Zone1 Why can't there be a serious intellectual discusion about Jesus' gender and sexuality?

[ThisIsMe]

Many church elect admit this, it has become common knowledge that even this recent pope admitted.
Throughout the RCC they mention the texts and traditions, these mysteries, they borrowed from Babylon.
Church elect have admited they borrowed from them as you know.
The Development of the Christian Religion Cardinal Newman p.359
but he also had quoted about the books not written by those attributed to.
Others:
Religion writer and former Anglican priest Tom Harpur admits he's sticking his neck out for proffering that someone named Jesus never walked this Earth

Dr. I. Hooykaas, Nineteenth--Century Reverend:
Not one of these five books (four Gospels and Acts) [was] really written by the person whose name it bears, and they are all of more recent date than the heading would lead us to suppose.
9. Drs. H. Oort, I. Hooykaas, and A. Kuneh, The Bible for Learners, trans. Philip A. Wieksteed (Boston, 1878), vol. 3, p. 24.

St. Faustus, Fifth--Century French Bishop:
Many things have been inserted by our ancestors in the speeches of our Lord which, though put forth under his name, agree not with his faith; especially since-as already it has been often proved-these things were written not by Christ, nor [by] his apostles, but a long while after their assumption, by I know not what sort of half Jews, not even agreeing with themselves, who made up their tale out of reports and opinions merely, and yet, fathering the whole upon the names of the apostles of the Lord or on those who were supposed to follow the apostles, they maliciously pretended that they had written their lies and conceits according to them.10
It is certain that the New Testament was not written by Christ himself, nor by his apostles, but a long while after them, by some unknown persons, who, lest they should not be credited when they wrote of affairs they were little acquainted with, affixed to their works the names of the apostles, or of such as were supposed to have been their companions, asserting that what they had written themselves was written according to these persons to whom they ascribed it.11

To strengthen belief in the resurrection of Jesus, St. Irenaeus invented many stories of others being raised from the dead.12
As Jeremiah Jones, an eighteenth--century reverend, comments:
Such pious frauds were very common among Christians even in the first three centuries; and a forgery of this nature, with the view above mentioned, seems natural and probable.13
10. Taylor, Diegesis, p. 66. 11. Ibid., p. 114. 12. Doane, p. 231. 13. Ibid.

"Should one continue to base one's life on a system of belief that--for all its occasional wisdom and frequent beauty--is demonstrably untrue?"-- Charles Templeton, former right-hand man to Billy Graham in Farewell to God

Some of the "great" church fathers, such as Eusebius, were determined by their own peers to be unbelievable liars who regularly wrote their own fictions of what "the Lord" said, and did,during "his" alleged sojourn upon the earth.
In fact, Pope Leo X, privy to the truth because of his high rank, made this curious declaration, "What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!"
Dr. Herbert Marsh, Nineteenth--Century English Bishop:
It is a certain fact that several readings in our common printed text are nothing more than alterations made by Origen, whose authority was so great in the Christian Church (A.D. 230) that emendations which he proposed, though, as he himself acknowledged, they were supported by the evidence of no manuscript, were very generally received.*
*Michaelis, Introduction to the New Testament, ed. Dr. Herbert Marsh (London, 1828), vol. 2, p. 368.

Johann Lorenz Von Mosheim, Eighteenth--Century Ecclesiastical Historian:
Not long after Christ's ascension into heaven, several histories of his life and doctrines, full of pious frauds and fabulous wonders, were composed by persons whose intentions perhaps were not bad, but whose writings discovered the greatest superstition and ignorance. Nor was this all; productions appeared which were imposed upon the world by fraudulent men, [such] as the writings of the holy apostles.
* Von Mosheim, Ecclesiastical History (London, 1810), vol. 1, p. 109.

St. Gregory, Fourth--Century Bishop of Nazianzus, writing to St.Jerome:
A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire. Our forefathers and doctors have often said not what they thought, but what circumstances and necessity dictated.
7. C. F. Volney, The Ruins (Boston, 1872), p. 177.

Charles Chiniquy, a man who was 50 years in the Roman Church and 25 years a Roman priest said: "It was certainly our desire, as well as our interest, to believe them (the dogmas, precepts and practices of Rome). But how our faith was shaken, and how we felt troubled when Livy, Tacitus, Cicero, Virgil, Homer, etc., gave us evidence that the greater part of these things had their root and origin in paganism." Of course he meant by this, mystery Babylon.
He then went on to give an illustration and told how they had been told to trust in the scapulars (the sleeveless outer garment of a priest or monk), medals, holy water, etc., because they would keep them safe and aid in battling the temptations of life. But, how again their faith was shaken when in reading the Greek and Latin historians, they found the same things involved with the worship of Jupiter, Minerva, Diana and Venus (the mother-child cult).

Dr. Conyers Middleton, Eighteenth Century:
There never was any period of time in all ecclesiastical history in which so many rank heresies were publicly professed nor in which so many spurious books were forged and published by the Christians, under the names of Christ, and the apostles, and the apostolic writers, as in those primitive ages. Several of these forged books are frequently cited, and applied [in] defense of Christianity, by the most eminent fathers of the same ages, as true and genuine pieces.
8. Middleton, vol. 1, p. 59.

So the catholic church is denying the veracity of the Bible?


Hmm, good thing I'm not catholic...

 

[irosie91]

Again, the entire post a presentation of mishmash and lack of research. I am highlighting the above because not once have I ever used Isaiah 14:12-14 to describe Lucifer. That's because I do the research, study the language, study the culture and the history of that time.

I feel no need to find stories of people with identical names, mix them together with stories occurring in another time and present an entirely different story as "truth". Anyway, I see what you are doing, and due to the clear lack of research, it doesn't interest me.

What does interest me: Why you fear Jesus so much you feel he must be destroyed. Have you read his teachings? Have you read his parables, doing the research that can match them up with already popular Jewish parables being told in his own time?

so true----Jesus (as presented in the NT) is entirely involved
with jewish culture of the time----he quotes talmud, mishneh
parables and Hillel incessantly

 

[HaShev]

Yeah, you go with that. Meanwhile, Satan has you hooked through the bag.

I'm not one of the deceived, Majority(to be deceived) is not the Minority, only Satanists would blame the lesser for what the majority does.

 

[irosie91]

I'm not one of the deceived, Majority(to be deceived) is not the Minority, only Satanists would blame the lesser for what the majority does.

"satanists" ?

 

[HaShev]

"satanists" ?

hinderers/ adversaries

 

[irosie91]

Exodus didn't happen as described, God didn't really bring about a great flood to wipe out humanity and the Tower of Babel wasn't about God scattering men because of their progress in building a tower.

But Paul was a real person just like Moses was a real person.

But you keep on evangelizing against the Christian faith because that's a failed behavior which leads to predictable surprises.

yes---Paul was a real person----with an agenda which he
ZEALOUSLY promoted. He reminds me of the Bengal
Tigers of Ceylon (uhm---make that Sri Lanka)---I will try
not to mention Oliver Cromwell or Martin Luther and
will delete Joseph Smith altogether. Judge Hawthorne
is an interesting character----but not part of the discussion

 

[irosie91]

hinderers/ adversaries

ok---but ^^^^ not the commonly recognized
definition thereof by the jelly-bean set. Satan is
EMPEROR OF HELL (see Alighieri Dante)

 

[shimon]

ok---but ^^^^ not the commonly recognized
definition thereof by the jelly-bean set. Satan is
EMPEROR OF HELL (see Alighieri Dante)

The Original concept of Satanist was someone or something that stands in your way way.. Not some powerful being that had supernatural powers … So let’s say I wanted to walk through a door but someone was standing in my way and was trying to stop me then they would be Satanic against me… Christianity and Christian’s that hold onto mistaken concepts are Satan in this world because they teach the opposite of the original concepts as found in the Jewish scriptures and are thwarting or trying to thwart the coming messianic age by saying the coming messiah is the anti christ even though their concept of Jesus as written in their books comepletely fulfills that role as he did everything opposite of what the true role of Moschiach is to be… Either Christianity gets deprogrammed and realizes these facts or the world continues on on its merry way for thousands of more years of craziness and mistaken ideals..Ironically the Islamic world have it down pat as they call Israel the little Satan and American the big Satan as we stand in their way of world domination…

 

[irosie91]

The Original concept of Satanist was someone or something that stands in your way way.. Not some powerful being that had supernatural powers … So let’s say I wanted to walk through a door but someone was standing in my way and was trying to stop me then they would be Satanic against me… Christianity and Christian’s that hold onto mistaken concepts are Satan in this world because they teach the opposite of the original concepts as found in the Jewish scriptures and are thwarting or trying to thwart the coming messianic age by saying the coming messiah is the anti christ even though their concept of Jesus as written in their books comepletely fulfills that role as he did everything opposite of what the true role of Moschiach is to be… Either Christianity gets deprogrammed and realizes these facts or the world continues on on its merry way for thousands of more years of craziness and mistaken ideals..Ironically the Islamic world have it down pat as they call Israel the little Satan and American the big Satan as we stand in their way of world domination…

sheeeesh-----you need some jelly-bean school time. Satan "the cosmic prosecuting attorney" -----is pure jew and BOOOORING Satan living under the red clay layer in the backyard --carrying a red pitchfork is EXCITING. ---you can also stand some "developmental psych"----people don't give up either the FOOD or the LESSONS of the nursery---
bacon and eggs for breakfast and AVOID THE JEW DOCTOR WITH THE GIANT SYRINGE aks---a 'satan'

 

[shimon]

yes---Paul was a real person----with an agenda which he
ZEALOUSLY promoted. He reminds me of the Bengal
Tigers of Ceylon (uhm---make that Sri Lanka)---I will try
not to mention Oliver Cromwell or Martin Luther and
will delete Joseph Smith altogether. Judge Hawthorne
is an interesting character----but not part of the discussion

Paul or the concept of him was almagamated from different persons just like the character of Jesus was and all the stories myths and personas found in the New Testament .. The people who could question what is taught there were long dead when these stories myths and personas were long dead so who could question what was written and the Jews were long dispersed from their land and without power and Rome and her followers chased them all over the place not allowing them rest or a place to establish themselves or RETURN( Hashev) so they could rebuild what they had lost and counter the mistaken ideals found in that book…

 

[irosie91]

Paul or the concept of him was almagamated from different persons just like the character of Jesus was and all the stories myths and personas found in the New Testament .. The people who could question what is taught there were long dead when these stories myths and personas were long dead so who could question what was written and the Jews were long dispersed from their land and without power and Rome and her followers chased them all over the place not allowing them rest or a place to establish themselves or RETURN( Hashev) so they could rebuild what they had lost and counter the mistaken ideals found in that book…

I do not see a reason to DENY the existence of a "person"
Paul. Just read the idiocy he is said to have written.
Such drivel could not have been invented. Have you
ever interviewed a SCHIZOPHRENIC?

 

[shimon]

I do not see a reason to DENY the existence of a "person"
Paul. Just read the idiocy he is said to have written.
Such drivel could not have been invented. Have you
ever interviewed a SCHIZOPHRENIC?

No can’t say that I have or gone to a therapist ( the rapist rapes your mind) words hide meanings that are usually in your face and are far more powerful then people realize…When we are children if we are programmed into a way of thinking it usually chains us to those views for life and we can’t break free that is why the concepts as taught in the New Testament written by the persona Paul ( who supposedly composed the majority of the New Testament) are so hard to overcome… I liken it to a baby elephant that is chained to a post in the ground who tries and tries to break free but cannot because itis too small and powerless… However the baby elephant grows up to become a big strong animal and it is again chained to a similar post after it is all grown up… The elephant could now easily break free of that chain and post because it is now big and strong but it never tries to free itself because it remembers when it was small it could not break free that is how people are when they are programmed at a young age by words and silly beliefs as well..

 

[Meriweather]

No can’t say that I have or gone to a therapist ( the rapist rapes your mind) words hide meanings that are usually in your face and are far more powerful then people realize…When we are children if we are programmed into a way of thinking it usually chains us to those views for life and we can’t break free that is why the concepts as taught in the New Testament written by the persona Paul ( who supposedly composed the majority of the New Testament) are so hard to overcome… I liken it to a baby elephant that is chained to a post in the ground who tries and tries to break free but cannot because itis too small and powerless… However the baby elephant grows up to become a big strong animal and it is again chained to a similar post after it is all grown up… The elephant could now easily break free of that chain and post because it is now big and strong but it never tries to free itself because it remembers when it was small it could not break free that is how people are when they are programmed at a young age by words and silly beliefs as well..

Interesting analogy when it comes to Paul. The chain he was breaking was a people being chained to the Law, meaning the parts of the Law that do not pertain to morality. He was fiercely for the morality parts. to live a righteous life he proclaimed focusing on Jesus Christ and the saving power of God, not on the Law, because it is not the Law that saves. Paul, a Jew and a persecutor of Christians, met up with Jesus and was a changed man--dare I say an unchained man?

Seriously, I think Jews are too hard on Paul, while I'm also of the mind that some Christians put more weight on Paul's words than was his intent.

 

[irosie91]

Interesting analogy when it comes to Paul. The chain he was breaking was a people being chained to the Law, meaning the parts of the Law that do not pertain to morality. He was fiercely for the morality parts. to live a righteous life he proclaimed focusing on Jesus Christ and the saving power of God, not on the Law, because it is not the Law that saves. Paul, a Jew and a persecutor of Christians, met up with Jesus and was a changed man--dare I say an unchained man?

Seriously, I think Jews are too hard on Paul, while I'm also of the mind that some Christians put more weight on Paul's words than was his intent.

read it again ---paul was the son of Greek converts---
very Hellenistic in his outlook and obviously trying
to create a SYNCRESIS Hellenism/Judaism. I have
never heard a jewish scholar comment at all on PAUL.
Your "unchained" jellybean comment is insulting.
Your concept of MORALITY is interesting---it was
Constantine who UNCHAINED the "morality" that
created the Inquisition which was perpetuated by the UNCHAINED.people like SAINT ISABELLA and brought
it all to the NEW WORLD by people like her boyfriend, CORTEZ. Francis apologized a few years ago

 

[shimon]

Interesting analogy when it comes to Paul. The chain he was breaking was a people being chained to the Law, meaning the parts of the Law that do not pertain to morality. He was fiercely for the morality parts. to live a righteous life he proclaimed focusing on Jesus Christ and the saving power of God, not on the Law, because it is not the Law that saves. Paul, a Jew and a persecutor of Christians, met up with Jesus and was a changed man--dare I say an unchained man?

Seriously, I think Jews are too hard on Paul, while I'm also of the mind that some Christians put more weight on Paul's words than was his intent.

Congratulations you have just pointed out that Paul and by extension Jesus are false prophets we are taught and it is clear and explicit in the Torah that it is [God's] commandment, remaining forever without change, addition, or diminishment, as [Deuteronomy 13:1] states: "All these matters which I command to you, you shall be careful to perform. You may not add to it or diminish from it," and therefore by changing meaning and words in the Jewish scriptures and adding your books mostly supposedly written by Paul you are adding to it…[Deuteronomy 29:28] states: "What is revealed is for us and our children forever, to carry out all the words of this Torah." This teaches that we are commanded to fulfill all the Torah's directives forever. One can read further in Deutoronomy to find clarification esp in Deutoronomy 30 etc etc… The elephant in the room should be able to break its chains easily now if they are thinking straight but it is not the Jews but the Christian’s who have been taught so mistakenly by such false prophets and deceivers…

 

[irosie91]

Congratulations you have just pointed out that Paul and by extension Jesus are false prophets we are taught and it is clear and explicit in the Torah that it is [God's] commandment, remaining forever without change, addition, or diminishment, as [Deuteronomy 13:1] states: "All these matters which I command to you, you shall be careful to perform. You may not add to it or diminish from it," and therefore by changing meaning and words in the Jewish scriptures and adding your books mostly supposedly written by Paul you are adding to it…[Deuteronomy 29:28] states: "What is revealed is for us and our children forever, to carry out all the words of this Torah." This teaches that we are commanded to fulfill all the Torah's directives forever. One can read further in Deutoronomy to find clarification esp in Deutoronomy 30 etc etc… The elephant in the room should be able to break its chains easily now if they are thinking straight but it is not the Jews but the Christian’s who have been taught so mistakenly by such false prophets and deceivers…

IMVO (in my vaunted opinion) Paul created a kind of
ersatz judaism for gentiles. He predated Freud in
developmental neurology (today called PSYCHIATRY)

 

[Meriweather]

read it again ---paul was the son of Greek converts---
very Hellenistic in his outlook and obviously trying
to create a SYNCRESIS Hellenism/Judaism. I have
never heard a jewish scholar comment at all on PAUL.
Your "unchained" jellybean comment is insulting.
Your concept of MORALITY is interesting---it was
Constantine who UNCHAINED the "morality" that
created the Inquisition which was perpetuated by the UNCHAINED.people like SAINT ISABELLA and brought
it all to the NEW WORLD by people like her boyfriend, CORTEZ. Francis apologized a few years ago

This was not Paul's intent, let alone his purpose. I was not the person who brought up the concept of being chained. I merely pointed out how it could be seen from Paul's perspective and his purpose. Forget about Constantine. He is dragged in as a red herring to switch focus from what was occurring on how many were beginning to perceive God. Inquisitions--except for the Spanish Inquisition run by a truly evil person--were meant to help society as a whole when both Church and State were seen as united rulers and united in their power over the people. But that's another discussion.

 

[irosie91]

This was not Paul's intent, let alone his purpose. I was not the person who brought up the concept of being chained. I merely pointed out how it could be seen from Paul's perspective and his purpose. Forget about Constantine. He is dragged in as a red herring to switch focus from what was occurring on how many were beginning to perceive God. Inquisitions--except for the Spanish Inquisition run by a truly evil person--were meant to help society as a whole when both Church and State were seen as united rulers and united in their power over the people. But that's another discussion.

I did not BLAME Paul for anything. Hellenism was a biggie amongst jews----ESPECIALLY GREEK CONVERTS .
Alexandria was almost as jewish as was BAGHDAD. As to
Jesus----no evidence there that he was a HELLENIST----
Constantine DID IT TO HIM posthumously. 'inquisitions'
historically, were massively GENOCIDAL

 

[Meriweather]

Congratulations you have just pointed out that Paul and by extension Jesus are false prophets we are taught and it is clear and explicit in the Torah that it is [God's] commandment, remaining forever without change, addition, or diminishment, as [Deuteronomy 13:1] states: "All these matters which I command to you, you shall be careful to perform. You may not add to it or diminish from it," and therefore by changing meaning and words in the Jewish scriptures and adding your books mostly supposedly written by Paul you are adding to it…[Deuteronomy 29:28] states: "What is revealed is for us and our children forever, to carry out all the words of this Torah." This teaches that we are commanded to fulfill all the Torah's directives forever. One can read further in Deutoronomy to find clarification esp in Deutoronomy 30 etc etc… The elephant in the room should be able to break its chains easily now if they are thinking straight but it is not the Jews but the Christian’s who have been taught so mistakenly by such false prophets and deceivers…

You may want to rethink your congratulations since I have done nothing of the sort. Think of where God started with humanity, and as He taught us, change began. Look at Laws that changed over time in the Old Testament with an added note that God permitted it (Judges to King a prime example of this). Where to worship, what sacrifices and how they were to be offered, Laws about slaves/indentured servants. As life changed, so did society and the changes they asked of God (sometimes) and trying out other changes without first asking.

God is the same yesterday, today, and always, we people are not. People grow, people learn, and God leads us on to the next lessons/steps. Some people welcome these next steps, some fight against them, but God's plan will prevail as He does not change, especially in that regard.

What you probably also know: When a book in the Bible says no change allowed, it is meant for changes/alterations in that particular book. Don't add or delete the words that were written in that Book. As we already noted, in future books there were changes in Judaism, but certainly Deuteronomy stood as originally written.

Jesus and Paul are neither false prophets nor deceivers--quite the opposite as both are after the truth of God, not the changes humanity forged down through the ages (even in the Old Testament) as they adapted to changes in the world. Jesus, in particular, and Paul perhaps to a lesser, were pointing out the changes in the Original Law God gave (the Ten Commandments) and wanted the focus to go back to these Laws and most specifically to the First: Eyes on God.

 

[irosie91]

You may want to rethink your congratulations since I have done nothing of the sort. Think of where God started with humanity, and as He taught us, change began. Look at Laws that changed over time in the Old Testament with an added note that God permitted it (Judges to King a prime example of this). Where to worship, what sacrifices and how they were to be offered, Laws about slaves/indentured servants. As life changed, so did society and the changes they asked of God (sometimes) and trying out other changes without first asking.

God is the same yesterday, today, and always, we people are not. People grow, people learn, and God leads us on to the next lessons/steps. Some people welcome these next steps, some fight against them, but God's plan will prevail as He does not change, especially in that regard.

What you probably also know: When a book in the Bible says no change allowed, it is meant for changes/alterations in that particular book. Don't add or delete the words that were written in that Book. As we already noted, in future books there were changes in Judaism, but certainly Deuteronomy stood as originally written.

Jesus and Paul are neither false prophets nor deceivers--quite the opposite as both are after the truth of God, not the changes humanity forged down through the ages (even in the Old Testament) as they adapted to changes in the world. Jesus, in particular, and Paul perhaps to a lesser, were pointing out the changes in the Original Law God gave (the Ten Commandments) and wanted the focus to go back to these Laws and most specifically to the First: Eyes on God.

HUH??? what "changes"?