Zone1 your subjective truth is not necessarily Truth, period

And it is you saying this that saddens me, because what else matters to God aside from Jesus' blood? What do you think the purpose of the blood is?

God knows full well that no matter what we try to do, we can't eliminate, hide, brush away, or cover up sin. Once it's committed, it's there and it doesn't go away, ever. Do you really think our efforts mean diddly squat to God when it comes to sin? Do you think we can't go to God and be forgiven of ALL our sin, even the ones we're not conscious of committing? Do you believe that God says, "Nope, sorry. You may have forgotten that you did this, but I didn't, and until you remember and atone for every single thing you've ever done wrong, you won't get anywhere near me"?

Again, the thief on the cross didn't repent of all his sin or of any of it for that matter. All he had was faith, and that's all Jesus needed to take him to Paradise. Not Purgatory where he had to slug it out in pain and suffering until HE got it right, he did NOTHING!!! Jesus did it ALL for him. And if He could do it all for that man, He can do it all for me.
Then you believe you have it all figured out, no other possibilities at all? The thief on the cross, like Jesus, would have had a trial, would have most likely been beaten, or at the very least shoved around, had to carry his cross uphill, been nailed to it, and was hanging there. Yet you are so certain during all of this, he had no inclination to reconsider the events of his life and repent (have a complete change of heart). Next, is the certainty that Paradise is synonymous with heaven, and both Jesus and the thief entered heaven, not the garden outside the gates of heaven, and while there what was said to one another. Recall Jesus' ascension into heaven and his Father wouldn't occur until later, so perhaps you also know that the thief entered heaven before Jesus?

There are so many unknowns...it's awesome to reflect on all of them. Ever try to tie moonbeams in a neat little package? Often it best to reflect and leave it at that.
 
Then you believe you have it all figured out, no other possibilities at all?
It is the simplest explanation of the events as they are recorded in the Bible.
The thief on the cross, like Jesus, would have had a trial, would have most likely been beaten, or at the very least shoved around, had to carry his cross uphill, been nailed to it, and was hanging there. Yet you are so certain during all of this, he had no inclination to reconsider the events of his life and repent (have a complete change of heart).
Kind of like what happens to a person today when they fall before the Lord and accept His gift of salvation. It's not recorded that the thief verbally confessed and repented of any sin. What is recorded is his simple faith that Jesus honored. And don't you remember all that Scripture that talks about God not holding sin against people because of their faith?
Next, is the certainty that Paradise is synonymous with heaven, and both Jesus and the thief entered heaven, not the garden outside the gates of heaven, and while there what was said to one another.
The bottom line is, he was with Jesus. That's all that matters, because where Jesus is, there's peace, there's love, there's perfection. It's where I want to be, whether that's in official heaven, in the New Earth, Paradise, it doesn't matter.
Recall Jesus' ascension into heaven and his Father wouldn't occur until later, so perhaps you also know that the thief entered heaven before Jesus?
And here I thought you were all about heaven running on a completely different time scale so you can maintain that Mary is hearing and fulfilling millions of prayers on a daily basis and still has time to appear to people here and there to tell them things the Holy Spirit and the angels have always done.

He didn't go to Purgatory as Catholics keep telling us everyone must, a place of pain and suffering where you have to work on yourself and make yourself acceptable to God. The point is, as I keep saying, He went with Jesus, no further self-work necessary, because Jesus did it all. And, if He can do it for the thief, He can do it for me.
There are so many unknowns...it's awesome to reflect on all of them. Ever try to tie moonbeams in a neat little package? Often it best to reflect and leave it at that.
It is a vital theological point, however, whether Jesus' sacrifice was everything, the complete and total package, all i's dotted and t's crossed, nothing further needed to be done for salvation. I say yes, it was all that was needed. I can't move the needle further into green by my good works. I repent of sin out of sorrow for doing something that hurts the Father's heart, not out of terror that God is going to throw me away because I messed up. I do good works because of two things. One, He put within me His Spirit who nudges me to do them, and two, I want to please him. I don't do them thinking that God is keeping a giant spreadsheet of my deeds and going, "Just two more, just two more, then I can throw that sin into the sea of my forgetfulness".
 
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And here I thought you were all about heaven running on a completely different time scale so you can maintain that Mary is hearing and fulfilling millions of prayers on a daily basis and still has time to appear to people here and there to tell them things the Holy Spirit and the angels have always done.

He didn't go to Purgatory as Catholics keep telling us everyone must, a place of pain and suffering where you have to work on yourself and make yourself acceptable to God. The point is, as I keep saying, He went with Jesus, no further self-work necessary, because Jesus did it all. And, if He can do it for the thief, He can do it for me.
So you think Mary fulfills prayers. Catholics go with Revelation where it notes prayers of the saints are presented before God.

Then right now you hold the belief you are fully purified.
It is a vital theological point, however, whether Jesus' sacrifice was everything, the complete and total package, all i's dotted and t's crossed, nothing further needed to be done for salvation. I say yes, it was all that was needed. I can't move the needle further into green by my good works. I repent of sin out of sorrow for doing something that hurts the Father's heart, not out of terror that God is going to throw me away because I messed up. I do good works because of two things. One, He put within me His Spirit who nudges me to do them, and two, I want to please him. I don't do them thinking that God is keeping a giant spreadsheet of my deeds and going, "Just two more, just two more, then I can throw that sin into the sea of my forgetfulness".
I fully understand that when non-Catholic Christians do work they claim it is one thing, but they are equally certain Catholics do it, Catholics are trying to "earn" salvation. Catholics believe there is nothing to earn, but it appears that Protestants are certain there is something to earn because they insist Catholics are "earning". Shrug.
 
so you are better than someone who studies the history of the Church? That's what this sounds like.

You speak of living a full life. What does that even mean? It is a very subjective term because one person will say that fornicating with his g/friend is living life to the full.. yet God says that is mortal sin.. ditto the person who masturbates, another mortal sin... but some will say that is living life to the full and not worrying about God punishing it "because after all, everyone does it." Well, no, everyone does not.

But even if everyone does, that doesn't make everyone right, as the song says..
mortal sin? not found in the bible.
 
I understand that upon death we are outside of time, so how can we "shorten their 'sentence' "? Purgatory is purification. Would you remove a cake from the oven before it is fully baked?

We are asked to offer prayers, deeds, sacrifices to assist/comfort our brothers and sisters in Christ who are in purgatory. Sure, I've wondered why these souls who are not fully purified cannot pray for themselves. According to Mary (Marian apparitions) many who are in purgatory are those who have doubts. My own prayers are often offered for souls most in need, those who are forgotten, those who have been there (according to earthly time) 'longest'.

When do I stop? When I breathe my last.

Do I know if my prayers have ever helped? I know of two instances.
where is purgatory found in the bible? do you even understand justification and imputation? the bible says we are made perfect in Christ. no more purification needed.
 
I understand that upon death we are outside of time, so how can we "shorten their 'sentence' "? Purgatory is purification. Would you remove a cake from the oven before it is fully baked?

We are asked to offer prayers, deeds, sacrifices to assist/comfort our brothers and sisters in Christ who are in purgatory. Sure, I've wondered why these souls who are not fully purified cannot pray for themselves. According to Mary (Marian apparitions) many who are in purgatory are those who have doubts. My own prayers are often offered for souls most in need, those who are forgotten, those who have been there (according to earthly time) 'longest'.

When do I stop? When I breathe my last.

Do I know if my prayers have ever helped? I know of two instances.
not scriptural.
 
where is purgatory found in the bible? do you even understand justification and imputation? the bible says we are made perfect in Christ. no more purification needed.
Can we be perfect if we are not fully in Christ?
 
So you think Mary fulfills prayers. Catholics go with Revelation where it notes prayers of the saints are presented before God.

Then right now you hold the belief you are fully purified.
I believe I am fully forgiven, that the Spirit will lead me away from sin, confront me when I sin and lead me to repentance. I know full well I am not totally free from sin, but I DO have full confidence that God has the situation completely covered.
I fully understand that when non-Catholic Christians do work they claim it is one thing, but they are equally certain Catholics do it, Catholics are trying to "earn" salvation. Catholics believe there is nothing to earn, but it appears that Protestants are certain there is something to earn because they insist Catholics are "earning". Shrug.
Please understand, I KNOW you do not believe in earning salvation. I have, however, seen others post that works are necessary for salvation, and that's the problem. Works are not necessary for salvation, but the inevitable result of salvation. Therefore, if someone claims a saving faith in Jesus Christ but does not show His love, how can he be telling the truth?
 
debunking false teaching leading millions to hell you mean....
I'm pretty use to adherents of minor, insignificant religions being ignorant of the Catholic faith. Try harder to make your religion relevant. In the meantime marinate on this, Christ's said that unless you eat the body and drink the blood of Christ, you have no life in you. Your prove this daily with your rude behaviors. I'm going to pray for you.
 
I have, however, seen others post that works are necessary for salvation, and that's the problem.
Do we save ourselves by our faith? Perhaps this will assist in understanding the Catholic perspective.

Catholics believe we are saved by grace...through faith...working itself out in love. Do you recall James writing that faith without works is dead? Do you recall Jesus telling the parable of the final judgment where sheep are on his right, goats are on his left? What separated the sheep and the goats? It was works. The goats did not have the love to clothe the naked, feed the hungry, visit those in prison, etc. The sheep did. And what each person does--or does did not do--for these people, they did--or did not do--for Jesus.

Grace is an amazing gift. it is free. We are saved by grace...through a faith (that is not dead)...working itself out in love.

If a Catholic speaks of the need for works, it is quite likely that Catholic does not understand some Protestants think they mean "working to earn salvation". There is no need to earn salvation. Salvation is ours as an amazing gift. It is through our faith we open this gift, and since faith without works is dead, we are working our faith out in love. Our faith...not our salvation.
 
mortal sin? not found in the bible.
The term "mortal sin" is thought to come from the New Testament of the Bible, particularly 1 John 5:16–17. In this verse, the author of the Epistle writes, "There is a sin that leads to death".


Mortal sin is deadly
The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) says that a mortal sin "destroys in us the charity without which eternal beatitude is impossible".

Mortal sin is cut off from God
The CCC also says that an unrepented mortal sin "cuts us off from God forever".

Mortal sin is redeemed by repentance
The CCC says that a mortal sin can be "redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness".

Mortal sin requires three conditions
The CCC says that a mortal sin requires three conditions to be met: "grave matter," "full knowledge," and "deliberate consent".
 
not a church ...

the spoken religion of antiquity, liberation theology, self determination - non of which is found in any desert bible - is what jesus taught ... the same as had always been and will always be.

How do you know what Jesus taught if you reject the New Testament?
 
Do we save ourselves by our faith? Perhaps this will assist in understanding the Catholic perspective.

Catholics believe we are saved by grace...through faith...working itself out in love. Do you recall James writing that faith without works is dead? Do you recall Jesus telling the parable of the final judgment where sheep are on his right, goats are on his left? What separated the sheep and the goats? It was works. The goats did not have the love to clothe the naked, feed the hungry, visit those in prison, etc. The sheep did. And what each person does--or does did not do--for these people, they did--or did not do--for Jesus.

Grace is an amazing gift. it is free. We are saved by grace...through a faith (that is not dead)...working itself out in love.

If a Catholic speaks of the need for works, it is quite likely that Catholic does not understand some Protestants think they mean "working to earn salvation". There is no need to earn salvation. Salvation is ours as an amazing gift. It is through our faith we open this gift, and since faith without works is dead, we are working our faith out in love. Our faith...not our salvation.
I think you get it, because I agree with that perspective. Jesus clearly taught that salvation is a gift we receive through faith that then leads to a CHANGED life, complete with good works. We do ourselves no favors to think that if we just pray the right words and get baptized, we can live the rest of our lives however we want to and expect God to receive us when we die. We also do ourselves no favors to live in perpetual guilt, burdened by an overwhelming sense that we have to do a set number of tasks to outweigh some sin that we have committed, or God will reject us.

Jesus is all about the heart, and a changed heart in which the Holy Spirit is living WILL respond to His promptings regarding sin and obedience. IOW, and here is where certain other posters will wax apoplectic, we are not all obligated to the same set of good works as dictated by a church, but rather obligated to a pure, obedient heart that seeks God's presence at all times and hurries to obey.
 
How do you know what Jesus taught if you reject the New Testament?

really, and what they have written is not a springboard for everyone ...

why is what you believe passed down to the 4th century any different than what has been passed down since that time and before to the present - the triumph of good vs evil as the means for judgement and admission to the everlasting as the goal granted a&e and taught by jesus so difficult to understand.

might ask oneself what is there, the religion of antiquity that is a threat to the desert religions they took upon themselves to crucify jesus.
 
We can't save ourselves but on the other hand, Jesus cannot save us either -- unless we DO something

like repent
like penance for our sins
and PRAYER (which we often don't feel like doing because we are so busy.. usually doing things we could easily ditch doing but don't..)

so yeh, these people who think they don't have to do a thing to get to Heaven are wrong as... hell
 
We can't save ourselves but on the other hand, Jesus cannot save us either -- unless we DO something

like repent
like penance for our sins
and PRAYER (which we often don't feel like doing because we are so busy.. usually doing things we could easily ditch doing but don't..)

so yeh, these people who think they don't have to do a thing to get to Heaven are wrong as... hell
theif on the cross- many scriptures say believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you WILL BE SAVED. SIMPLE.
 
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