Zone1 What rituals are necessary for salvation?

[markef]

As Moshiach ben David I believe that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus, [Messiah the Passover Lamb], can take anybody that he wants into the highest levels of paradise or heaven no matter what ritual that person has been able to do, [or has not been able to do]. The thief on the cross, [ or massive dead fig tree beside him], was unable to perform baptism or any other ritual. The literal blood of Jesus very likely was blown by the wind onto him though.

God cannot forgive sins of sinners who do not put their faith in the shed blood of the Scrificial Lamb Jesus Christ.

 

[ding]

God eating is a very primitive concept. Its also not Kosher

Theophagy—the consumption of a god—originates from ancient ritual practices designed to internalize divine power, with roots in Greco-Roman, Egyptian, and other pagan traditions where sacrificial meals often involved eating the flesh of a god or symbolic substitutes.
Key Aspects of the Origin of God Eating:

• Ancient Roots and Theophagy: The term "theophagy" (god eating) describes the ritual consumption of a deity to absorb divine attributes. This was common in Greek rites, such as those for Dionysius, where a sacrificed animal represented the deity.
• Mythological Origins: Mythologically, early accounts like Hesiod’s Theogony (eighth century B.C.E.) feature Cronus swallowing his children to prevent them from seizing power.
• Ritual and Symbolic Meaning: In many traditions, this practice represents the fusion of sacrifice and communion, where eating the sacrificed deity or offering strengthens the connection between the human and divine.
• Eucharistic Evolution: While sometimes compared to ancient cannibalistic practices, the Christian Eucharist evolved within this context, with scholars pointing to its roots in both Jewish traditions and the wider Greco-Roman religious landscape, where eating the body/blood of a god was a practiced concept.

The way I see it is that God allowed himself to be convicted of creating an unfair world even when it was men who made the world unfair so that when people complained about the unfair world he created he would tell them he agreed and has already paid his debt. I think having to eat his flesh and drink his blood is the least we can do as everyone of us should be ashamed.

 

[ding]

God eating is a very primitive concept. Its also not Kosher

Theophagy—the consumption of a god—originates from ancient ritual practices designed to internalize divine power, with roots in Greco-Roman, Egyptian, and other pagan traditions where sacrificial meals often involved eating the flesh of a god or symbolic substitutes.
Key Aspects of the Origin of God Eating:

• Ancient Roots and Theophagy: The term "theophagy" (god eating) describes the ritual consumption of a deity to absorb divine attributes. This was common in Greek rites, such as those for Dionysius, where a sacrificed animal represented the deity.
• Mythological Origins: Mythologically, early accounts like Hesiod’s Theogony (eighth century B.C.E.) feature Cronus swallowing his children to prevent them from seizing power.
• Ritual and Symbolic Meaning: In many traditions, this practice represents the fusion of sacrifice and communion, where eating the sacrificed deity or offering strengthens the connection between the human and divine.
• Eucharistic Evolution: While sometimes compared to ancient cannibalistic practices, the Christian Eucharist evolved within this context, with scholars pointing to its roots in both Jewish traditions and the wider Greco-Roman religious landscape, where eating the body/blood of a god was a practiced concept.

You aren't the first person to be shocked by Jesus' command to eat his flesh and drink his blood. He lost a lot of disciples over that command.

1. Jesus said he was the bread of life and whoever ate this bread would have eternal life. John 6:48-51
2. The Jews quarreled and said how can this man give us his flesh to eat. John 6:52
3. So rather than softening his stance he doubled down and said very clearly, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. John 6:53
4. Afterwards his disciples said, this is hard to take. John 6:60
5. Jesus asked them, does this shock you. John 6:61
6. Then Jesus explained that it is the spirit that gives life. The flesh is of no avail. John 6:62-63
7. But they didn't believe in Jesus and they couldn't accept what he was saying because it shocked them like it is shocking you. As a result of this, many [of] his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him. John 6:64-65

He let disciples walk away rather than to soften his stance and make it symbolic. He was given an opportunity to soften it and instead he reinforced what he said by saying the flesh is of no avail.

 

[The Irish Ram]

The Greek didn't use commas, so the placing of the comma after truth was arbitrary by the translators. It should be placed after today, thus,

"I tell you the truth today (at this time, now), you will be with me in paradise."

Did not use commas
The ancient Greeks did not use commas in the same way as modern punctuation. They utilized punctuation marks such as the colon ) and the Greek question mark (, which resemble modern punctuation but serve different functions. The Greek writing style, known as scriptio continua, was continuous without spaces or punctuation, relying on context and rhythm for clarity. While modern punctuation has evolved, the ancient Greeks' methods of reading and writing were distinct from contemporary practices.

greek-language.com+4

You also have to ask, just where did Jesus go on that day that he would have taken the thief with him, to the tomb? That's where Jesus went on that day.

But on that day, we know that Jesus went to Abraham's Bosom, and proclaimed to the fallen angels on the other side that He was victorious over them.
His body went to the tomb, He, risen from the clay body, had a destination for the following 3 days. He went to gather those waiting for Him in Abraham's Bosom, and return to earth with them according to Matthew:

Matthew 27:51-53 “At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.”
Fallen asleep means died. Those souls who Christ brought back with Him were reunited with their renewed, but same bodies they left behind.

Jesus didn't do any of that from the tomb. He went somewhere. He continued to live as soon as He shed the clay exterior that encased His Spirit.

1 Peter 3:19 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit, in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago.....

 

[Woodznutz]

But on that day, we know that Jesus went to Abraham's Bosom, and proclaimed to the fallen angels on the other side that He was victorious over them.
His body went to the tomb, He, risen from the clay body, had a destination for the following 3 days. He went to gather those waiting for Him in Abraham's Bosom, and return to earth with them according to Matthew. Jesus did none of that from the tomb. He continued to live as soon as He shed the clay exterior that encased His Spirit.

1 Peter 3:19 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit, in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago.....

I wouldn't consider the place where the imprisoned spirits were to be paradise.

 

[Hafar1014]

You aren't the first person to be shocked by Jesus' command to eat his flesh and drink his blood. He lost a lot of disciples over that command.

1. Jesus said he was the bread of life and whoever ate this bread would have eternal life. John 6:48-51
2. The Jews quarreled and said how can this man give us his flesh to eat. John 6:52
3. So rather than softening his stance he doubled down and said very clearly, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. John 6:53
4. Afterwards his disciples said, this is hard to take. John 6:60
5. Jesus asked them, does this shock you. John 6:61
6. Then Jesus explained that it is the spirit that gives life. The flesh is of no avail. John 6:62-63
7. But they didn't believe in Jesus and they couldn't accept what he was saying because it shocked them like it is shocking you. As a result of this, many [of] his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him. John 6:64-65

He let disciples walk away rather than to soften his stance and make it symbolic. He was given an opportunity to soften it and instead he reinforced what he said by saying the flesh is of no avail.

Im not shocked at all

 

[Hafar1014]

The way I see it is that God allowed himself to be convicted of creating an unfair world even when it was men who made the world unfair so that when people complained about the unfair world he created he would tell them he agreed and has already paid his debt. I think having to eat his flesh and drink his blood is the least we can do as everyone of us should be ashamed.

Life is neither fair or unfair. Humans create that. For you people its all about sin and suffering for the sake of suffering. Thats a mental disorder

 

[The Irish Ram]

I wouldn't consider the place where the imprisoned spirits were to be paradise.

It wasn't. Even though in a broader sense, the people in Abraham's Bosom were also detained until Christ came for them. There are 2 places described. They were separated by a deep chasm. One side comfort, one side agony. The souls in Abraham's Bosom were those who belong to God, but could not go to Him until their sins were paid for by Christ. As soon as Christ did that, He went to retrieve them. Those on the other side of the chasm will remain there until the White Thrown Judgment.

Luke 16: 25-26 But Abraham answered, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things. But now he is comforted here, while you are in agony. And besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that even those who wish cannot cross from here to you, nor can anyone cross from there to us.’

 

[Carl in Michigan]

It wasn't. Even though in a broader sense, the people in Abraham's Bosom were also detained until Christ came for them. There are 2 places described. They were separated by a deep chasm. One side comfort, one side agony. The souls in Abraham's Bosom were those who belong to God, but could not go to Him until their sins were paid for by Christ. As soon as Christ did that, He went to retrieve them. Those on the other side of the chasm will remain there until the White Thrown Judgment.

Luke 16: 25-26 But Abraham answered, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things. But now he is comforted here, while you are in agony. And besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that even those who wish cannot cross from here to you, nor can anyone cross from there to us.’

I'm trying to understand your belief. I think I do, but I don't agree at all.

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten

All the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come

 

[Hafar1014]

I'm trying to understand your belief. I think I do, but I don't agree at all.

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten

All the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come

False there is an after life and we dont end when the body dies. There is soul which is the energy that holds or emotions memories and personality. We are never forgotten

 

[The Irish Ram]

Exactly!

What happened on that day, right Jesus said those words to the thief, is that he died and was entombed. He didn't ascend until sometime after he was raised.

"Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended..."

Later, John wrote, "No one has ascended.." except Jesus.

3 days after Christ died, He showed back up with people that had also died. Matthew called them saints. And all of them stayed here for 40 days. So where did those people come from, and since we know that Christ had not yet ascended to His father in Heaven, what and where was this Paradise Jesus went to? And Jesus told the thief that he would be with Him, not some day but today. Even if it reads, "I tell you today, that you will be with me in Paradise", Jesus only went to Paradise once, for 3 days, emptied it and closed it behind Him. There was only one opportunity for the thief to be in Paradise with Jesus and that was for the 3 days following their deaths.

 

[Hafar1014]

3 days after Christ died, He showed back up with people that had also died. Matthew called them saints. And all of them stayed here for 40 days. So where did those people come from, and since we know that Christ had not yet ascended to His father in Heaven, what and where was this Paradise Jesus went to? And Jesus told the thief that he would be with Him, not some day but today. Even if it reads, "I tell you today, that you will be with me in Paradise", Jesus only went to Paradise once, for 3 days, emptied it and closed it behind Him. There was only one opportunity for the thief to be in Paradise with Jesus and that was for the 3 days following their deaths.

What a pile of donkey dust

 

[The Irish Ram]

I'm trying to understand your belief. I think I do, but I don't agree at all.

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten

All the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come

Do you believe any of the scripture pertaining to the rich man and the beggar"?
Start with this:
“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.
Now, read the very next sentence:
In Hades, where he [rich man] was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus [the dead beggar ] by his side.

Both died. If scripture is correct, neither slept. And, the angels took the beggar to Abraham's side, not Abraham's tomb, because Abraham wasn't sleeping either.
How do you meld that whole chapter with believing that we all just nap until something wakes us up?

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Do you believe any of the scripture pertaining to the rich man and the beggar"?
Start with this:
“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.
Now, read the very next sentence:
In Hades, where he [rich man] was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus [the dead beggar ] by his side.

Both died. If scripture is correct, neither slept. And, the angels took the beggar to Abraham's side, not Abraham's tomb, because Abraham wasn't sleeping either.
How do you meld that whole chapter with believing that we all just nap until something wakes us up?

I believe it is a metaphor.
I don't believe in an immortal soul.
I believe our time is very limited
I believe if you received the GIFT of eternal life you have a future
I believe the wicked will NOT receive the GIFT of eternal life an they will become ashes

I believe CHRIST can call death "sleep" because He will wake us up (bring us back from death). Humans have no power over death.
I believe there is a lesson, and hope, every night when I close my eyes. I consider it a PROMISE

 

[jacksonlamb]

None. If there is a good, he or she is, I believe good, and will not require a set of requirements.

This is tough enough.

 

[The Irish Ram]

I believe it is a metaphor.
I don't believe in an immortal soul.
I believe our time is very limited
I believe if you received the GIFT of eternal life you have a future
I believe the wicked will NOT receive the GIFT of eternal life an they will become ashes

I believe CHRIST can call death "sleep" because He will wake us up (bring us back from death). Humans have no power over death.
I believe there is a lesson, and hope, every night when I close my eyes. I consider it a PROMISE

In that case, what is the metaphor implying? Doesn't it imply that we are immortal? Life after death?
Let me understand your position. Do you believe that we merely cease to exist unless Jesus imparts eternity onto our souls? Otherwise, what? Just sleep? And then Christ is going to wake the good ones up? Here or in Heaven? Because we have a BEMA judgment, a coronation to attend, and marriage and a marriage supper, that all takes place in Heaven. When?
Are we raptured to Heaven after we are awakened? And how wicked do you have to be not to be given eternity? God forgives us for our sins, if we repent, except blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Would it surprise you to know that there are murderers that will be given eternity? That you and King David might share the same blessings?

I just love you Carl, and I believe that you are going to be pleasantly surprised when your last breath here is your first breath with our Father and our Savior in Heaven. I trust Paul when he said absent from the body is present with the Lord.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

In that case, what is the metaphor implying? Doesn't it imply that we are immortal? Life after death?
Let me understand your position. Do you believe that we merely cease to exist unless Jesus imparts eternity onto our souls? Otherwise, what? Just sleep? And then Christ is going to wake the good ones up? Here or in Heaven? Because we have a BEMA judgment, a coronation to attend, and marriage and a marriage supper, that all takes place in Heaven. When?
Are we raptured to Heaven after we are awakened? And how wicked do you have to be not to be given eternity? God forgives us for our sins, if we repent, except blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Would it surprise you to know that there are murderers that will be given eternity? That you and King David might share the same blessings?

I just love you Carl, and I believe that you are going to be pleasantly surprised when your last breath here is your first breath with our Father and our Savior in Heaven. I trust Paul when he said absent from the body is present with the Lord.

I appreciate that, and am glad we can disagree about the details without being disagreeable.

Yes. At death we cease to exist until the resurrection of the dead -- the Church first then after the Thousand Year reign of Christ and the saints, IN JERUSALEM not heaven, the rest of humanity will be given the chance to CHOOSE.

DEATH is DEATH. Life is a GIFT. If you don't have the Spirit of Christ (the Holy Spirit), you are like an unfertilized egg. You will not receive the GIFT of eternal life. We are all in God's Hands, and we will all be given that opportunity, but not all at the same time. The Church first.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Are we raptured to Heaven after we are awakened? And how wicked do you ghave to be not to be given eternity?

We are called up into the cloud to meet Christ as He and the angels descend. We land on the Mount of Olives and take Jerusalem

You have to have the Holy Spirit residing with your spirit to receive Eternal Life. Think of yourself as an embryo right now. Birth hasn't happened yet. Birth occurs the instant you are converted from a flesh and blood being to SPIRIT. That happens at His Return

I believe we'll all know the details in a few short years so I don't fret about Christians disagreeing about the details. What matters is accepting His gift in faith and waiting for the Promise. He won't fail us

 

[ding]

Im not shocked at all

Most bigots aren't shocked by much. If they were they wouldn't be bigots.

 

[ding]

Life is neither fair or unfair. Humans create that. For you people its all about sin and suffering for the sake of suffering. Thats a mental disorder

Your bigotry is a form of hatred and hatred is irrational. You shouldn't be throwing stones when you live in a glass house.