Vance say WW2 ended with negotiations

[Donald H]

He wants to be historically accurate and not a highly partisan, mean spirited
numbnut who has illusions of being a psychiatrist.

The OP made this a double-barreled question on:

1. WW2 surrender.

2. America's war against Russia with its Ukraine proxy.

I'm only interested in the latter, not trying to reinvent history or greener grass.

 

[Foxfyre]

Who is going to make them pay?

You?

When are you going to Ukraine to join their army?

You boomer clowns are all the same, feel that you are entitled to dictate to other countries how they can act. You’ll use the lives of other people for your insane wars.
Boomers are probably the worst generation to ever happen to the US. The perfect example of that is Old Cucks.

Only the leftist, woke, so-called progressive Marxist-minded clowns are like that. There are an awful lot of boomers among us MAGAs.

 

[DigitalDrifter]

Both Japan and Germany were beaten and both unconditionally surrendered. Yes, there were some diplomatic details, but that wasn't what brought them to their knees, and an end to the fighting.
Vance is likely thinking of wars post-WWII, where America no longer fights to win.

 

[Foxfyre]

The OP made this a double-barreled question on:

1. WW2 surrender.

2. America's war against Russia with its Ukraine proxy.

I'm only interested in the latter, not trying to reinvent history or greener grass.

The thread is about whether there were negotiations in the surrender process. The thread is to denigrate JD Vance and call him an idiot/mental defective because he knows that there were negotiations in the surrender processes. And he is right.

Most of us with an education know that. The leftist trolls who hate this Administration, hate America and all patriotic Americans either have no such education or they conveniently 'forget' what doesn't fit with their propaganda.

The caveat is that JD is just I think 41 years old and therefore has likely been educated in woke public institutions that teach revisionist history and other propaganda. So being so young, he may not have yet been able to unlearn all that.

But he was right that the surrender talks did include negotiations however minimal the concessions by the Allies were.

 

[GLASNOST]

Both Japan and Germany ..... unconditionally surrendered..

False.

 

[Mac-7]

Both Japan and Germany were beaten and both unconditionally surrendered. Yes, there were some diplomatic details, but that wasn't what brought them to their knees, and an end to the fighting.
Vance is likely thinking of wars post-WWII, where America no longer fights to win.

If Truman had not agreed to spare Hirohito the US may have had to invade Japan

Vance got it right

 

[Foxfyre]

False.

Gently disagree. They did both unconditionally surrender and had no power to demand anything. That does not mean that the Allies made no accommodations for them whatsoever in the surrender agreements, i.e. negotiations.

 

[Foxfyre]

That was after they surrendered.

Nevertheless it was part of the process of the signing of the peace documents.

 

[Donald H]

The caveat is that JD is just I think 41 years old and therefore has likely been educated in woke public institutions that teach revisionist history and other propaganda. So being so young, he may not have yet been able to unlearn all that.

No need to apologize for JD's less than mature education.

The only choice that Russia should be given is to get all their soldiers out of Ukraine, and pay damages for their unjust war.

In my opinion this discussion was intended to make the point that the OP believes that Russia should leave the Ukraine and pay damages.

IMO you're free to discuss the other issue on Japan's surrender. And too, I think you're missing the fun to be had with the flying school bag! And not to mention the fun to be had by dictating what the ropic has to be?

 

[Foxfyre]

If Truman had not agreed to spare Hirohito the US may have had to invade Japan

Vance got it right

That was terribly important to the Japanese. They knew they could be obliterated entirely if they did not surrender, but almost certainly surrendered more quickly with that assurance. They had no idea how many atomic bombs we had built to use against them.

"As Emperor Hirohito and his cabinet accepted the surrender terms on August 14, officials on both sides knew Japanese commanders and soldiers would find it a bitter pill to swallow. How could Japan’s proud troops be convinced to lay down their arms and finally end the bloodshed of World War II? . . .

. . .Hirohito recorded the Gyokuon-hōsō, his message to the Japanese people announcing the surrender. It was broadcast at noon the next day, August 15. This historic broadcast was the first time ordinary Japanese heard the voice of their Emperor, and together with the order drafted by Sommers, it convinced the vast majority to accept surrender.

All across the Allied nations, news that the war was finally ending sparked jubilation. Although both August 14 and 15 would be celebrated for years to come as Victory Over Japan Day or V-J Day, President Truman reminded Americans that the “proclamation of V-J Day must wait upon the formal signing of the surrender terms by Japan.. . ."

WWII 80: Japan Surrenders

Explore this historic moment through the archives of the Harry S. Truman Library and Museum...

www.trumanlibraryinstitute.org

 

[BackAgain]

Yeah it's a bit nuanced.

A better way of describing it would be "it was negotiations under duress:.

Well, of course. But what used to be the outcome for the losing nation was far worse for them.

 

[Bootstraps]

So it's your stance that no negotiations took place to prevent further warfare?

 

[Donald H]

Well, of course. But what used to be the outcome for the losing nation was far worse for them.

The only choice that Russia should be given is to get all their soldiers out of Ukraine, and pay damages for their unjust war.

Not necessarily for either Russia or America. There's a good possibly of what's left of the Ukraine becoming a UN monitered neutral. If you maga ckskrs can't imagine the real possibilities then you should just stfu. You're getting worse than 'concerned american' now.

 

[GLASNOST]

They did both unconditionally surrender

No, they DID NOT.

and had no power to demand anything.

Yes, THEY DID.

JAPAN:
1). Japan declared they would fight on if not allowed to keep the Emperor.
2). The US did not agree and reiterated its demand to an "unconditional" surrender
3). So Japan responded that they would in fact fight on.
4). At that, the US relented.

You see, Japan did have "power to demand" and they used it.

GERMANY:
1). It's debatable for sure but Germany surrendered to the Sovjet Union when they stormed Berlin and Adolf "offed" himself.
2). Germany's power to demand stems from the fact that the Nazis fought on in the West against orders. Not that I think they had hopes of winning against the Western Allies but PROBABLY with the intention of surrendering to them.

So, "power to demand"? It depends upon how you look at it.

That does not mean that the Allies made no accommodations for them whatsoever in the surrender agreements, i.e. negotiations.

"Accommodation"? That is a spin and I'm sure you realize it. In any case we can discuss and define and redefine "accommodations" and "conditions" all month long as regards to Germany but the case of Japan is absolutely clear ..... the Japanese dictated the conditions and the US ate crow.

 

[BackAgain]

Not necessarily for either Russia or America. There's a good possibly of what's left of the Ukraine becoming a UN monitered neutral. If you maga ckskrs can't imagine the real possibilities then you should just stfu. You're getting worse than 'concerned american' now.

Hey fuckin commie Duck. You quoted me on the first selection — but someone else on the second selection.

I don’t know if it was deliberate or if it’s just a manifestation of how stupid you are. But it also makes it unclear which post you’re addressing.

Also, it is not “the Ukraine.” It is “Ukraine” which is a sovereign nation.

And you happen to be the actual **********.

Hope that clarifies things for you, you moron.

 

[whitehall]

Hardly a "current event" but be careful about the history you thought you knew. Democrats dumped a smart V.P. in FDR's 4th term in favor of a dumb assed Missouri haberdasher without a college education. The Japanese were defeated but Truman refused to negotiate until we dropped two freaking Bombs on innocent Japanese in a defeated country. It was only then that the U.S. found MacArthur, nicknamed "dougout Doug" for his defeat on Bataan and Corrigador and his escape, to negotiate Unconditional surrender terms on the USS Missouri. What did Vance get wrong?

 

[Foxfyre]

No, they DID NOT.

Yes, THEY DID.

JAPAN:
1). Japan declared they would fight on if not allowed to keep the Emperor.
2). The US did not agree and reiterated its demand to an "unconditional" surrender
3). So Japan responded that they would in fact fight on.
4). At that, the US relented.

You see, Japan did have "power to demand" and they used it.

GERMANY:
1). It's debatable for sure but Germany surrendered to the Sovjet Union when they stormed Berlin and Adolf "offed" himself.
2). Germany's power to demand stems from the fact that the Nazis fought on in the West against orders. Not that I think they had hopes of winning against the Western Allies but PROBABLY with the intention of surrendering to them.

So, "power to demand"? It depends upon how you look at it.

"Accommodation"? That is a spin and I'm sure you realize it. In any case we can discuss and define and redefine "accommodations" and "conditions" all month long as regards to Germany but the case of Japan is absolutely clear ..... the Japanese dictated the conditions and the US ate crow.

I won't argue semantics on this. I will stand by my posts.

 

[Foxfyre]

Hardly a "current event" but be careful about the history you thought you knew. Democrats dumped a smart V.P. in FDR's 4th term in favor of a dumb assed Missouri haberdasher without a college education. The Japanese were defeated but Truman refused to negotiate until we dropped two freaking Bombs on innocent Japanese in a defeated country. It was only then that the U.S. found MacArthur, nicknamed "dougout Doug" for his defeat on Bataan and Corrigador and his escape, to negotiate Unconditional surrender terms on the USS Missouri. What did Vance get wrong?

Those two bombs were terrible, but they saved countless Allied lives as it otherwise almost certainly been necessary to invade Japan in order to get surrender. The alternative was to bomb Japan into obliteration which would have cost countless Japanese lives far more than were killed/wounded/damaged in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Truman indeed was a simple and common man. But he was amazing in many ways and I believe the right man we needed at that time.

P.S. the 'current event' is in the thread title. A deliberate intent to misrepresent and denigrate our current VP by someone who probably has studied none of the history at all and wouldn't understand it if he/she did.

 

[Donald H]

Hey fuckin commie Duck. You quoted me on the first selection — but someone else on the second selection.

I don’t know if it was deliberate or if it’s just a manifestation of how stupid you are. But it also makes it unclear which post you’re addressing.

It was deliberate.

 

[GLASNOST]

I won't argue semantics on this. I will stand by my posts.

This is a discussion and facts (at least in the case of Japan) are ducumented. "Semantics"? Who's arguing semantics?

JAPAN.

• US demands unconditional surrender.
• Japan replies "no, we will keep our Emperor".
• The US responds "then we'll continuing fighting or bombing".
• Japan responds "suit yourself".
• The US ate crow. .

The posts you stand on are incorrect. Documented. NO SEMANTIC ARGUEMENT, just facts.