why do we spend so much money on education, and have so little results

[actsnoblemartin]

why do college, and even some high schools, have such liberal bias?.

Why isnt free speech, and more open debate promoted, and why arent students taught how to critically analyze/think, rather then told what to think.

what would you do to improve education?, what do you like/dislike about education

your thoughts?

 

[Psychoblues]

How much ws spent on you, martin? Think about it.

 

[BaronVonBigmeat]

The reason is because government runs it, for the most part.

And the part which is "private", is heavily regulated by the state. There is little room for innovation and so forth.

 

[Psychoblues]

Straw Man, bullshit or simple ignorance.

The reason is because government runs it, for the most part.

And the part which is "private", is heavily regulated by the state. There is little room for innovation and so forth.

Care to share where you heard that miscalculation or is it just a repetition of something you heard in a subway?

USPS, VA, TVA and many more provide services that no private industry could provide at a fraction of the cost.

Bullshit is bullshit. You speak bullshit.

 

[Doug]

The Derb says it all, right here.

 

[BaronVonBigmeat]

USPS, VA, TVA and many more provide services that no private industry could provide at a fraction of the cost.

Err wait, you're using the postal service as an example? Surely you have heard of UPS, FedEx, DHL? Surely it would not be a stretch for them to deliver the mail? (They can't deliver regular mail, because the USPS has a legal monopoly).

Also, TVA sucks too, because government economic planning sucks in general. Sure, you can provide Product A at a sub-market cost in one place, but everyone else will have to pay more. Here's what Ronald Reagan had to say about it:

"One such considered above criticism, sacred as motherhood, is TVA. This program started as a flood control project; the Tennessee Valley was periodically ravaged by destructive floods. The Army Engineers set out to solve this problem. They said that it was possible that once in 500 years there could be a total capacity flood that would inundate some 600,000 acres. Well, the engineers fixed that. They made a permanent lake which inundated a million acres. This solved the problem of floods, but the annual interest on the TVA debt is five times as great as the annual flood damage they sought to correct.

Of course, you will point out that TVA gets electric power from the impounded waters, and this is true, but today 85 percent of TVA's electricity is generated in coal burning steam plants. Now perhaps you'll charge that I'm overlooking the navigable waterway that was created, providing cheap barge traffic, but the bulk of the freight barged on that waterway is coal being shipped to the TVA steam plants, and the cost of maintaining that channel each year would pay for shipping all of the coal by rail, and there would be money left over."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_Valley_Authority

 

[Shogun]

I think we should review why kids are not motivated to excell in education rather than throw it to the wolves of private enterprise. Ill see your UPS/USPS example and raise you with damn near EVERY NURSING HOME IN THE MIDWES. If you want to see the fruits of private enterprise in an industry that isn't profitable, like education isn't, then go take your dear old grandma down to the local private nursing home in the midwest. Really give that free trade capitalism thing a high five when you see her again and she smells like piss and bologna.



I've said it before but it bears repeating. Instead of using new dollars to pay for outdatable computers, teachers salaries when they get M.A.'s and a union membership, high tech facilities we should prepare them for what it is like when they graduate by assimilating them into a system of positive reinforcement for their effort. Pay the kids. None of you would work if you didn't get paid to do so. You don't get off knowing that you are learning something new or getting better at what you know. Same here. This isn't an age where kids want to learn in order to get off the farm and not be a farmer. Nor is it a time where segregation makes an equal opportunity sweet. Nor is it a time where apprenticeships are around to let them know what it's like to have a master. Pay the kids. Not only will they learn to associate self sufficiency with their own effort (which will reduce a sense of entitlement) but it will also allow an opportunity to have funds saved for post-HS life. It can act as a deterrent for dropping out of school. It could pay on a scale according to effort. It's about motivating kids instead of paying a teachers salary. No Child Left Behind doesn't work because kids have a RANGE of abilities and life circumstances. Private Schools will only work for those who can AFFORD to send their kids to better schools while anyone else gets to fuck off. We need, and clearly benefit from, public schools. I think it's just a matter of coming up with new ideas that will motivate the kids to take advantage of the effort to prepare them for life in America.

 

[jasendorf]

why do college, and even some high schools, have such liberal bias?.

Oh, this one's too easy.

 

[karlos4473]

As a former teacher of considerable experience I can speak with an inside
perspective. Where the student body is good, the school is good.
The attempt to school kids from bad homes is overwhelming. A few who
have a strong parent will overcome and escape a crap neighborhood.
The remainder will be fortunate to land a job at Walmart or Radio
Shack. Many will end up in the justice system. We don't need
Leave no Child Behind or other public relations bullshit. A better
idea is to find a place to warehouse the uneducable. I welcome
your responses. Peace brother and find somebode to egekate Bush.

 

[Gem]

I think that the problem with education (and for complete disclosure: I am a teacher with a dual M.Ed. in Elementary and Special Education who is certified to teach elementary, special, middle school math and middle school English) is the giant elephant in the room that none of our politicians are talking about.

Just listen to them. They will talk a lot about standards and testing. They will talk a lot about teacher education and training, teacher salaries, etc. They will talk about moving students from poor districts to wealthy ones...or they will talk about giving families the choice of what district their children attend. They will talk about holding teachers accountable for the success of the student. They will talk about requiring students to pass basic achievement tests in order to graduate. They will go on and on and on....

But they will never mention that unless a parent/guardian is reinforcing the notion that education is worthwhile, important, and that their child is required to put in some effort in order to remain out of trouble at home...often all of the great intentions of the educators and administrators are in vain.

I like to think that I am a pretty good teacher. I am young however, so I know I have a lot to learn. However, I do know that students can learn from bad teachers and good teachers alike - they just enjoy the good teachers a lot more, and tend to retain more of what they learned for longer periods of time.

But truthfully, and I am being painfully honest here...if your parents say to you and stick to the belief that "Your job in this house is to get an education. And frankly, we don't care if you hate the teacher...you will bring home a B or better or there will be hell to pay." Your child (provided he/she is of average intelligence without any learning disabilities or emotional disabilities that may come into play - although in many cases this would apply to these students as well) will figure out a way to pass the asshole teacher's class as successfully or almost as successfully as the awesome teacher's class.

Please understand, I think that teachers are integral to the process. I think that good educators can make all the difference in the world. I, if I do my job well, can inspire a love of learning in my students that can last a lifetime. I can awaken their minds to the joys of mathematics, English literature, world cultures, etc. I can be there for them when they need me and help to teach them trust, loyalty, responsibility, discipline, and how hard work can pay off. I can teach them to be kind, good people (who know how to do basic Algebra and value the importance of history).

But if I don't have a parent on my side...the job is often, almost impossible.

Politicians seem to be interested in pointing the finger everywhere else on earth...except at parents. YOU have to make school a priority in your home.
And I do not seem that happening for many students in my class.

Some examples:

- After assigning a math project and giving my students a 4 day weekend to complete it...one of my students came in with a note from his mother reading: "Bobby had a busy weekend with sports and family events. We just could not get to all of his assignments. I hope you understand."

- When calling a parent to discuss my concerns about her son not paying attention in class and not turning in work she stated "Thank you so much for calling. I have been working on the honor system here that the boys were getting their work done and I guess we'll just have to go back to the method of the boys sitting around the table while I sit there and watch them do their work." Sounds great, right? While flipping back through this students file I saw a record of a phone call from last March, when the previous teacher had called about homework concerns...Mom had said, "He's been doing his homework in his room and I've just been taking his word that its done, you know...like the honor system. From now on he and his brothers will be doing their work with me at the kitchen table."

- When calling a parent to discuss a paper that a student hadn't turned in, a father told a fellow teacher - "Just get off his ass...you get him from 7 till 3...after that...what he wants to do is up to him...get off his ass."

I could go on and on...but the bottom line is: I can teach my little butt off, I can come up with interesting, hands-on, amazing lessons, create assessments that are valid and worthwhile...but if I have parents who are absent, uncaring, or downright hostile to the importance of their child's education...my job has gone from damn tough to almost impossible.

And yet...I have yet to hear a politician say much of anything other than "We need to hold teachers accountable..." I can tell you right now...I am REALLY F*CKING ACCOUNTABLE for my students' education. My school district is REALLY ACCOUNTABLE, my state is REALLY ACCOUNTABLE.

In fact, the only people who don't seem to be accountable for my students' educations are the students themselves and their parents.

 

[Shogun]

I agree on the lack of concerned parents..

this is one more reason why paying the kids will motivate them beyond their parents' efforts. Focus on the kids and let them earn or lose according to their own behaviour. Perhaps johnny would skip the sports if he knew that blowing a test would cost him 50 bucks.

 

[Gem]

The one major problem I have with paying students for their work is that I feel it is basically raising the white flag in the battle of getting parents involved with their child's education and saying:

"Ok. We surrender. We accept that parents today are self-interested assholes who would rather concentrate on their own things than teaching their children that an education is invaluable. Therefore, we will take over that role...and we will do so quickly and easily by treating school like work."

I'm not ready to get to the point where I allow the state to take complete control. I think that would be a horrible mistake.

There HAS to be a way to get parents to wake-up and return to a place where they make their children do the work needed to become educated.


(p.s. I am speaking in generalities. I know that their are GREAT parents out there who are doing their jobs and doing them well. To them...all I can say is, "THANK YOU!" Sometimes you are the only thing keeping me from slamming my head into my chalkboard until I pass out.")

 

[Shogun]

Fair enough... I guess I don't consider paying kids the same as taking over where the parents are lacking. when push comes to shove there is no way we can force people to be better parents and, while trying, the kids suffer.

I'm trying to think of something that will become motivating for the kids in order to circumvent pressure on parents AND teachers while better preparing them for how our society works in regards to work ethic and self sufficiency.


I really do think it would work too. I wish I had an extra pile of cash laying around to use as seed money for such an experiment. I could be the next Phillip Zimbardo!

 

[Psychoblues]

Are you just stupid or pretending to be?

Err wait, you're using the postal service as an example? Surely you have heard of UPS, FedEx, DHL? Surely it would not be a stretch for them to deliver the mail? (They can't deliver regular mail, because the USPS has a legal monopoly).

Also, TVA sucks too, because government economic planning sucks in general. Sure, you can provide Product A at a sub-market cost in one place, but everyone else will have to pay more. Here's what Ronald Reagan had to say about it:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_Valley_Authority

No postal service in the WORLD can deliver mail as cheaply and efficiently as the USPS. No government service in the WORLD can deliver power, provide flood control and imbellish local economies as cheaply and efficiently as the TVA. No hospital in the WORLD can provide the healthcare and medical reasearch to even compare with the VA and it's budget constraints.

Ronald Reagan is dead. He was a sorry excuse for a president and an even further sorry excuse for a leader of the economy and it is common knowledge at this point that he had little other than pitiful to add to the international relations department.

 

[Psychoblues]

A few days with no response. I maintain that I am correct and the others are simply detractors and looking for an otherwise unjustified argument.

 

[midcan5]

Actsnoblemartin,

"why do college, and even some high schools, have such liberal bias?"

In my opinion they don't. I am wondering how most subjects get to be liberal? Of course, if the professor is smart and knowledgeable she is probably a liberal but that is another debate. Tell me how you liberalize algebra?


"Why isnt free speech, and more open debate promoted, and why arent students taught how to critically analyze/think, rather then told what to think."

That's a good question and you serve as the perfect example. Had you experienced those things you wouldn't ask such dumb questions. So you tell us about your education and family life and we'll see if anything pertinent stands out.


"what would you do to improve education?, what do you like/dislike about education"

Make everyone upper middle class. I would advise all children to pick parents in that class category. I see them often and even the bums eventually do Ok. Just look at the fool in the whitehouse.

Any more tough questions?

 

[midcan5]

Ronald Reagan is dead. He was a sorry excuse for a president and an even further sorry excuse for a leader of the economy and it is common knowledge at this point that he had little other than pitiful to add to the international relations department.

So so true, and the irony is he is the best the republicans can do.

 

[Psychoblues]

Vivo El Reagan!!!!!!!!!!

So so true, and the irony is he is the best the republicans can do.

Did I say that right?

 

[BaronVonBigmeat]

No postal service in the WORLD can deliver mail as cheaply and efficiently as the USPS. No government service in the WORLD can deliver power, provide flood control and imbellish local economies as cheaply and efficiently as the TVA. No hospital in the WORLD can provide the healthcare and medical reasearch to even compare with the VA and it's budget constraints.

If no one can deliver mail as cheaply and efficiently as the USPS does, then why do FedEx and UPS exist? And why is there a need to have a law which prohibits them from competing with the USPS in regular mail?

Did you even read the link I gave concerning Regan's criticisms of TVA? If so, by all means respond to the specifics. I'm not a Reagan groupie, but I simply agree with this particular speech. That doesn't mean I endorse everything he ever did. Just like I like some of Kucinich's speeches, but don't endorse him wholesale.

Also, when you talk about "embellishing" local economies, you do it at the expense of the rest of the economy, and one the whole, it's less efficient and reduces living standards. For example, the southern states get more back from the government than they put in. It's easy to see the specific benefit that Program (x) brought, but it is not so easy to make a list of the things the private sector could have done if those resources had not been taken away. Rest assured though, they do exist.

 

[Bern80]

what would you do to improve education?, what do you like/dislike about education

your thoughts?

In short, privatize more of it. Instead of makeing parents who choose private education pay twice, give them a tax credit.

Jason Lewis probably has the most well articulated insight into the sham that is public education. If you have the chance take a listen to him sometime.

Where to start with the problems:

The main one would be the teachers unions. As with most unions they have moved away from their intended purpose of protecting teachers. They have turned into and are motivated by the same things that motivate most politicians. That being the struggle to show their constiuency that they are actually needed. I find it a bit peculiar that an institution that derives all of its funding from the government needs the protection of a union.

Our state (MN) had off year elections where much of the voting surrounded school referendums. Of course many of them passed because most people for the 'it's for the children' Bull shit. I have yet to see a report that shows that increased funding correlates to smarter children. Many of the these referendums were actually renewals of old referendums. I would have to think any moderately intelligent person should be asking, questions like what did you do with the money we gave you last time for the same project?

One major thing that needs to change is that what schools are spending on needs to be far more transparent and accessible to the public. Currently trying to get specifics such as a line item fiscal report out of a school district is like pulling teeth.

Right now our education system is a sham mainly because government has monopolized it and doesn't allow for competition where standards can be set and measured.