Zone1 Why do members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Baptize for the Dead?

[GLASNOST]

MORMONISM

Faith in a Satanic Cult that supports and glorifies murdering innocent men, women, and children simply for being from another country.

The name of our Church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Do you see the name Satan anywhere in the name?

Mormonism is not Satanic by decree but by default in its denial of the Messiah and departure of the Covenant between Man and God. Being “anti” (in that sense) can be considered Satanic. Then there is the fact that Mormons justify the murder of people for no other reason than they just happen to live in other countries. This is stark proof that Mormonism is SATANIC.

Jesus Christ is ….. not a prophet.

Jesus Christ was most certainly a prophet who probably didn’t say any of that crap you are spewing from Joseph Smith whose texts have been changed and redacted thousands and thousands of times in attempts to keep you (pl.) sucking his teat. By throwing tantrums and screaming, it just proves beyond any shadow of doubt that your faith is weak. You are seeking attention and inadvertently begging for someone to help you escape the Cult of the Mormon Church.

Your faith is weak.

What faith are you talking about? Would you care to define it?

You are in a cult

A cult of what? Can you describe it? Does it have a name? Who's the leader?

 

[Meriweather]

Like I said, they are not forcing any baptism on anybody. If a dead person refuses to accept it, then it is of no effect and is not forced upon them. In the spirit world they are given the opportunity to accept or reject it. It is the will of the Lord that the work be done so that they have a choice. A person in this life once they die may decide to change their mind and accept the gospel of Jesus Christ and want to be baptized. However, they cannot enter the waters of baptism in the spirit world but would need to have it done by proxy. Thus if nobody does their work, they would not be able to enter the kingdom of God. So from our view, if the person still retains the choice to accept it or reject it, then it is not forced upon them. It really has no meaning to those who reject it and is of no effect. But for those who wish to accept it, their work is done and they can gain access to the kingdom of God. So there's really no reason for you to get butt hurt over us doing this work since it does not take away anyone's free will to accept baptism or any other ordinance performed in their behalf. But like I said, the opportunity is left open to those who are in the spirit world and is not to be denied by them or any other living relative while living in this world. This is the will of God that we do this work so that the dead will still have the opportunity if they change their minds in the world of spirits. God does not want that opportunity thwarted in the event that they change their minds and accept his gospel in the hereafter. The dead are allowed to make that choice in the world of spirits. God still wants them to have that choice even after they are dead.

1 Peter 4:6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

You still are not hearing what is being said, but continue to doggedly to insist on an equivocation fallacy. LDS is still baptizing before receiving the word of acceptance from the person they are baptizing. Do you ever baptize the living when a living person tells you before the baptism ceremony they have no wish to be baptized and they will not accept the baptism. Do you then baptize that person anyway, telling them they only have to tell you after the baptism takes place they do not accept it? That their free will takes place after the fact?

What is not being addressed: Why LDS, in these modern times, cannot have a computerized register of those who are ready and prepared to tell them now they do not wish to have this proxy "baptism"? Why deny free will to us while we are living?

 

[Meriweather]

But I have. Screeching, jumping up and down like a 2 year old wanting a cookie, isn't going to help here on any topic. Let me attempt some basic logic and reasoning. Others on here have approved of what I've stated about this.

Again, your only course is to fall back on insults. Why not accept people feel strongly about this and that LDS cannot accept the strength of these objections, not to mention the logic being presented? Do you recall scripture saying one can be hot or cold, but the luke warm gets spit out? LDS wants people to be lukewarm about what they are doing, not hotly accepting of it, nor coldly rejecting it. Does LDS counsel their members that the way to handle the hot and cold is to be, not loving and understanding with the opposition, but to be insulting? Perhaps the motivation of insults is to get people to back away because they might fear the insults? If so, it's not working with me. Your insults have no more impact or value than those proxy "baptisms".

1. You don't believe baptism for the dead works. But, you object because you think it bothers them somehow. Illogical. So, why get all worked up about it?

I have told me that what bothers me is that technology is now possible for LDS to offer a register to those who are living today that they choose not to have a proxy "baptism" after their death. Free will. Why won't LDS honor our free will while we are living?

Pretty simple, huh? Now, most of the names presented for temple work are from family members already and always have been. Yes, I'm sure there have been members submitting names of famous people who they are not related to. But, reality now days is there is probably someone in the Church who is related to those famous people who have had their work done for them. So, it would eventually happen anyways.

Please don't misrepresent--even lie--about "family" members. LDS members today--and always--have claimed very distant relations as family for the purpose of proxy "baptism". Not only that, they use sloppy genealogy practices to jump into a line that is not even their own bloodline. I absolutely know this as I have been working genealogy since I was ten.

As for sending out requests for people to decide right now whether they want their work done for them or not is really pointless since family members can override that once they are deceased. And, since people change their minds all the time, what's the point? And, once they are dead and have the Gospel properly taught to them, they may decide to want to be baptized and welcome our works for them on their behalf. I have done many ordinances work for people who I'm not related do whose names were submitted by family members. And, while doing the work I've felt many times that those who are dead were accepting the work. So, I have the faith to do their work for them.

That has been my point all along....LDS even overriding the known will of the deceased. Free will, while treasured and valued to so many of us, means not a whit to LDS. It's their will that matters, not the will of the individual.

 

[Cougarbear]

Again, your only course is to fall back on insults. Why not accept people feel strongly about this and that LDS cannot accept the strength of these objections, not to mention the logic being presented? Do you recall scripture saying one can be hot or cold, but the luke warm gets spit out? LDS wants people to be lukewarm about what they are doing, not hotly accepting of it, nor coldly rejecting it. Does LDS counsel their members that the way to handle the hot and cold is to be, not loving and understanding with the opposition, but to be insulting? Perhaps the motivation of insults is to get people to back away because they might fear the insults? If so, it's not working with me. Your insults have no more impact or value than those proxy "baptisms".

I have told me that what bothers me is that technology is now possible for LDS to offer a register to those who are living today that they choose not to have a proxy "baptism" after their death. Free will. Why won't LDS honor our free will while we are living?



Please don't misrepresent--even lie--about "family" members. LDS members today--and always--have claimed very distant relations as family for the purpose of proxy "baptism". Not only that, they use sloppy genealogy practices to jump into a line that is not even their own bloodline. I absolutely know this as I have been working genealogy since I was ten.



That has been my point all along....LDS even overriding the known will of the deceased. Free will, while treasured and valued to so many of us, means not a whit to LDS. It's their will that matters, not the will of the individual.

You don’t believe the dead have free will to take what they learn in the spirit world and change what they want like to be baptized by proxy. You ignore their wishes in spirit prison.
Again, what you are also arguing against free religious expression. You want only your warped opinion to be the law. Our religious expression includes proclaim the true Gospel, Work to bring the living to exaltation, help the poor and the needy and to Redeem the Dead. I’ll ask it again, why do you go crazy over something you don’t believe works? Who then is it hurting? If it is false doctrine, it bothers or hurts no one with a clear logical and reasoning. Your temper tantrums are not valid.

 

[Cougarbear]

Again, your only course is to fall back on insults. Why not accept people feel strongly about this and that LDS cannot accept the strength of these objections, not to mention the logic being presented? Do you recall scripture saying one can be hot or cold, but the luke warm gets spit out? LDS wants people to be lukewarm about what they are doing, not hotly accepting of it, nor coldly rejecting it. Does LDS counsel their members that the way to handle the hot and cold is to be, not loving and understanding with the opposition, but to be insulting? Perhaps the motivation of insults is to get people to back away because they might fear the insults? If so, it's not working with me. Your insults have no more impact or value than those proxy "baptisms".

I have told me that what bothers me is that technology is now possible for LDS to offer a register to those who are living today that they choose not to have a proxy "baptism" after their death. Free will. Why won't LDS honor our free will while we are living?



Please don't misrepresent--even lie--about "family" members. LDS members today--and always--have claimed very distant relations as family for the purpose of proxy "baptism". Not only that, they use sloppy genealogy practices to jump into a line that is not even their own bloodline. I absolutely know this as I have been working genealogy since I was ten.



That has been my point all along....LDS even overriding the known will of the deceased. Free will, while treasured and valued to so many of us, means not a whit to LDS. It's their will that matters, not the will of the individual.

As to your genealogy comment, laugh hard on your thinking that you are superior to LDS Genealogists and the entire work. Our tools are far superior to what you have and you probably use our tools as well. That was rich.

And, the idea of using email to ask that question is funny. Really no logic or reasoning behind it.

 

[GLASNOST]

You don’t believe the dead have free will

Stupid question. As a member of the Mormon Cult you don't have free will ...... and you're not even dead.

 

[DennisPTate]

Stupid question. As a member of the Mormon Cult you don't have free will ...... and you're not even dead.

Actually I was mentored by about fourteen Latter day Saint Elders and two Sisters and I found them to be the most well read and open minded Christians that I have ever met in my life.

Latter day Saints are allowed to study and learn from near death experience accounts but many religious leaders will discourage anybody from reading them because many religious leaders want to have a monopoly over what people read and research.

I feel that I am a little too "Jewish" to become a full fledged Latter day Saint but I have seriously considered that option.

 

[Meriweather]

You don’t believe

You clearly haven't a clue as to what I believe about that, and so you made something up! How easily you put your own words into someone else's mouth...probably something you learned was okay by that proxy "baptism" procedure?

 

[Meriweather]

As to your genealogy comment, laugh hard on your thinking that you are superior to LDS Genealogists and the entire work. Our tools are far superior to what you have and you probably use our tools as well. That was rich.

It's not about me thinking I was superior. It's a matter of journalistic training where one must find three different sources before accepting something as fact. Second, having in my possessions hand-written letters proving the correct path of the family genealogy surpasses "tools". I learned quickly not to trust that "superior" LDS researched genealogy.

And, the idea of using email to ask that question is funny. Really no logic or reasoning behind it.

I said nothing about using email. You are truly fond of putting your words into the mouths of others. I said LDS should have a way to register all those who choose not to have a proxy baptism after they have passed on.

Isn't it true that the LDS Church and/or its members keep such lists/registration of the names of those who died so they can proxy baptism a year following their death? They sure did after my grandmother's death--and they never knew her. She was just on a list as a descendant of a distant ancestor, and someone had to have checked that she was also not a member of the LDS faith.

 

[Cougarbear]

Stupid question. As a member of the Mormon Cult you don't have free will ...... and you're not even dead.

I have all the free moral agency I want. I bet you can’t convert to Christianity without being threatened by insane Islamic terrorists.

 

[Cougarbear]

It's not about me thinking I was superior. It's a matter of journalistic training where one must find three different sources before accepting something as fact. Second, having in my possessions hand-written letters proving the correct path of the family genealogy surpasses "tools". I learned quickly not to trust that "superior" LDS researched genealogy.



I said nothing about using email. You are truly fond of putting your words into the mouths of others. I said LDS should have a way to register all those who choose not to have a proxy baptism after they have passed on.

Isn't it true that the LDS Church and/or its members keep such lists/registration of the names of those who died so they can proxy baptism a year following their death? They sure did after my grandmother's death--and they never knew her. She was just on a list as a descendant of a distant ancestor, and someone had to have checked that she was also not a member of the LDS faith.

I've had to correct professional genealogists even with there 3 source efforts. In fact, I go in periodically to see who messed up the genealogy of certain lines. The tools you use are mostly those we built long ago. We do our due diligence. Funny! I checked a version of the Catholic Encyclopedia back in 1978 to see if it had anything about baptisms for the dead. That version, no longer can find (I wonder why ) stated that they lost the method of doing baptisms for the dead and so they dropped it. False Church.

So, genius, how do you propose to get everyone in the world to answer a survey to see if they want to be baptized by proxy after they die? Snail mail? Email? What? Most people won't open their mail whether snail mail or email. Even if they do, they won't answer it for fear of ID theft fraud. There is no way to register people. Oh, we might get 0.000001% of the earth's population to answer. No, if you are so irritated over this, something you claim isn't real, then you try registering people for this. Just remember, family can override it. Free religious expression.

 

[Cougarbear]

It's not about me thinking I was superior. It's a matter of journalistic training where one must find three different sources before accepting something as fact. Second, having in my possessions hand-written letters proving the correct path of the family genealogy surpasses "tools". I learned quickly not to trust that "superior" LDS researched genealogy.



I said nothing about using email. You are truly fond of putting your words into the mouths of others. I said LDS should have a way to register all those who choose not to have a proxy baptism after they have passed on.

Isn't it true that the LDS Church and/or its members keep such lists/registration of the names of those who died so they can proxy baptism a year following their death? They sure did after my grandmother's death--and they never knew her. She was just on a list as a descendant of a distant ancestor, and someone had to have checked that she was also not a member of the LDS faith.

If she was a member with her work already done, she would not need proxy baptism. If she isn't a member, and no LDS member submitted the name, there is a time frame of like 70 years after death before it can be performed. When I was first doing endowment work in the 1970's where we would have a name and death date, the date was always in the 1800's or earlier. So, I don't know where you are getting your one year thing.

 

[onefour1]

You still are not hearing what is being said, but continue to doggedly to insist on an equivocation fallacy. LDS is still baptizing before receiving the word of acceptance from the person they are baptizing. Do you ever baptize the living when a living person tells you before the baptism ceremony they have no wish to be baptized and they will not accept the baptism. Do you then baptize that person anyway, telling them they only have to tell you after the baptism takes place they do not accept it? That their free will takes place after the fact?

What is not being addressed: Why LDS, in these modern times, cannot have a computerized register of those who are ready and prepared to tell them now they do not wish to have this proxy "baptism"? Why deny free will to us while we are living?

You act like one must get permission in advance from every person in this life before that act can be performed in behalf of that individual. Did Jesus get everybody's permission to atone for their sins before suffering for the sins of all mankind and being nailed to a cross? NO! He has performed it his great atoning sacrifice in behalf of all mankind without setting up a computerized register to see who wants his sacrifice or not. But did this take away their free will agency to accept or reject his atonement? NO!! Both the living and the dead have a choice to receive or reject Jesus and can still choose hell over heaven of their own free will and choice. The work for the dead is similar. We don't have the ability to interact with the dead directly and ask them if they wish to be baptized or not. They all could very well change their minds once they hear the gospel in the hereafter and God does not want them to subject to the choice they made only in this life. But since they cannot perform baptism by water in the world of spirits, it is command of us to perform baptisms for the dead in the case that they do accept the gospel in the world of spirits. They still can reject it there but if they choose to accept, then like the atonement of Christ, the work has been done and they can receive salvation in the kingdom of God. Free will is not hindered and the work is only of affect once a person accepts the work just as the atonement of Christ for the forgiveness of sins is only of affect when a person has faith in Christ and repents of his sins. The work was done but is only of effect once a person accepts it. Do you believe that Christ went among the spirit of the dead and preached his gospel? If so, do you believe that they still had the opportunity to accept or reject the gospel or do think it is forced upon them? The baptisms performed on their behalf are not valid unless they actually receive baptism in the hereafter. Nothing is binding upon them unless they personally accept the baptism. But the Lord has asked us to perform these ordinances in the event that they accept it and thus like the atonement, it has been done and they can find entrance into the kingdom of God.

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Under your assumption, all Atheists and Non-Christians should have computer systems set up among all Christians sects to decide in they want the atonement of Jesus Christ performed for them. It was done without their permission in this life, and thus according to you it is being forced upon them. Good luck with that.

 

[Cougarbear]

You act like one must get permission in advance from every person in this life before that act can be performed in behalf of that individual. Did Jesus get everybody's permission to atone for their sins before suffering for the sins of all mankind and being nailed to a cross? NO! He has performed it his great atoning sacrifice in behalf of all mankind without setting up a computerized register to see who wants his sacrifice or not. But did this take away their free will agency to accept or reject his atonement? NO!! Both the living and the dead have a choice to receive or reject Jesus and can still choose hell over heaven of their own free will and choice. The work for the dead is similar. We don't have the ability to interact with the dead directly and ask them if they wish to be baptized or not. They all could very well change their minds once they hear the gospel in the hereafter and God does not want them to subject to the choice they made only in this life. But since they cannot perform baptism by water in the world of spirits, it is command of us to perform baptisms for the dead in the case that they do accept the gospel in the world of spirits. They still can reject it there but if they choose to accept, then like the atonement of Christ, the work has been done and they can receive salvation in the kingdom of God. Free will is not hindered and the work is only of affect once a person accepts the work just as the atonement of Christ for the forgiveness of sins is only of affect when a person has faith in Christ and repents of his sins. The work was done but is only of effect once a person accepts it. Do you believe that Christ went among the spirit of the dead and preached his gospel? If so, do you believe that they still had the opportunity to accept or reject the gospel or do think it is forced upon them? The baptisms performed on their behalf are not valid unless they actually receive baptism in the hereafter. Nothing is binding upon them unless they personally accept the baptism. But the Lord has asked us to perform these ordinances in the event that they accept it and thus like the atonement, it has been done and they can find entrance into the kingdom of God.

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Under your assumption, all Atheists and Non-Christians should have computer systems set up among all Christians sects to decide in they want the atonement of Jesus Christ performed for them. It was done without their permission in this life, and thus according to you it is being forced upon them. Good luck with that.

That’s going to give her a headache.

 

[GLASNOST]

Actually I was mentored by about fourteen Latter day Saint Elders and two Sisters and I found them to be the most well read and open minded Christians that I have ever met in my life.

That is so sad and I don't even know where to begin to describe it. There are so many things to be said about that.

 

[Cougarbear]

That is so sad and I don't even know where to begin to describe it. There are so many things to be said about that.

He's correct! I found the same to be true when I was ready to convert from Judaism to Christianity. And, Islam was a joke because it belittles Jesus Christ to just being a prophet of God and not God. Or, part of the Godhead. I found Islam to be a mind control religion with fear as the way to keep people from leaving.

 

[GLASNOST]

As a member of the Mormon Cult you don't have free will ......

I have all the free moral agency I want.

Poodles and Chihuahuas are satisfied with being taken out to pee and have a dump twice a day but if they want to have an extra sniff-around they are pulled away by their collar.

I bet you can’t convert to Christianity without being threatened by insane Islamic terrorists.

I’ll let you know if I ever give it a try.

 

[GLASNOST]

... Islam ..... belittles Jesus Christ to just being a prophet of God and not God.

That can only be considered "belittlement" if your moral agency is stifled. And the fact that Islam preaches Jesus as a prophet [not God] proves [without doubt] that Islam isn't as primitive as we think it is!

 

[Cougarbear]

Poodles and Chihuahuas are satisfied with being taken out to pee and have a dump twice a day but if they want to have an extra sniff-around they are pulled away by their collar.

I’ll let you know if I ever give it a try.

You won't. You live in fear once you are in their cult.

 

[Cougarbear]

That can only be considered "belittlement" if your moral agency is stifled. And the fact that Islam preaches Jesus as a prophet [not God] proves [without doubt] that Islam isn't as primitive as we think it is!

Don't see how you use the "proves" word. You proved only you are an idiot. Islam is primitive as you must kill to keep your cult people in line.