconomic classes exist. The masters have them fighting over race, LGBTQ and a host of other issues, in order to keep them distracted and oblivious to the true source of their problems. Their issue isn't race, LGBTQA++++++, evil Mexicans, or China and Russia, it's ECONOMICS. It's who has control over the means of mass production. It's the ability of those who work for a wage, to effectively negotiate their terms of employment, which includes working conditions in the workplace, together as a united, working-class front.

Rest assured, your masters know how to unionize. They're experts at collective bargaining, and protecting their class interests. Ever heard of Chambers Of Commerce? How about super-PACs? How about industry-specific associations and guilds? How about non-profit organizations/NGOs, that act as "front" movements, advancing the financial interests of the ruling class? How about the Business Man's Bible Study or Dinner at your local church?

How about that army of lobbyists loitering around in the halls of government like a pack of hungry hyenas legally bribing politicians? How about all of those "think tanks" (stink tanks) staffed with scholars, political analysts, and academics, from the top universities in the country, writing legislation for the politicians? It's the lobbyists that hand them the "white papers", the "studies" and bills/legislation written by these stink tanks.

The masters know how to unionize and they do it well, but they hate it when the working class unionize because it's not in their financial interest. It cuts into their profits and power (control over the workplace and government). Hence if you're a big-money capitalist, you're just being smart, and shrewd, if you "unite", and "organize" with other members of your socioeconomic class, to lobby the government and push through legislation that serves your vested interests. You're just being an intelligent capitalist.

However, when the working class do the same, they're being ungrateful, unreasonable, "Who the hell do they think they are", a bunch of whinny bums, who refuse to work, under the conditions set by their benevolent, more deserving, almost divine wealthy, powerful employers.

The system is rigged, to serve the vested interests of the wealthy, at the expense of the public good. We live in a plutocratic, oligarchal society. The US government doesn't serve the American public, it serves the wealthy ruling elites. That's why working conditions in this country are crap, the pay isn't enough to live on, and the cost of living is through the roof. This has been the case for decades, and to pretend that it's due to Biden, is disingenuous, to say the least.

Cost of living can be mitigated by higher wages, rent controls, the government building more housing, and eliminating the drug war which only hurts the working class, criminalizing vices always leads to worse outcomes for everyone. More rights and protection for workers to unionize are needed. There are many ways to improve the working and general living conditions of the American public. The government must get involved and unfortunately the rich ruling class has brainwashed many working-class people to believe that government is evil, and ineffective, while privately owned corporations are good and effective. It's a royal brain-FK, that the American people have suffered since 1980.

If the American working class knew the power that they have, they would fix the economy within five years. Everything would be better in five years, but unfortunately, the working class GIANT is asleep, thinking it's powerless, impotent, and unable to change the situation, hence we continue with the status quo, ad infinitum.

Adam Smith the father of capitalism:

What are the common wages of labour, depends every where upon the contract usually made between those two parties, whose interests are by no means the same. The workmen desire to get as much, the masters to give as little as possible. The former are disposed to combine in order to raise, the latter in order to lower the wages of labour.
It is not, however, difficult to foresee which of the two parties must, upon all ordinary occasions, have the advantage in the dispute, and force the other into a compliance with their terms. The masters, being fewer in number, can combine much more easily; and the law, besides, authorises, or at least does not prohibit their combinations, while it prohibits those of the workmen. ( Wealth Of Nations - Book I, Chapter VIII)

 

[TruthNotBS]

The majority of America’s lowest-paid workers (66 percent) are employed by large corporations with more than 100 employees, often in retail and food service sectors.

Large corporations hire a lot of low-skilled workers? That's awesome!

Over the past five years, lawmakers across the U.S. have begun to address these challenges and restore lost revenue through enacting fines and taxes on businesses with large disparities between highest and lowest paid employees.

Restore lost revenue? Who lost it? Where?

Get out of the way and allow the government to provide tuition-free vocational training and to ensure every American is employed either in the private sector or in the public sector working for the local, state, or federal government. More people working, more paying consumers buying products and services, hence if you're a small business, you're going to love a mixed economy with a little bit of socialism. That little bit of socialism, of responsible capitalism, will make sure you're always in business, making money. Happy workers, happy customers, happy capitalists.

Unfortunately, some capitalists don't realize that, so they insist on making life as difficult as possible for the working class and they end up hurting themselves. These capitalists should stop cutting their noses despite their faces.

 

[sealybobo]

Yea but a lot of people who call themselves CEO's aren't CEO's. I really don't care about small business CEO's.

Small and medium size businesses employ many more Americans than the S&P 500.

Let's just focus on the fortune 500's. Turns out, between 1978 and now, the top 350 companies CEO's pay went up 1322% and the employees of those companies only went up 18%.

That's awful! So what?

Well don't wonder why the middle class has disappeared and despite that fact, it looks like America is doing GREAT!

Sometime around age 50, the average American can now expect a household net worth exceeding $1 million.

How did so many 50-somethings become millionaires?

Household wealth swelled at a record pace during the pandemic. From 2019 to 2022, the median net worth of American families jumped 37% to $192,900, after adjusting for inflation. It’s the largest increase ever recorded by the federal Survey of Consumer Finances, released last fall. Surging home values and rising stock ownership fed the surge.

If you’re a 50-something and you’re not worth a cool $1 million, do not despair. Those numbers are averages, and the super-rich drive them waaaay up.

How much money do you really have including your $150K house? You have $300K. That means you are about 10 years away from retirement and you have no where near what you need to retire. So keep being an idiot.

50-somethings​

• Average net worth: $1,132,532 (ages 50-54), $1,442,075 (ages 55-59)
• Median net worth: $272,800 (ages 50-54), $320,700 (ages 55-59)

 

[healthmyths]

I'm against the open borders and how illegal immigration is being handled by Biden's administration and other liberals. However, as far as low wages and the higher cost of living. When capitalism is unregulated or underregulated, it always falls into monopolizing markets, and cronyism, which strips workers of their rights and protections (to unionize), allows landlords to raise rents to their heart's content, and the creation of gross inequality, leading to social unrest and mass poverty.

Between 1948 and 1980, the US economy was based on manufacturing - MADE IN THE USA, providing the world with the highest quality, most sought-after goods. The United States also had the privilege after WWII, of making the USD the world's reserve currency, having practically, with few exceptions, full control of the international banking system.

View attachment 936715​

Thanks to the New Deal of the 1930s and the fact that the US came out of WWII, essentially, unscathed (compared to Europe, Russia, and much of Asia), allowed it to become the world's #1 SuperPower (THE MANUFACTURING HUB OF THE WORLD!), offering its citizens (comprised mostly of its working-class), the highest standard of living of any other nation. The US workforce became the largest, wealthiest middle class in history. What we socialists call "The Aristocracy Of Labor". This post-war golden age, for America's economy and its working class lasted for about 30 years....

View attachment 936698


View attachment 936700​

It's seared into the very fabric and core of America's working class "consciousness" and spirit, despite the fact that the capitalist-imperialist masters (i.e. employer class - which Adam Smith, the father of capitalism called "masters" - I'll quote him later) and their cronies in government in the 1980s, brutally, mercilessly raped and gutted the American working-class, stripping it of its capital, workplace rights, protections and great paying Blue Collar manufacturing jobs, under the pretense of supply-side "Trickle-Down" Reaganomics:

View attachment 936704





View attachment 936710​

Turning our economy from one based on manufacturing hard goods - MADE IN THE USA - and on self-reliance, to Wall Street Speculative Trading and Finance. We're now completely dependent upon foreign factories for most of our goods. Our doctors and nurses didn't even have masks during the pandemic. We had to import them.

These right-wing conservatives, funded and supported by the big-money capitalist ruling class, exacted their revenge for the New Deal and the previous thirty years of working-class-oriented, "friendlier" capitalism, which they abhorred, seeing it as undermining their profits and power. The ruling elites destroyed our nation's manufacturing base, turning tens of thousands of factories into warehouses and distribution centers for cheap, crappy imported products from China, Bangladesh and Latin America.

Millions of jobs were lost, and the American working class fell heavily into credit card debt, without the security, of good wages, and the resources they owned in the past. Many working-class Americans still believe that today American workers work under the best conditions in the industrialized world. They've been brainwashed by their bosses, to believe that if they're struggling to survive, it's not the fault of their masters, but rather their fault for not "working hard enough", or just not having what it takes to be rich and a member of the wealthy, "master-employer-class".

The American working class today lacks class consciousness. They don't even realize that they live in a society where socioeconomic classes exist. The masters have them fighting over race, LGBTQ and a host of other issues, in order to keep them distracted and oblivious to the true source of their problems. Their issue isn't race, LGBTQA++++++, evil Mexicans, or China and Russia, it's ECONOMICS. It's who has control over the means of mass production. It's the ability of those who work for a wage, to effectively negotiate their terms of employment, which includes working conditions in the workplace, together as a united, working-class front.

Rest assured, your masters know how to unionize. They're experts at collective bargaining, and protecting their class interests. Ever heard of Chambers Of Commerce? How about super-PACs? How about industry-specific associations and guilds? How about non-profit organizations/NGOs, that act as "front" movements, advancing the financial interests of the ruling class? How about the Business Man's Bible Study or Dinner at your local church?

How about that army of lobbyists loitering around in the halls of government like a pack of hungry hyenas legally bribing politicians? How about all of those "think tanks" (stink tanks) staffed with scholars, political analysts, and academics, from the top universities in the country, writing legislation for the politicians? It's the lobbyists that hand them the "white papers", the "studies" and bills/legislation written by these stink tanks.

The masters know how to unionize and they do it well, but they hate it when the working class unionize because it's not in their financial interest. It cuts into their profits and power (control over the workplace and government). Hence if you're a big-money capitalist, you're just being smart, and shrewd, if you "unite", and "organize" with other members of your socioeconomic class, to lobby the government and push through legislation that serves your vested interests. You're just being an intelligent capitalist.

However, when the working class do the same, they're being ungrateful, unreasonable, "Who the hell do they think they are", a bunch of whinny bums, who refuse to work, under the conditions set by their benevolent, more deserving, almost divine wealthy, powerful employers.

The system is rigged, to serve the vested interests of the wealthy, at the expense of the public good. We live in a plutocratic, oligarchal society. The US government doesn't serve the American public, it serves the wealthy ruling elites. That's why working conditions in this country are crap, the pay isn't enough to live on, and the cost of living is through the roof. This has been the case for decades, and to pretend that it's due to Biden, is disingenuous, to say the least.

Cost of living can be mitigated by higher wages, rent controls, the government building more housing, and eliminating the drug war which only hurts the working class, criminalizing vices always leads to worse outcomes for everyone. More rights and protection for workers to unionize are needed. There are many ways to improve the working and general living conditions of the American public. The government must get involved and unfortunately the rich ruling class has brainwashed many working-class people to believe that government is evil, and ineffective, while privately owned corporations are good and effective. It's a royal brain-FK, that the American people have suffered since 1980.

If the American working class knew the power that they have, they would fix the economy within five years. Everything would be better in five years, but unfortunately, the working class GIANT is asleep, thinking it's powerless, impotent, and unable to change the situation, hence we continue with the status quo, ad infinitum.

Adam Smith the father of capitalism:

What are the common wages of labour, depends every where upon the contract usually made between those two parties, whose interests are by no means the same. The workmen desire to get as much, the masters to give as little as possible. The former are disposed to combine in order to raise, the latter in order to lower the wages of labour.
It is not, however, difficult to foresee which of the two parties must, upon all ordinary occasions, have the advantage in the dispute, and force the other into a compliance with their terms. The masters, being fewer in number, can combine much more easily; and the law, besides, authorises, or at least does not prohibit their combinations, while it prohibits those of the workmen. ( Wealth Of Nations - Book I, Chapter VIII)

Question for you...
Would you take on all the responsibilities associated with a multi-billion $ company CEO for a minimum wage?
If you did, would you charge consumers of your product or services more money to cover additional employees that you get paid the same amount...BUT you were responsible for the decisions regarding the product or services i.e. lawsuits, negative news, etc. again all for the same minimum wage paid to all employees?
You have to be honest here because this is truly the crux of the issue... ARE YOU TruthnotBS truly willing to be a CEO that is responsible for thousands of employees,(their families well being) wages? That today the average American factory Worker is $16.92 per hour in United States. Would you be happy with $16.92 even though you are making billions of dollars of decisions affecting the lives and families of thousands of employees? BE HONEST would you be responsible for them and the billions of dollars of assets at $16.92/hour?

 

[TruthNotBS]

Question for you...
Would you take on all the responsibilities associated with a multi-billion $ company CEO for a minimum wage?
If you did, would you charge consumers of your product or services more money to cover additional employees that you get paid the same amount...BUT you were responsible for the decisions regarding the product or services i.e. lawsuits, negative news, etc. again all for the same minimum wage paid to all employees?
You have to be honest here because this is truly the crux of the issue... ARE YOU TruthnotBS truly willing to be a CEO that is responsible for thousands of employees,(their families well being) wages? That today the average American factory Worker is $16.92 per hour in United States. Would you be happy with $16.92 even though you are making billions of dollars of decisions affecting the lives and families of thousands of employees? BE HONEST would you be responsible for them and the billions of dollars of assets at $16.92/hour?

Question for you...

Would you take on all the responsibilities associated with a multi-billion $ company CEO for a minimum wage?

Answer for you...

When did I ever say that a CEO or the execs have to make the same as the people working the floor at the factory? Can you quote me saying that? Because I don't remember ever asserting that fortune 500 CEOs, should be making minimum wage or even equal to the laborers.

Between 1950 and 1980, the golden era of our nation's economy, CEOs of large companies, made on average about 20 or 30 times that of their average worker or salary. Making 30 times that of the average wage in your company is great. THIRTY TIMES! WOW! Average pay is $20 hourly, you're making $600 hourly. DAMN!!!! Today however, it's about 300x, to as much as 1000X the average wage in the company:

These American CEOs Are Paid 1000x More Than Their Employees.

When workers can hardly live on their salaries.

So that's wrong, and if you don't realize that, well, that's why we need labor rights and more unions.

If you did, would you charge consumers of your product or services more money to cover additional employees that you get paid the same amount...BUT you were responsible for the decisions regarding the product or services i.e. lawsuits, negative news, etc. again all for the same minimum wage paid to all employees?

Gobbledygook.

You have to be honest here because this is truly the crux of the issue... ARE YOU TruthnotBS truly willing to be a CEO that is responsible for thousands of employees,(their families well being) wages? That today the average American factory Worker is $16.92 per hour in United States. Would you be happy with $16.92 even though you are making billions of dollars of decisions affecting the lives and families of thousands of employees? BE HONEST would you be responsible for them and the billions of dollars of assets at $16.92/hour?

More gobbledygook. When did I ever say that CEOs should make minimum wage? They can earn a lot more than the average employee in the company. I'm a socialist and yet I'm not against people being rich or making a lot of money, BUT if you're making 300x, or 1000x the wage of the average worker in your company, and your workers are struggling to survive, because they can hardly pay their bills, then I definitely have a problem with that. If you're making 300x or more, of the average salary in your company, you better take care of your workers. Pay them a living wage, and stop passing legislation, laws, that hurt workers. I'm a generous socialist, but I have zero tolerance for the rich abusing the working class.

 

[healthmyths]

Answer for you...

When did I ever say that a CEO or the execs have to make the same as the people working the floor at the factory? Can you quote me saying that? Because I don't remember ever asserting that fortune 500 CEOs, should be making minimum wage or even equal to the laborers.

Between 1950 and 1980, the golden era of our nation's economy, CEOs of large companies, made on average about 20 or 30 times that of their average worker or salary. Making 30 times that of the average wage in your company is great. THIRTY TIMES! WOW! Average pay is $20 hourly, you're making $600 hourly. DAMN!!!! Today however, it's about 300x, to as much as 1000X the average wage in the company:

These American CEOs Are Paid 1000x More Than Their Employees.

When workers can hardly live on their salaries.

So that's wrong, and if you don't realize that, well, that's why we need labor rights and more unions.



Gobbledygook.



More gobbledygook. When did I ever say that CEOs should make minimum wage? They can earn a lot more than the average employee in the company. I'm a socialist and yet I'm not against people being rich or making a lot of money, BUT if you're making 300x, or 1000x the wage of the average worker in your company, and your workers are struggling to survive, because they can hardly pay their bills, then I definitely have a problem with that. If you're making 300x or more, of the average salary in your company, you better take care of your workers. Pay them a living wage, and stop passing legislation, laws, that hurt workers. I'm a generous socialist, but I have zero tolerance for the rich abusing the working class.

The problem is a "generous socialist" position.

You believe this right?
In contrast to capitalism, in a socialist society, the means of production are not owned by individuals but by the society as a whole, as represented by the governing party.

Karl Marx on Capitalism & Socialism | Ideas & Significance - Lesson | Study.com

This lesson aims to fully cover the ideas and theories developed by Karl Marx which are considered most distinctive and influential. Specifically,...

study.com

But who determines what "society as a whole" is told about? Xi Jinping is a genuine socialist who believes that the Chinese Communist Party should be the vanguard of Chinese society. Again what you believe right?
But his estimated net worth of Xi Jinping is $1.2 billion dollars.

Xi Jinping's Net Worth - How Wealthy is the Chinese Head of State?

Just how much personal wealth does the Chinese President have? Find out Xi Jinping's net worth and if his control extends to the nation's entire wealth.

finty.com

So like capitalism heads of businesses and heads of socialistic countries, are worth considerable more than the average person.

So I take it then you believe the CCP is better for you right?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Get out of the way and allow the government to provide tuition-free vocational training and to ensure every American is employed either in the private sector or in the public sector working for the local, state, or federal government. More people working, more paying consumers buying products and services, hence if you're a small business, you're going to love a mixed economy with a little bit of socialism. That little bit of socialism, of responsible capitalism, will make sure you're always in business, making money. Happy workers, happy customers, happy capitalists.

Unfortunately, some capitalists don't realize that, so they insist on making life as difficult as possible for the working class and they end up hurting themselves. These capitalists should stop cutting their noses despite their faces.

Get out of the way and allow the government to provide tuition-free vocational training and to ensure every American is employed either in the private sector or in the public sector working for the local, state, or federal government.

Just what we need, more government fucking up our education system.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Well don't wonder why the middle class has disappeared and despite that fact, it looks like America is doing GREAT!

Sometime around age 50, the average American can now expect a household net worth exceeding $1 million.

How did so many 50-somethings become millionaires?

Household wealth swelled at a record pace during the pandemic. From 2019 to 2022, the median net worth of American families jumped 37% to $192,900, after adjusting for inflation. It’s the largest increase ever recorded by the federal Survey of Consumer Finances, released last fall. Surging home values and rising stock ownership fed the surge.

If you’re a 50-something and you’re not worth a cool $1 million, do not despair. Those numbers are averages, and the super-rich drive them waaaay up.

How much money do you really have including your $150K house? You have $300K. That means you are about 10 years away from retirement and you have no where near what you need to retire. So keep being an idiot.

50-somethings​

• Average net worth: $1,132,532 (ages 50-54), $1,442,075 (ages 55-59)
• Median net worth: $272,800 (ages 50-54), $320,700 (ages 55-59)

Well don't wonder why the middle class has disappeared and despite that fact, it looks like America is doing GREAT!

What is "middle class"?

 

[TruthNotBS]

The problem is a "generous socialist" position.

You believe this right?
In contrast to capitalism, in a socialist society, the means of production are not owned by individuals but by the society as a whole, as represented by the governing party.

Karl Marx on Capitalism & Socialism | Ideas & Significance - Lesson | Study.com

This lesson aims to fully cover the ideas and theories developed by Karl Marx which are considered most distinctive and influential. Specifically,...

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But who determines what "society as a whole" is told about? Xi Jinping is a genuine socialist who believes that the Chinese Communist Party should be the vanguard of Chinese society. Again what you believe right?
But his estimated net worth of Xi Jinping is $1.2 billion dollars.

Xi Jinping's Net Worth - How Wealthy is the Chinese Head of State?

Just how much personal wealth does the Chinese President have? Find out Xi Jinping's net worth and if his control extends to the nation's entire wealth.

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So like capitalism heads of businesses and heads of socialistic countries, are worth considerable more than the average person.

So I take it then you believe the CCP is better for you right?

You're comparing apples and beach chairs like most capitalist-friendly polemicists. I'm an American socialist, hence my socialism is informed and influenced by my American culture and values. Chinese socialism is Chinese. Russian Bolshevik communism is Russian. I'm an American living in the 21st century. Just like all capitalist economies aren't the same, all socialist economies aren't likewise the same. Capitalism in Haiti, or Saudi Arabia, or Western Europe, is not the same as capitalism here.

I believe that socialism, and later communism, is the natural, inevitable successor of capitalism, just as capitalism was the successor and inheritor of chattel slavery and feudalism. Capitalists, the so-called "mercantile class" of the Renaissance, with its Republican politics and values, eventually defeated the European monarchies with their aristocratic, feudalistic order. What was the catalyst for capitalism's victory over feudalism? Technology. Material conditions lead to new, more efficient, often democratic, forms of production. Forms of production that free people from their masters and allow them to own more of the means of production.

Karl Marx recognized the virtues of capitalism. It's not ALL BAD. That competition between capitalists, despite the cronyism, and abuse of workers, facilitated the mass production of goods and services, leading to the modern Western world we live in. Karl Marx acknowledged the good aspects of capitalism while critiquing it. Not all bad, it has a lot of good.

Advanced 21st-century automation and artificial intelligence will eventually force society by necessity to adopt a non-profit, more democratic, centrally planned, system of mass production. Another word for that is "socialism". This will eventually continue evolving until the individual consumer has complete control over the means of production. Technology will eventually allow the individual consumer to draw water from the atmosphere, using a machine and will allow a person to own "atomic precision manufacturing machines" , that manipulate atoms using nanobots, generating food, clothing, and all of the goods and services that private companies today provide them with, or the socialist state.

Humans will always consume, but paying consumers, that's something else. Advanced technology eliminates wages, and hence the paying consumer, and capitalist markets. Socialism due to technology becomes a necessity, and that leads to the empowerment of the individual consumer, having complete control over the means of production.

Marx and Engels defined communism as: " A stateless society, without socioeconomic classes or the need for money". They spoke of the "withering away" of the state.

[URLunfurl="true"]Withering away of the state - Wikipedia

The state apparatus becomes small or nothing, when the consumer has control over the means of production, thanks to advanced technology.

Hey, the government in this sea colony is freaking out of control. My family and I are leaving tomorrow morning, how about you? We have our yachts, our safe, clean, micro-nuclear reactors, we have all of the technology, like micro-quantum computers, and AI, APMMs (Atomic Precision Manufacturing Machines), that generate all of the goods and services we consume and use, so we're out of here. We'll create another colony on international waters, somewhere, anywhere but here.

People will become more mobile because they can and it's freedom. They can settle down, and form a community with their friends, that has a government, but if the government becomes overbearing and oppressive, people in the future, will pack up and leave. All adult human relationships are 100% voluntary, without coercion. That's what socialism with advanced technology can do. It leads to a stateless society, without socioeconomic classes or the need for money.

Capitalists love their profits and markets. If technology makes mass production too efficient, where human wage labor is no longer needed, that's the end of that capitalist's customer base and market. The paying consumer pays with his or her wages, and if advanced automation and artificial intelligence reduce the need for wage labor too much, that creates a serious mammoth-scale crisis for both capitalists and the working class that relies on them. Both rely on each other in capitalism, it's a symbiotic relationship. The masters are astute, so they force the government to pay everyone a wage (UBI - UNIVERSAL BASIC INCOME), placing capitalism on life-support for another few decades, maybe even a century or two.

The capitalist class, ends up owning all of the advanced automation technology, artificial intelligence, the robots, and nanobots, consigning the working class to the compost heap. They won't do that immediately, they'll do it through extreme inequality, poverty, drugs, crime, incarceration, wars, pandemics..etc. Until all that remains are the billionaires, the multi-millionaires of today, their progeny, will live in Elysium:

​

And humanity will at best become slaves, and serfs. Techno-Feudalism. Ironically, the capitalist class of today, if they continue to have control over the means of production, will become the communists of the future living in gated, high-tech communities, "Gardens of Eden", paradise, while the working class of today will be dispatched. It's called "culling the herd", from the perspective of the ruling elites.

"We don't need them anymore, we have advanced technology"​

We socialists propose that you and I, everybody else, own the means of production, all of the technology together, collectively. We form a people's government, under the heel and authority of the working class, through worker-democratic councils, able to elect and recall government delegates/officials. We create a high-tech, marketless, non-profit, economic system that is centrally planned by a democatic government, until technology becomes advanced enough to empower the individual consumer to produce all of the goods and services that they consume and use, without the need for a private company or government. I prefer that, to techno-feudalism.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Get out of the way and allow the government to provide tuition-free vocational training and to ensure every American is employed either in the private sector or in the public sector working for the local, state, or federal government.

Just what we need, more government fucking up our education system.

You capitalists fuck it all up, not the government of the people.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

You capitalists fuck it all up, not the government of the people.

Was Obama's takeover of student loans a capitalist fuckup?

 

[TruthNotBS]

Was Obama's takeover of student loans a capitalist fuckup?

Those loans shouldn't even exist. Educating the public is an investment, with a high ROI. Tuition-free is the way to go, allowing the government to provide everyone with an education, who wants it, including vocational job training. If you want to open a private school, that's your prerogative, but every member of our society should have a human right to an education, from pre-school, to graduate school.

Obama isn't a socialist, although he pretends to be one.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Those loans shouldn't even exist. Educating the public is an investment, with a high ROI. Tuition-free is the way to go, allowing the government to provide everyone with an education, who wants it, including vocational job training. If you want to open a private school, that's your prerogative, but every member of our society should have a human right to an education, from pre-school, to graduate school.

Obama isn't a socialist, although he pretends to be one.

It wasn't a capitalist fuckup?

 

[sealybobo]

Well don't wonder why the middle class has disappeared and despite that fact, it looks like America is doing GREAT!

What is "middle class"?

It changed somewhere around 1978. It used to be

Job security
Good wages
Pensions
Social Security
Union protection
Companies didn't hire undocumented non American workers
Saving enough for retirement
Had enough to retire at 60

That's all gone. No more pensions or good paying blue collar jobs.

In 1978 workers lost our seat at the table. Unions were 35% of our work force. Today that number is closer to 10%. And in that time, the middle class has disappeared.

I love when Republicans point out that not every American took a step back. Some actually took a step forward. Yea. Their bosses. It's not just CEO pay went up. Management's wages went up by keeping workers wages down and unions out.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

It changed somewhere around 1978. It used to be

Job security
Good wages
Pensions
Social Security
Union protection
Companies didn't hire undocumented non American workers
Saving enough for retirement
Had enough to retire at 60

That's all gone. No more pensions or good paying blue collar jobs.

In 1978 workers lost our seat at the table. Unions were 35% of our work force. Today that number is closer to 10%. And in that time, the middle class has disappeared.

I love when Republicans point out that not every American took a step back. Some actually took a step forward. Yea. Their bosses. It's not just CEO pay went up. Management's wages went up by keeping workers wages down and unions out.

What is "middle class"?
Is it an income range?
A percentile range?
Or is it a feeling?