Warrior vs. Pacifist Christianity

zaangalewa

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... Christ preached peace in the kingdom. In his lifetime, peace did not reign in the temple jurisdiction. So he wielded a sword. ...
Hmm ... to see people go 180% into the wrong direction is a normal "wonder" in the 21st century.


Kennst Du das Land, wo die Kanonen blühn?

Kennst Du das Land, wo die Kanonen blühn?
Du kennst es nicht? Du wirst es kennenlernen!
Dort stehn die Prokuristen stolz und kühn
in den Büros, als wären es Kasernen.
Dort wachsen unterm Schlips Gefreitenknöpfe.
Und unsichtbare Helme trägt man dort.
Gesichter hat man dort, doch keine Köpfe.
Und wer zu Bett geht, pflanzt sich auch schon fort!
Wenn dort ein Vorgesetzter etwas will
- und es ist sein Beruf etwas zu wollen -
steht der Verstand erst stramm und zweitens still.
Die Augen rechts! Und mit dem Rückgrat rollen!
Die Kinder kommen dort mit kleinen Sporen
und mit gezognem Scheitel auf die Welt.
Dort wird man nicht als Zivilist geboren.
Dort wird befördert, wer die Schnauze hält.
Kennst Du das Land? Es könnte glücklich sein.
Es könnte glücklich sein und glücklich machen.
Dort gibt es Äcker, Kohle, Stahl und Stein
und Fleiß und Kraft und andre schöne Sachen.
Selbst Geist und Güte gibt's dort dann und wann!
Und wahres Heldentum. Doch nicht bei vielen.
Dort steckt ein Kind in jedem zweiten Mann.
Das will mit Bleisoldaten spielen.
Dort reift die Freiheit nicht. Dort bleibt sie grün.
Was man auch baut - es werden stets Kasernen.
Kennst Du das Land, wo die Kanonen blühn?
Du kennst es nicht? Du wirst es kennenlernen!


Erich Kästner (1927)
I'm only pretty sure the peace that Christ taught had nothing to do with society but instead was about having peace through the storm. It was a personal message; not a societal one. At least not in the way people are supposing. You fix a society the same way you eat an elephant; one bite at a time.
I don't eat elephants.


Es geht ums Tun und nicht ums Siegen.



1943, kurz vor dem Ende der Nazidiktatur, wurden die Geschwister Sophie und Hans Scholl und vier weitere Mitglieder der Widerstandsbewegung "Die Weiße Rose" in München hingerichtet. Ihnen und all denen, die sich auch heute - und gerade heute wieder - dem Faschismus und Rassismus entgegenstellen, ist dieses Lied zugeeignet.

Jetzt haben sie euch zur Legende gemacht
Und in Unwirklichkeiten versponnen,
Denn dann ist einem - um den Vergleich gebracht -
Auch das schlechte Gewissen genommen.

Ihr wärt heute genauso unbequem
Wie alle, die zwischen den Fahnen stehn,
Denn die aufrecht gehn, sind in jedem System
Nur historisch hoch angesehn.

Ihr wärt hier so wichtig, Sophie und Hans,
Alexander und all die andern,
Eure Schlichtheit und euer Mut,
Euer Gottvertrauen - ach, tät das gut!
Denn die Menschlichkeit, man kann es verstehn,
War hierzuland eher ungern gesehn
Und beschloß deshalb auszuwandern.

Ihr habt geschrien,
Wo alle schwiegen,
Obwohl ein Schrei nichts ändern kann,
Ihr habt gewartet, ihr seid geblieben,
Ihr habt geschrien,
Wo alle schwiegen -
Es ging ums Tun und
Nicht ums Siegen!


Das Land ist sicher menschlicher seitdem.
Doch noch wird geduckt und getreten.
Der Herbst an der Isar ist wunderschön,
Und in den Wäldern lagern Raketen.

Ich würd mal mit euch für mein Leben gern
Ein paar Stunden zusammen sitzen,
Doch so nah ihr mir seid, dazu seid ihr zu fern,
Trotzdem werd ich die Ohren spitzen.

Ihr wärt hier so wichtig, Sophie und Hans,
Alexander und all die andern,
Eure Schlichtheit und euer Mut,
Euer Gottvertrauen - ach, tät das gut!
Denn die Menschlichkeit, man kann's verstehn,
War hierzuland eher ungern gesehn
Und beschloß deshalb auszuwandern.

Ihr habt geschrien,
Wo alle schwiegen,
Obwohl ein Schrei nichts ändern kann,
Ihr habt gewartet,
Ihr seid geblieben,
Ihr habt geschrien,
Wo alle schwiegen -
Es ging ums Tun
Und nicht ums Siegen!

Ihr habt gewartet,
Ihr seid geblieben,
Ihr habt geschrien,
Wo alle schwiegen -
Es geht ums Tun
Und nicht ums Siegen!


Konstantin Wecker
And you don't understand the good news either.
I don't understand the word "either" now.


Es ist alles eitel

Du siehst, wohin du siehst, nur Eitelkeit auf Erden.
Was dieser heute baut, reißt jener morgen ein:
Wo jetzt noch Städte stehn, wird eine Wiese sein,
Auf der ein Schäferskind wird spielen mit den Herden.

Was jetzt noch prächtig blüht, soll bald zertreten werden.
Was jetzt so pocht und trotzt, ist morgen Asch’ und Bein,
Nichts ist, das ewig sei, kein Erz, kein Marmorstein.
Jetzt lacht das Glück uns an, bald donnern die Beschwerden.

Der hohen Taten Ruhm muss wie ein Traum vergehn.
Soll denn das Spiel der Zeit, der leichte Mensch, bestehn?
Ach! Was ist alles dies, was wir für köstlich achten,

Als schlechte Nichtigkeit, als Schatten, Staub und Wind;
Als eine Wiesenblum’, die man nicht wieder find’t.
Noch will, was ewig ist, kein einig Mensch betrachten!


Andreas Gryphius (1637)
 

zaangalewa

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ding

With your comment "funny" after post #18 - what means in your culture not "funny" from the word fun (in sense of joy) but "to laugh contemptously" - you disqualified yourselve to be a Nazi. So the question could perhaps be: Why do you do so, although you don't like to do so? Or: How perfect is your perfectionism?

 

ding

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ding

With your comment "funny" after post #18 - what means in your culture not "funny" from the word fun (in sense of joy) but "to laugh contemptously" - you disqualified yourselve to be a Nazi. So the question could perhaps be: Why do you do so, although you don't like to do so? Or: How perfect is your perfectionism?

I'm not perfect and there's nothing special about me. I never claimed to be a saint.
 

zaangalewa

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ding

With your comment "funny" after post #18 - what means in your culture not "funny" from the word fun (in sense of joy) but "to laugh contemptously" - you disqualified yourselve to be a Nazi. So the question could perhaps be: Why do you do so, although you don't like to do so? Or: How perfect is your perfectionism?

I'm not perfect and there's nothing special about me. I never claimed to be a saint.
 

ding

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ding

With your comment "funny" after post #18 - what means in your culture not "funny" from the word fun (in sense of joy) but "to laugh contemptously" - you disqualified yourselve to be a Nazi. So the question could perhaps be: Why do you do so, although you don't like to do so? Or: How perfect is your perfectionism?

I'm not perfect and there's nothing special about me. I never claimed to be a saint.
No idea.
 

zaangalewa

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ding

With your comment "funny" after post #18 - what means in your culture not "funny" from the word fun (in sense of joy) but "to laugh contemptously" - you disqualified yourselve to be a Nazi. So the question could perhaps be: Why do you do so, although you don't like to do so? Or: How perfect is your perfectionism?

I'm not perfect and there's nothing special about me. I never claimed to be a saint.
No idea.
Exactly. You have no idea what I [do not] speak about here.

 
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Picaro

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The Apostles carried swords. Self-defense is fine, as is a nation defending itself. It's a myth that Christians have to be some sort of super pacifists, and comes from a silly mis-interpretation of the Sermon on the Mount. Peter himself whacked the ear off of an official that came to arrest Jesus, after all. Jews themselves were a warlike tribe all through their history and after as wee, when they served in the Muslims' invader armies, all the way back to serving as mercenaries for Egyptian rulers in forts at the Elephantine.

the people who peddle the 'Uber-Pacifist' rubbish the most are assorted deviants and sociopaths, the types who want to toss Xians into ovens; they try and sell that nonsense to make it a lot easier on themselves to threaten Xians and when they come to march them off to concentration camps for the crime of frowning on mass baby murders and faggots cornholing little boys.
Once upon a time in America, Christians were outspoken in the public square, even taking sabbaticals from their clerical positions to fight in the Revolution.

After decades of pacifism in the church - more than a century, even - no wonder the country has lurched so far to the left and the church has started to decline.
Christians have always been a minority everywhere, but they've never been such a passive milksop collective as the majority are now and constituted a brake on all kinds of bad behavior, both social and economic injustices sooner or later got addressed. Not any more, and that is sad.
 
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Picaro

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Back in high school I met protestant type of christians not sure what type of protestant who said a Christian cant serve in the army. But orthodox + catholic bless guns. And they are the warrior type of christianity. Im proud to be orthodox. I like warrior christianity.
Jews in 17th century eastern Europe used to build their synagogues with gun ports and cannon emplacements, like fortresses.

The Jehovah's Witnesses won't serve in militaries, or pledge allegiance to any country, and a few other small sects like some Mennonites. They're not really 'Protestants', though, more like 'Anti-Protestants'; the 'official' Protestant sects are the Lutherans, Anglicans, Episcopalians, and Calvinists, all of which had zero problems with military service. Think Fredrick, Mannstein, and Cromwell..
 
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zaangalewa

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Exactly. You have no idea what I [do not] speak about here.
Which of course means he's sane.
Something is definitely wrong with the whole USA. You are not able to speak with each other any longer. The paradox: In your dreams "you" are able to communicate with ETs from an endless row of parallel universes - but you don't understand any longer some simple basic ideas, some simple rules and some simple words.
 
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zaangalewa

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... Jews in 17th century eastern Europe used to build their synagogues with gun ports and cannon emplacements, like fortresses.
Never heard about. Give me a concrete example. It would be astonishing if the Czar had allowed them to do so. On the other side: Also monasteries had often to defend themselves in history- and this not only in the East of Europe.

The Jehovah's Witnesses won't serve in militaries,
Same do the Amish or did do the Cathars and others.

or pledge allegiance to any country, and a few other small sects like some Mennonites. They're not really 'Protestants',
Whatelse?

though, more like 'Anti-Protestants';
What a nonsense. Protestants are anti-catholic protesters. Ergo: Anti-Protestants would be anti-anti-Catholic protesters = defenders of the catholic faith.

the 'official' Protestant sects are the Lutherans, Anglicans, Episcopalians, and Calvinists, all of which had zero problems with military service. Think Fredrick, annstein, and Cromwell.
Oliver Cromwell was an extremist criminal and the other two names say nothing to me. What have they to do with the Christian religion?
 
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zaangalewa

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... Christians have always been a minority everywhere ...
Not so for example in the most countries of Europe during the middle ages. An emperor of the holy empire was for example called a good emperor when he was able to avoid wars.
 

james bond

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Exactly. You have no idea what I [do not] speak about here.
Which of course means he's sane.
Something is definitely wrong with the whole USA. You are not able to speak with each other any longer. The paradox: In your dreams "you" are able to communicate with ETs from an endless row of parallel universes - but you don't understand any longer some simple basic ideas, some simple rules and some simple words.
Now, it's not eating an elephant and not funny.

Why blame the USA? It started with Israel, no? What happened to its people and Babylonians?
 

zaangalewa

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Exactly. You have no idea what I [do not] speak about here.
Which of course means he's sane.
Something is definitely wrong with the whole USA. You are not able to speak with each other any longer. The paradox: In your dreams "you" are able to communicate with ETs from an endless row of parallel universes - but you don't understand any longer some simple basic ideas, some simple rules and some simple words.
Now, it's not eating an elephant and not funny.

Why blame the USA? It started with Israel, no? What happened to its people and Babylonians?
I do not have a big idea what the most of this part of my ancestors did do during the history of the last few thousand years. I have the feeling the Jews were always very weak people with very mighty enemies. But their pathetic enemies are often a past, which is gone forever - while the Jews on their own still live a quite normal crazy life.

 
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ding

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ding

With your comment "funny" after post #18 - what means in your culture not "funny" from the word fun (in sense of joy) but "to laugh contemptously" - you disqualified yourselve to be a Nazi. So the question could perhaps be: Why do you do so, although you don't like to do so? Or: How perfect is your perfectionism?

I'm not perfect and there's nothing special about me. I never claimed to be a saint.
No idea.
Exactly. You have no idea what I [do not] speak about here.

Correct. You are a poor communicator.
 

Picaro

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... Jews in 17th century eastern Europe used to build their synagogues with gun ports and cannon emplacements, like fortresses.
Never heard about. Give me a concrete example. It would be astonishing if the Czar had allowed them to do so. On the other side: Also monasteries had often to defend themselves in history- and this not only in the East of Europe.

The Jehovah's Witnesses won't serve in militaries,
Same do the Amish or did do the Cathars and others.

or pledge allegiance to any country, and a few other small sects like some Mennonites. They're not really 'Protestants',
Whatelse?

though, more like 'Anti-Protestants';
What a nonsense. Protestants are anti-catholic protesters. Ergo: Anti-Protestants would be anti-anti-Catholic protesters = defenders of the catholic faith.

the 'official' Protestant sects are the Lutherans, Anglicans, Episcopalians, and Calvinists, all of which had zero problems with military service. Think Fredrick, annstein, and Cromwell.
Oliver Cromwell was an extremist criminal and the other two names say nothing to me. What have they to do with the Christian religion?
Yes, we know you don't know squat, and you know nothing about the meaning of words. So what else is new?
 

Picaro

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... Christians have always been a minority everywhere ...
Not so for example in the most countries of Europe during the middle ages. An emperor of the holy empire was for example called a good emperor when he was able to avoid wars.
Rubbish. The peasants remained mostly pagan, and in practice many of the nobility. This is still true today.
 

zaangalewa

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... Jews in 17th century eastern Europe used to build their synagogues with gun ports and cannon emplacements, like fortresses.
Never heard about. Give me a concrete example. It would be astonishing if the Czar had allowed them to do so. On the other side: Also monasteries had often to defend themselves in history- and this not only in the East of Europe.

The Jehovah's Witnesses won't serve in militaries,
Same do the Amish or did do the Cathars and others.

or pledge allegiance to any country, and a few other small sects like some Mennonites. They're not really 'Protestants',
Whatelse?

though, more like 'Anti-Protestants';
What a nonsense. Protestants are anti-catholic protesters. Ergo: Anti-Protestants would be anti-anti-Catholic protesters = defenders of the catholic faith.

the 'official' Protestant sects are the Lutherans, Anglicans, Episcopalians, and Calvinists, all of which had zero problems with military service. Think Fredrick, annstein, and Cromwell.
Oliver Cromwell was an extremist criminal and the other two names say nothing to me. What have they to do with the Christian religion?
Yes, we know you don't know squat,
¿We? ... and the expression "to know squat" makes not any sense.

and you know nothing about the meaning of words. So what else is new?
What should be new? Why?
 

zaangalewa

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