Were the Confederates traitors

Were the Confederates traitors?

  • yes

    Votes: 12 28.6%
  • no

    Votes: 24 57.1%
  • other

    Votes: 6 14.3%

  • Total voters
    42
When I first started this thread, I had no intention of discussing slavery—or even the Civil War, for that matter. My original aim was to explore the exceptionalism of our system.

In most systems around the world—most governments, most nations—what determines right and wrong is the barrel of a gun. But here, as I see it, we're different. We're supposed to be different. We're governed by principles, and one of those principles is that the people are sovereign. Power—the right to rule—comes from the people.

A sovereign entity, such as a state, cannot commit treason, just as a king cannot commit treason. Treason is an offense against the sovereign. And by definition, a sovereign has no peers—no one at or above their level. So if the people are sovereign, there is no one for them to commit treason against.

As the thread progressed, it seems to me that the question of whether America is exceptional breaks down along political lines. I might be wrong, but from my perspective, the right tends to see America as exceptional, while the left does not. I've even heard in past threads some on the left refer to America as "stolen land."

That raises an interesting point. If America is stolen land, how can one ethically participate in its economy? Wouldn’t that make you the recipient of illegal gains? When the police catch someone with stolen property, that person doesn’t get to keep it—it’s confiscated and returned to the rightful owner.

So if you truly believe America is stolen land, then staying here and participating in the economy is immoral. Your house, your home—they are stolen property. You cannot possess them, because the person who sold them to you had no right to do so. They belong to the rightful owners—in this case, Native Americans. Therefore, you should return them.

You cannot even earn a paycheck, because your employer doesn’t own the business he operates. He has no right to profit from stolen land, and no right to pay you to help him do so. If you believe America is stolen land, then logically, you should leave.

How could you label the subject 'Were the Confederates Traitors' and not expect a discussion on the War Between The States and slavery?

As far as America being 'stolen land', that is incorrect. It was not stolen, it was conquered.

Just like those early Europeans who came to this country are often called immigrants. But they were not immigrants, they were pioneers. They didn't come over under any immigration policy by the Indians. They simply came over to find a new place to live and had to defeat the Indians to do so.

Quantrill
 
I bring up slavery as a reason to condemn the Confederacy

You are lying
Our Constitution does not guarantee a right to own slaves

Article 4, Sec. 2, Clause 3 guarantees a right to own slaves in 1861. Do you agree?

See also the 3/5's Clause, Aritcle I Sec. 2, Clause 3, and the Importation Clause, Article I, Sec. 9, Clause 1.

Quantrill
 
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That the American Civil War was, indeed, so 'civil' is exceptional in history. That the rebellious sections of the country and all those who participated were so rapidly forgiven is not only exceptional, it is unique. As in any war, there were horrors and crimes, of course. Overall, we have to say that this huge sacrifice made necessary, primarily, by slavery did save the nation and the Republic. Further, it could be said that the entire world benefitted.
 
That the American Civil War was, indeed, so 'civil' is exceptional in history. That the rebellious sections of the country and all those who participated were so rapidly forgiven is not only exceptional, it is unique. As in any war, there were horrors and crimes, of course. Overall, we have to say that this huge sacrifice made necessary, primarily, by slavery did save the nation and the Republic. Further, it could be said that the entire world benefitted.

We differ I'm sure on who the 'rebellious section' was.

You say 'rapidly forgiven'. How so? And why was forgiveness necessary?

Quantrill
 
....

I can always tell when I own your ass

You respond with petty, childlike responses


Your shit talk isn't fooling anyone.

Midterms are coming. You ready for another nail in teh coffin holding your dreams?
 
Your shit talk isn't fooling anyone.

Midterms are coming. You ready for another nail in teh coffin holding your dreams?
Trumps trade war will have kicked in by then
 
Article 4, Sec. 2, Clause 3 guarantees a right to own slaves in 1861. Do you agree?

See also the 3/5's Clause, Aritcle I Sec. 2, Clause 3, and the Importation Clause, Article I, Sec. 9, Clause 1.

Quantrill
No question slavery was allowed

But most of the country was turning against it
It was morally wrong and the Confederacy was formed to ensure it was maintained. Confederacy was an Evil Empire on par with Nazi Germany

Not something to be honored
 
Trumps trade war will have kicked in by then


Yes. And you, like all libs, are confident that they will work wonders with wages.

That is why you are so desperate to try to frame the narrative BEFORE the results are in.


You are correct, that is your only hope.
 
No question slavery was allowed

But most of the country was turning against it
It was morally wrong and the Confederacy was formed to ensure it was maintained. Confederacy was an Evil Empire on par with Nazi Germany

Not something to be honored

Said the man, I mean "man" showing up to the fight 160 years after better men won the fight FOR him.


What a pathetic loser you are. I would love to see you magically transported to 1860, so you could fight in that war and, assuming you survived, then try to argue with them that instead of healing the wounds of the war, that you should really rub the shame of defeat into the faces of your former foes.


They would have horsewhipped you, like you deserve.
 
Yes. And you, like all libs, are confident that they will work wonders with wages.

That is why you are so desperate to try to frame the narrative BEFORE the results are in.


You are correct, that is your only hope.
Republicans will live or die on their trade war

Do you feel lucky?
 
Republicans will live or die on their trade war

Do you feel lucky?

I wouldn't call it luck, but YES.

Although to be completely honest, I think I am less confident than you lefties are about it.

Your hysterical despertation reeks of you thinking that getting ahead of facts of the policies, is your only hope.


And it is not just the tariffs, it is the deportations and the law and order and the deregulations, and...just the renewal of the American Spirit.


MAGA.
 
No question slavery was allowed

But most of the country was turning against it
It was morally wrong and the Confederacy was formed to ensure it was maintained. Confederacy was an Evil Empire on par with Nazi Germany

Not something to be honored

Slavery was Constitutionally allowed and protected.

No problem if others consider it wrong. As long as you recognize the South was not traitor for having it. The North was traitor in not allowing the South its protections under the Constitution.

We seceded because of that wrong.

"It was not the passage of the personal liberty laws, it was not the circulation of incendiary documents, it was not the raid of John Brown, it was not the operation of unjust and unequal tariff laws, nor all combined, that constituted the intolerable grievance, but it was the systematic and persistent struggle to deprive the Southern states of equality in the Union--generally to discriminate in legislation against the interests of their people; culminating in their exclusion from the territories, the common property of the states, as well as by the infraction of their compact to promote domestic tranquility. (Rise And Fall Of The Confederate Government, Vol. 1, Jefferson Davis, Da Capo Press, 1990, p. 70)

Quantrill
 
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Slavery was Constitutionally allowed and protected.

No problem if others consider it wrong. As long as you recognize the South was not traitor for having it. The North was traitor in not allowing the South its protections under the Constitution.

We seceded becasuse of that wrong.

"It was not the passage of the personal liberty laws, it was not the circulation of incendiary documents, it was not the raid of John Brown, it was not the operation of unjust and unequal tariff laws, nor all combined, that constituted the intolerable grievance, but it was the systematic and persistent struggle to deprive the Southern states of equality in the Union--generally to discriminate in legislation against the interests of their people; culminating in their exclusion from the territories, the common property of the states, as well as by the infraction of their compact to promote domestic tranquility. (Rise And Fall Of The Confederate Government, Vol. 1, Jefferson Davis, Da Capo Press, 1990, p. 70)

Quantrill
“We”?
???
 
You call me traitor, savage, and glad so many of us traitors died,
Unless you fought in the Civil War and/or owned slaves this isn't referring to you. Are you a vampire who fought in the Civil War?
then ask if I am proud to be American?
Yes, as an American are you proud that we kept the country together and freed 4MM people?
 
Unless you fought in the Civil War and/or owned slaves this isn't referring to you. Are you a vampire who fought in the Civil War?

Yes, as an American are you proud that we kept the country together and freed 4MM people?

Gee, why do you say 'we kept the country together'? Were you there? Oxymoronic statements you make.

Quantrill
 
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