Zone1 Was Eve expelled from Eden, or did she leave with Adam?

[rosends]

It's not my opinion. It's Jewish dogma.

no, you see, that's the thing -- it isn't. I know Judaism more than you so you shouldn't be telling me things you claim about my religion.

This is you rationalizing you aren't violating Jewish dogma when you are. No different than what Adam did. You haven't learned a thing.

I cited religious authorities. You have your opinion. Your opinion means nothing.

I got it from Jesus.

ok, so you're both wrong.

 

[rosends]

If he is serving himself instead of God, I am using it correctly.

That's not how it is used or what it means. You are wrong. Claiming that you are using a term from my religion correctly and rejecting when I, as a practitioner of my religion, know otherwise and say so, is particularly ignorant and arrogant.

 

[Divine Wind]

Absolute statements are rarely correct.

Sometimes they are. You're free to disagree with Christ's statements just like I'm disagreeing that Genesis is the "Gospel" truth.

Do you believe mankind is only 6000 years old per dating by the Bible, or do you accept the science that Homo Sapiens Sapiens has been around 160,000 years?

 

[BreezeWood]

Dominion over the earth was Adams. They weren't being held prisoner. Adam was King of the earth, living in a perfect Garden.

Genesis1:26-28 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

the 1st century events, jesus is the repudiation of judaism ...

Then they said, “Let us make life in our image, in our likeness, the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky the livestock and all the wild animals, and all the creatures that move along the ground.”

throughout those events be they commandments, forgeries lies and fallacies were the underlaying motivations that led to the senseless crucifixion for who did have the knowledge of good vs evil and was not afraid to stand for their conviction over paper bibles the same as a&e.

all three desert bibles written by crucifiers - who have yet to be brought to justice.

 

[ding]

no, you see, that's the thing -- it isn't. I know Judaism more than you so you shouldn't be telling me things you claim about my religion.

If you read non-canonical religious texts then you have forfeited your place in the world to come.

“…While "All Israel have a share in the World to Come," certain specific beliefs and actions can result in the forfeiture of that share.…

…Any Jew who reads "external literature" (non-canonical/heretical books) will not have a place in The World to Come…."

I cited religious authorities. You have your opinion. Your opinion means nothing.

No. I cited religious authorities. See?

“…While "All Israel have a share in the World to Come," certain specific beliefs and actions can result in the forfeiture of that share.…

…Any Jew who reads "external literature" (non-canonical/heretical books) will not have a place in The World to Come…."

ok, so you're both wrong.

Says the guy that doesn't believe the NT qualifies as non-canonical heresy with respect to the beliefs of Judaism.

That's not how it is used or what it means. You are wrong. Claiming that you are using a term from my religion correctly and rejecting when I, as a practitioner of my religion, know otherwise and say so, is particularly ignorant and arrogant.

This is pretty simple. The OP created a thread to slander Christianity under the disguise of something else. That's not serving God. That's serving himself. He wasn't interested in an honest discussion. He was only interested in saying Christianity blames Eve. And rather than coming out directly, he used deception. He hid.

 

[Ace Nova]

an errant, artificial paradise that would never exist ...

Based on your level of understanding and posts....

If the Earth is The Sabbath - Is The Garden of Eden the Sabbath the way it was intended to be?

 

[BreezeWood]

Adam and Eve (and their descendants) wore animal skins as clothing - did they not?

They were farmers who tilled the land and shepherds with flocks of animals.

They were quite literally "red necks" from the beginning. And they became so as a "consequence" of choosing to live lives in the natural world as conscious beings - the very same thing you state "granted them judgement" into the "everlasting", no?

they were provided the heavenly goal per their choice - the triumph of good vs evil - necessary to accomplish for judgement if in the affirmative for their admission to the everlasting. all living beings.

a goal perhaps, maybe jesus accomplished and at best a handful of unknown others - no desert dwellers - since that time.

remove the desert bibles and an avalanche of such triumphs would undoubtedly occur where in the final day of judgement all would be the same.

the religion of antiquity.

 

[ding]

Sometimes they are.

LIke I said... Absolute statements are rarely correct.

You're free to disagree with Christ's statements just like I'm disagreeing that Genesis is the "Gospel" truth.

Which statements of Christ do you believe I am disagreeing with?

Do you believe mankind is only 6000 years old per dating by the Bible, or do you accept the science that Homo Sapiens Sapiens has been around 160,000 years?

Don't stop there. The sun/earth is about 4.6 billion years old and the universe is about 14 billion years old. Genesis is an allegorical account that teaches lessons about the covenant, obedience and justice. Specifically that successful behaviors naturally lead to success and failed behaviors naturally lead to failure. Which is literally the basis for establishing standards.

 

[rosends]

If you read non-canonical religious texts then you have forfeited your place in the world to come.

“…While "All Israel have a share in the World to Come," certain specific beliefs and actions can result in the forfeiture of that share.…

…Any Jew who reads "external literature" (non-canonical/heretical books) will not have a place in The World to Come…."

where are those quotes from? They aren't from the mishnaic text or from the commentaries

Mishnah Sanhedrin 10:1 | Sefaria Library

All of the Jewish people, even sinners and those who are liable to be executed with a court-imposed death penalty, have a share in the World-to-Come, as it is...

www.sefaria.org

No. I cited religious authorities. See?

“…While "All Israel have a share in the World to Come," certain specific beliefs and actions can result in the forfeiture of that share.…

…Any Jew who reads "external literature" (non-canonical/heretical books) will not have a place in The World to Come…."

which authorities exactly? You aren't an authority and the ones I posted don't agree with you.

Says the guy that doesn't believe the NT qualifies as non-canonical heresy with respect to the beliefs of Judaism.

you just don't get it. You aren't the one who decides what "chitzonim" are. Just because you think it could or even should include something doesn't mean that under Jewish law, it does. You are no expert on Jewish law so you should really stop making claims about Jewish law.

This is pretty simple. The OP created a thread to slander Christianity under the disguise of something else. That's not serving God. That's serving himself. He wasn't interested in an honest discussion. He was only interested in in saying Christianity blames Eve. And rather than coming out directly, he used deception. He hid.

So? That has nothing to do with either the mishna you cited or the Jewish concept of the yetzer hara. Use your own ideas -- don't try to piggy back on things you don't understand.

 

[Ace Nova]

the 1st century events, jesus is the repudiation of judaism ...



throughout those events be they commandments, forgeries lies and fallacies were the underlaying motivations that led to the senseless crucifixion for who did have the knowledge of good vs evil and was not afraid to stand for their conviction over paper bibles the same as a&e.

all three desert bibles written by crucifiers - who have yet to be brought to justice.

Jesus of Nazareth was a Jewish Rabbi. He did not "repudiate Judaism".

There were other "leaders" within the 1st century and before - some with similar names. Maybe those are the "Jesus" you speak of.

That said - some of your main points are true - Jesus wanted people to think differently - act differently - and rely less on customs - yet still respect "customs of their father and mother".

He was upset that some of the leaders of the time would not accept his teachings, works and miracles into traditional Jewish teachings.

In the end - he felt betrayed by the ones closest to him - hence him saying, "My Kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my followers would be fighting for me now".

And even that was a "double edged sword". On one hand he was dismayed that his followers abandoned him - on the other hand, his entire ministry taught thinking on a higher level and "taking the higher road" when it came to politics and religious teachings.



The people he healed, the people he taught, the people he loved most were all Jewish. It wasn't until later in his ministry he began to accept and teach others - and eventually instructed his followers to spread his message around the world to Jewish people and Gentiles alike.

 

[Divine Wind]

LIke I said... Absolute statements are rarely correct.

Which statements of Christ do you believe I am disagreeing with?

Don't stop there. The sun/earth is about 4.6 billion years old and the universe is about 14 billion years old. Genesis is an allegorical account that teaches lessons about the covenant, obedience and justice. Specifically that successful behaviors naturally lead to success and failed behaviors naturally lead to failure. Which is literally the basis for establishing standards.

The one where you commented about absolute statements.

Agreed about the age of our universe and the Earth along with that Genesis is allegorical. Ergo, like Aesop's fables, it shouldn't be taken literally.

 

[ding]

where are those quotes from? They aren't from the mishnaic text or from the commentaries

From your link.

All of the Jewish people, even sinners and those who are liable to be executed with a court-imposed death penalty, have a share in the World-to-Come, as it is stated: “And your people also shall be all righteous, they shall inherit the land forever; the branch of My planting, the work of My hands, for My name to be glorified” (Isaiah 60:21). And these are the exceptions, the people who have no share in the World-to-Come, even when they fulfilled many mitzvot: One who says: There is no resurrection of the dead derived from the Torah, and one who says: The Torah did not originate from Heaven, and an epikoros, who treats Torah scholars and the Torah that they teach with contempt. Rabbi Akiva says: Also included in the exceptions are one who reads external literature, and one who whispers invocations over a wound and says as an invocation for healing: “Every illness that I placed upon Egypt I will not place upon you, for I am the Lord, your Healer” (Exodus 15:26). By doing so, he shows contempt for the sanctity of the name of God and therefore has no share in the World-to-Come. Abba Shaul says: Also included in the exceptions is one who pronounces the ineffable name of God as it is written, with its letters.

which authorities exactly? You aren't an authority and the ones I posted don't agree with you.

I literally just used your link to show you that you have forfeited your place in the world to come.

you just don't get it. You aren't the one who decides what "chitzonim" are. Just because you think it could or even should include something doesn't mean that under Jewish law, it does. You are no expert on Jewish law so you should really stop making claims about Jewish law.

I literally just used your link to show you that you have forfeited your place in the world to come.

So? That has nothing to do with either the mishna you cited or the Jewish concept of the yetzer hara. Use your own ideas -- don't try to piggy back on things you don't understand.

The OP created a thread to slander Christianity under the disguise of something else. That's not serving God. That's serving himself. He wasn't interested in an honest discussion. He was only interested in saying Christianity blames Eve. And rather than coming out directly, he used deception. He hid.

 

[ding]

The one where you commented about absolute statements.

How exactly did that pertain to any statement Christ made? Because I was commenting on your stereo typing of Trump supporters.

Agreed about the age of our universe and the Earth along with that Genesis is allegorical. Ergo, like Aesop's fables, it shouldn't be taken literally.

Nor should it be marginalized or dismissed as fairy tales.

 

[Ace Nova]

Do you believe mankind is only 6000 years old per dating by the Bible, or do you accept the science that Homo Sapiens Sapiens has been around 160,000 years?

The entire creation depends on perspective. And both Science and the Bible agree.

Not taking quantum physics into account. (Something existing outside our known 3 dimensional Universe.)



For someone existing at the exact moment of the Big Bang, the universe would be 0 years old.

Time itself began at the start of the expansion, meaning no time could have elapsed prior to that moment.

Because time is relative, the concept of a universe's age depends on your reference frame:

• From your perspective (at the Big Bang): The universe has existed for exactly 0 seconds. You are experiencing the very first moment of time, space, and energy.
• From our perspective (present-day Earth): If you could exist at the Big Bang and somehow travel forward to observe us in 2026, you would experience 13.8 billion years of cosmic history passing. Time would have ticked at a normal rate for you, but the universe around you would have aged by billions of years.

 

[rosends]

From your link.

All of the Jewish people, even sinners and those who are liable to be executed with a court-imposed death penalty, have a share in the World-to-Come, as it is stated: “And your people also shall be all righteous, they shall inherit the land forever; the branch of My planting, the work of My hands, for My name to be glorified” (Isaiah 60:21). And these are the exceptions, the people who have no share in the World-to-Come, even when they fulfilled many mitzvot: One who says: There is no resurrection of the dead derived from the Torah, and one who says: The Torah did not originate from Heaven, and an epikoros, who treats Torah scholars and the Torah that they teach with contempt. Rabbi Akiva says: Also included in the exceptions are one who reads external literature, and one who whispers invocations over a wound and says as an invocation for healing: “Every illness that I placed upon Egypt I will not place upon you, for I am the Lord, your Healer” (Exodus 15:26). By doing so, he shows contempt for the sanctity of the name of God and therefore has no share in the World-to-Come. Abba Shaul says: Also included in the exceptions is one who pronounces the ineffable name of God as it is written, with its letters.

and not what you said. So, again, what were you quoting from when you made your claim?

I literally just used your link to show you that you have forfeited your place in the world to come.

you don't understand it

I literally just used your link to show you that you have forfeited your place in the world to come.

no, you have only shown your ignorance of Jewish law.

The OP created a thread to slander Christianity under the disguise of something else. That's not serving God. That's serving himself. He wasn't interested in an honest discussion. He was only interested in saying Christianity blames Eve. And rather than coming out directly, he used deception. He hid.

that is immaterial to Jewish law.
remember

בדרך עראי, המאמין לא יחוש מלקרות בהן, כדי לידע מה להשיב לאפיקורוס

 

[BreezeWood]

Jesus of Nazareth was a Jewish Rabbi ... In the end - he felt betrayed by the ones closest to him ...

mary, joseph, jesus, mary m were never jewish they did not fear moses their commandments nor judaism - that is the 1st century events - they were crucified by judaism for their repudiation of the false religion, commandments hereditary idolatry religion of apartheid et al - 4th century christianity is a reversion of judaism those in the 1st century gave their lives in opposition.

there were non close to jesus than mary m who would defy openly the cause of their death.

 

[markef]

What if Eve was not expelled from the Garden of Eden at all?

The argument goes like this.
God's command was:
“From the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, you shall not eat from it.”
But when the woman eats, the text says she took from the fruit and ate.
Later, when the man speaks, he says:
“She gave me from the tree, and I ate.”
So this reading makes a very sharp distinction:

• The woman ate from the fruit
• Adam ate from the tree itself
• That means the man, not the woman, directly violated the command

Then look at the expulsion itself. The verse says:
“And He drove out Adam”
It does not say: “He drove out the man and the woman.”
So the claim is simple but radical:
Adam was expelled from Eden. Eve was not.

According to this approach, Eve then left Eden to live with Adam in this world, because without that there could be no marriage, no children, and no human future.

And perhaps that is why women often feel less at home in this world than men do. In this view, man is more tied to the work of this world, while woman remains more connected to a more complete world, closer to Eden. Marriage, then, is not just a partnership between two people. It is the meeting of this world and a higher world.

What do you think?

Source: בראשית - חוה - אם כל חי (סיכום)

Yes, both Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden. They would never have had any children if Adam had been locked out of the Garden and Even had been locked in, which is a ridiculous notion.

 

[Divine Wind]

How exactly did that pertain to any statement Christ made? Because I was commenting on your stereo typing of Trump supporters.


Nor should it be marginalized or dismissed as fairy tales.

You made it about the entire statement and mentioned nothing of political lackies.

You believe the story of Eden, Adam and Eve has historical validity other than Moses writing it down 2400 years after is supposedly happened?

 

[ding]

and not what you said. So, again, what were you quoting from when you made your claim?

you don't understand it

no, you have only shown your ignorance of Jewish law.

that is immaterial to Jewish law.
remember

בדרך עראי, המאמין לא יחוש מלקרות בהן, כדי לידע מה להשיב לאפיקורוס

Don't worry. Men can't decide for God who God invites. Your dogma is wrong.

 

[Divine Wind]

Yes, both Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden. They would never have had any children if Adam had been locked out of the Garden and Even had been locked in, which is a ridiculous notion.

True, but the OP question is whether she was thrown out with Adam or left voluntarily with him.

I've quoted Genesis where it says they were both thrown out together.