Zone1 Why can't there be a serious intellectual discusion about Jesus' gender and sexuality?

[ding]

Spirit is prominent in many "other" religions-----eg--hinduism---"belief" being of lesser importance. The native american
religions conferred "spirit" even on inanimate 'things'

Yes and it isn't surprising to me that they do.

 

[Meriweather]

Also if you had it your way you'd be describing Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12-14

Again, the entire post a presentation of mishmash and lack of research. I am highlighting the above because not once have I ever used Isaiah 14:12-14 to describe Lucifer. That's because I do the research, study the language, study the culture and the history of that time.

I feel no need to find stories of people with identical names, mix them together with stories occurring in another time and present an entirely different story as "truth". Anyway, I see what you are doing, and due to the clear lack of research, it doesn't interest me.

What does interest me: Why you fear Jesus so much you feel he must be destroyed. Have you read his teachings? Have you read his parables, doing the research that can match them up with already popular Jewish parables being told in his own time?

 

[ThisIsMe]

Once again, but using your own point:
Constantine and known liar forger Eusebius compile the texts of the NT which are not written by any of the dead apostles attributed to them, & which is "not the Bible".

Where do you get that they were not written by the apostles? Where do you derive that information?

 

[HaShev]

Where do you get that they were not written by the apostles? Where do you derive that information?

Many church elect admit this, it has become common knowledge that even this recent pope admitted.
Throughout the RCC they mention the texts and traditions, these mysteries, they borrowed from Babylon.
Church elect have admited they borrowed from them as you know.
The Development of the Christian Religion Cardinal Newman p.359
but he also had quoted about the books not written by those attributed to.
Others:
Religion writer and former Anglican priest Tom Harpur admits he's sticking his neck out for proffering that someone named Jesus never walked this Earth

Dr. I. Hooykaas, Nineteenth--Century Reverend:
Not one of these five books (four Gospels and Acts) [was] really written by the person whose name it bears, and they are all of more recent date than the heading would lead us to suppose.
9. Drs. H. Oort, I. Hooykaas, and A. Kuneh, The Bible for Learners, trans. Philip A. Wieksteed (Boston, 1878), vol. 3, p. 24.

St. Faustus, Fifth--Century French Bishop:
Many things have been inserted by our ancestors in the speeches of our Lord which, though put forth under his name, agree not with his faith; especially since-as already it has been often proved-these things were written not by Christ, nor [by] his apostles, but a long while after their assumption, by I know not what sort of half Jews, not even agreeing with themselves, who made up their tale out of reports and opinions merely, and yet, fathering the whole upon the names of the apostles of the Lord or on those who were supposed to follow the apostles, they maliciously pretended that they had written their lies and conceits according to them.10
It is certain that the New Testament was not written by Christ himself, nor by his apostles, but a long while after them, by some unknown persons, who, lest they should not be credited when they wrote of affairs they were little acquainted with, affixed to their works the names of the apostles, or of such as were supposed to have been their companions, asserting that what they had written themselves was written according to these persons to whom they ascribed it.11

To strengthen belief in the resurrection of Jesus, St. Irenaeus invented many stories of others being raised from the dead.12
As Jeremiah Jones, an eighteenth--century reverend, comments:
Such pious frauds were very common among Christians even in the first three centuries; and a forgery of this nature, with the view above mentioned, seems natural and probable.13
10. Taylor, Diegesis, p. 66. 11. Ibid., p. 114. 12. Doane, p. 231. 13. Ibid.

"Should one continue to base one's life on a system of belief that--for all its occasional wisdom and frequent beauty--is demonstrably untrue?"-- Charles Templeton, former right-hand man to Billy Graham in Farewell to God

Some of the "great" church fathers, such as Eusebius, were determined by their own peers to be unbelievable liars who regularly wrote their own fictions of what "the Lord" said, and did,during "his" alleged sojourn upon the earth.
In fact, Pope Leo X, privy to the truth because of his high rank, made this curious declaration, "What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!"
Dr. Herbert Marsh, Nineteenth--Century English Bishop:
It is a certain fact that several readings in our common printed text are nothing more than alterations made by Origen, whose authority was so great in the Christian Church (A.D. 230) that emendations which he proposed, though, as he himself acknowledged, they were supported by the evidence of no manuscript, were very generally received.*
*Michaelis, Introduction to the New Testament, ed. Dr. Herbert Marsh (London, 1828), vol. 2, p. 368.

Johann Lorenz Von Mosheim, Eighteenth--Century Ecclesiastical Historian:
Not long after Christ's ascension into heaven, several histories of his life and doctrines, full of pious frauds and fabulous wonders, were composed by persons whose intentions perhaps were not bad, but whose writings discovered the greatest superstition and ignorance. Nor was this all; productions appeared which were imposed upon the world by fraudulent men, [such] as the writings of the holy apostles.
* Von Mosheim, Ecclesiastical History (London, 1810), vol. 1, p. 109.

St. Gregory, Fourth--Century Bishop of Nazianzus, writing to St.Jerome:
A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire. Our forefathers and doctors have often said not what they thought, but what circumstances and necessity dictated.
7. C. F. Volney, The Ruins (Boston, 1872), p. 177.

Charles Chiniquy, a man who was 50 years in the Roman Church and 25 years a Roman priest said: "It was certainly our desire, as well as our interest, to believe them (the dogmas, precepts and practices of Rome). But how our faith was shaken, and how we felt troubled when Livy, Tacitus, Cicero, Virgil, Homer, etc., gave us evidence that the greater part of these things had their root and origin in paganism." Of course he meant by this, mystery Babylon.
He then went on to give an illustration and told how they had been told to trust in the scapulars (the sleeveless outer garment of a priest or monk), medals, holy water, etc., because they would keep them safe and aid in battling the temptations of life. But, how again their faith was shaken when in reading the Greek and Latin historians, they found the same things involved with the worship of Jupiter, Minerva, Diana and Venus (the mother-child cult).

Dr. Conyers Middleton, Eighteenth Century:
There never was any period of time in all ecclesiastical history in which so many rank heresies were publicly professed nor in which so many spurious books were forged and published by the Christians, under the names of Christ, and the apostles, and the apostolic writers, as in those primitive ages. Several of these forged books are frequently cited, and applied [in] defense of Christianity, by the most eminent fathers of the same ages, as true and genuine pieces.
8. Middleton, vol. 1, p. 59.

 

[HaShev]

Again, the entire post a presentation of mishmash and lack of research. I am highlighting the above because not once have I ever used Isaiah 14:12-14 to describe Lucifer. That's because I do the research, study the language, study the culture and the history of that time.

I feel no need to find stories of people with identical names, mix them together with stories occurring in another time and present an entirely different story as "truth". Anyway, I see what you are doing, and due to the clear lack of research, it doesn't interest me.

What does interest me: Why you fear Jesus so much you feel he must be destroyed. Have you read his teachings? Have you read his parables, doing the research that can match them up with already popular Jewish parables being told in his own time?

umm but your faith did via passing stories down the line. REMEMBER THEY WERE NOT IN THE COMMUNICATIONS ERA where we even today mix up stories of people (like celebs) with similar name fame or titles. Imagine how bad it was back then to keep the figures from meshing. Have you ever played the passing the story down the line game?
If not, then you just don't get this simple fact of life.

 

[Meriweather]

Have you ever played the passing the story down the line game?

Yes, three times with teenagers. All three times the story remained the same. What was interesting, the first time I introduced the game, I asked the teens if they had ever heard or played it. Three laughed, saying indeed they had, and how much fun it had been to deliberately mess up the story. I suggested we play and see how close we can stay to the original. They enthusiastically agreed, and the story remained the same.

Funny you mention this. Your posts are like when the game is played with people deliberately trying changing things around.

RE: Apostles writing the Gospels. It was thought for a long time that Matthew and John were written by the Apostles. It turns out it's true the Gospel of John was written by the Apostle John, while the Gospel of Matthew was not written by the Apostle but someone else. As my grandmother, my mother, and I have all been well aware of this, it is not new knowledge--it's been known for generations. Naturally, no one ever considered Mark and Luke to be Apostles. Mark is thought to have been a disciple of the Apostle, Peter; Luke is known to have been a colleague and fellow-traveler of Paul.

 

[HaShev]

Yes, three times with teenagers. All three times the story remained the same. What was interesting, the first time I introduced the game, I asked the teens if they had ever heard or played it. Three laughed, saying indeed they had, and how much fun it had been to deliberately mess up the story. I suggested we play and see how close we can stay to the original. They enthusiastically agreed, and the story remained the same.

Funny you mention this. Your posts are like when the game is played with people deliberately trying changing things around.

RE: Apostles writing the Gospels. It was thought for a long time that Matthew and John were written by the Apostles. It turns out it's true the Gospel of John was written by the Apostle John, while the Gospel of Matthew was not written by the Apostle but someone else. As my grandmother, my mother, and I have all been well aware of this, it is not new knowledge--it's been known for generations. Naturally, no one ever considered Mark and Luke to be Apostles. Mark is thought to have been a disciple of the Apostle, Peter; Luke is known to have been a colleague and fellow-traveler of Paul.

Paul is also a combined character.
Look for him in Acts 13 Saul meets up with one named Sergius Paulus called Paul who had a maggis friend with him called Bar(son)Jesus .
Apollonias of Tyana (called Pol) also from Tarsus is the one the climbing out the window fleeing to Syria story comes from and he is said to have had extensive library of books from many cultures and beliefs, and is said to maybe have written the 3/4 of the texts which became attributed to Paul writting 3/4 of the NT.
There's a little known rule of that time period, you do not listen to leaders & teachers who were political prisoners which Saul was one.

 

[ding]

Paul is also a combined character.

Exodus didn't happen as described, God didn't really bring about a great flood to wipe out humanity and the Tower of Babel wasn't about God scattering men because of their progress in building a tower.

But Paul was a real person just like Moses was a real person.

But you keep on evangelizing against the Christian faith because that's a failed behavior which leads to predictable surprises.

 

[Donald H]

Exodus didn't happen as described, God didn't really bring about a great flood to wipe out humanity and the Tower of Babel wasn't about God scattering men because of their progress in building a tower.

Well done finally!

But Paul was a real person just like Moses was a real person.

Not very likely, now that both sides of the debate contend that Exodus is baloney.

But you keep on evangelizing against the Christian faith because that's a failed behavior which leads to predictable surprises.

You're just finished admitting that the bible is a fake. I would just give you Paul to stifle you before you can dream up more baloney!

 

[ding]

Well done finally!

Not very likely, now that both sides of the debate contend that Exodus is baloney.

You're just finished admitting that the bible is a fake. I would just give you Paul to stifle you before you can dream up more baloney!

Not quite. There's still the message of each account to contend with. That you believe embellishment negates that message is the sign of an intellectually inferior human being.

 

[Donald H]

Not quite. There's still the message of each account to contend with. That you believe embellishment negates that message is the sign of an intellectually inferior human being.

You still haven't claimed that anything in the bibles is true?

But there's probably 5 or 6 more posts coming out of you so maybe you'll get around to the Ark and the big fish stories?

 

[Donald H]

Ding says:

Exodus didn't happen as described, God didn't really bring about a great flood to wipe out humanity

There goes 'creation'!

At least for Catholics! Other Christians may regard that as backsliding?

 

[ding]

You still haven't claimed that anything in the bibles is true?

But there's probably 5 or 6 more posts coming out of you so maybe you'll get around to the Ark and the big fish stories?

Sure I did. Go back to our bull ring discussion you ran away from.

 

[ding]

Ding says:

There goes 'creation'!

At least for Catholics! Other Christians may regard that as backsliding?

What you intend for evil, God is using for good.

 

[Donald H]

What you intend for evil, God is using for good.

Ding says:

Exodus didn't happen as described, God didn't really bring about a great flood to wipe out humanity.......

If the god got it wrong, or lied about the big flood, then what's Ding's latest version?

 

[ding]

If the god got it wrong, or lied about the big flood, then what's Ding's latest version?

It's because you don't understand what these accounts are that you make stupid statements like this.

 

[Donald H]

It's because you don't understand what these accounts are that you make stupid statements like this.

If you're right about the god lying on the big flood and Genesis, then what's your revised version.

I think it was his nightmare the night after his bath tub overflowed.
Would that be an embellishment? Was it more like His teacup spilled?

 

[Donald H]

I'm leaving this discussion. It's not appropriate for the religion section. I'll ask a moderator to close it now.

 

[HaShev]

You still haven't claimed that anything in the bibles is true?

But there's probably 5 or 6 more posts coming out of you so maybe you'll get around to the Ark and the big fish stories?

In the Jonah story, you need to first understand the use of Biblical words in that era and particular context in order to better interpret the Jonah story.

In the Biblical era the Dead Sea Scrolls showed us what "Day" meant in certain context.
The Ages of The World Scroll
4Q180-181 reveals Days=Ages

So 3 days=3ages

So 3 day(ages) story of Jonah and the Whale has to be rediscovered in meaning, as the riddle where Jonah (Said to represent Israel) spends 3days(ages) in the belly of the whale (Rome swallowed Israel).

Remember:in ancient slang Rome is called Seas and it's Army called Ships, so they would not know they were being spoken of during revolts.

Slang used in the Jonah story refer to the Ship surrounding him (Roman army) in the Sea(Rome).

So we did see it took 3 ages before Jonah (Israel) came out of this Whale Rome/Europe to be free again as Israel returned/restored/placed back(HaShev) exactly 3 ages(days) as prophesied in the Jonah story​

.

 

[daveman]

that's not a refutation nor viable answer to your mistake nor deflection, that's an ad hominem reply. When they warned everyone would be deceived why would you in the majority think this would not be you?=answer: human ego- rules for theee but not for me.....

Yeah, you go with that. Meanwhile, Satan has you hooked through the bag.