USA was really really dumb to move so much manufacturing to China

[pknopp]

You still haven't backed up your position.

CAFE standards. Taxes on cars that USD more gas. (Trucks do not lay these taxes.)

Game, set, match. You lose.

Yes, we increased CAFE standards. That didn't ban big cars like you said so what are you saying? That you miss the days of smog filled cities?

For nearly generations ships produced steam by burning coal. Then after World War One, those ships went away quickly. It wasn’t the result of legislation. It wasn’t the result of requirements. It was the result of economic reality. Oil was better than coal. A new and more reliable system was developed. The market developed a newer and better system that was embraced by the world. Military, Private, and Commercial ships all used this new system.

Oil fired ships have gone the way of the Dodo too. Why? Diesel. Newer, more reliable Diesel engines were produced. Oil became too expensive to maintain, and it went away. Again, not the result of legislation, or requirements.

You say smog filled cities. Before the cars, those cities were awash with disease and the stench of horse droppings. The horses were not legislated away. Sure we have legislation now, but it came long after the fact that the Cars had replaced the horses. Cars were better. Faster, more reliable, and without the problems associated with horses.

Progress will get there. It takes time, and patience. Those smog filled cities were not good, but they were infinitely better than the disease ridden cesspools that existed when horses were the main source of transportation.

Coal fired steam engines driving trains are gone. Oh there are a few left around more for those souls who love the romance of the things. But they are more for tourists than true use as commercial engines.

That is the truth of the world. When you develop something better, you don’t need to legislate it. It will be adapted by the world quickly. Airplanes? No one legislated that they must be used. But after World War II the days of the large Ocean Liners, like the ill fated Titanic, were numbered, and everyone knew it. Why spend days crossing the Atlantic if you could do it in hours? Why spend weeks crossing the Pacific if you could do it in a couple days?

Time and again, progress has eradicated something that was used. Until this century, it was never by Legislation.

The Royal Navy of the United Kingdom. The creators of Pax Britannia in history. They resisted the switch from Sail to Steam for a long time. But once they made the first steam powered iron sided ship, everyone was going to. HMS Warrior was built, and instantly every other ship on the oceans of the world was obsolete. No legislation required it. No international agreements were hammered out. Either you had a steam powered armored ship, or you were not an ocean going sea power.

That has happened many many times in history. Progress happens like that. Warrior was replaced by other newer and improved ships. HMS Dreadnaught, and against instantly all other ships were obsolete. In another decade, Dreadnaught was obsolete by the newer standards foisted upon the world by progress and development.

Aircraft Carriers replaced the big gun battleships, and then missiles replaced bombs.

Cars? You say that Cafe Standards were just to fix a small problem. Nonsense. What CAFE standards have done is make it impossible for the people to fix their own cars. People could learn to tear down a carburetor and fix it. Nobody knows how to fix a computer component. All we can do is replace the thing. Creating more waste, hazardous waste I might add.

Electric Cars are coming, and when they are an improvement over the existing systems, you won’t need to legislate them. People will buy them because they are better. Nobody sells a computer with a paltry 8088 chip anymore. Why? Was it legislated out? No, it was superseded by Pentiums.

Legislation is used when Progress isn’t going fast enough for the impatient Progressives among us. People who don’t want to wait. People who don’t want to let the Market develop new and improved items. They want to force the progress.

The most recent increase to those CAFE standards you are so proud of. They require technology that does not yet exist. Now, it was one thing for Kennedy to call on the nation to go to the moon, and the nation to invest in that non existent technology. But to demand that private companies fund the research, out of their own pockets, while decrying the expense of their products, is ridiculous.

Ford responded to those new standards by developing a new transmission. Ten speed transmission. Ten speed. Seriously? The idea is that with those transmissions, the car can always use the lowest possible RPM’s to maintain speed. But to do so you have to have a computer talking to other computers, and that means more of that hazardous waste you don’t seem to care about.

The biggest problem with Progressives, is that they can’t agree among themselves. The Solar advocates are opposed to wind farms. Why? The wind farms kill birds and that is bad. The Wind guys think Solar folks are idiots. Solar panels only last about twenty years, and then they are nothing but landfill fodder. The Solar folks point out the fiberglass blades on the wind mills are huge problems when they wear out and point to the expense and pollution to get the items shipped to Wyoming where they are similarly landfill fodder.

Electric, Fuel Cell, Partridge in a Pear Tree. Everyone is convinced only they are right, and the rest of the world must be forced to go along with them.

Want to change the world? Develop an engine that gets a hundred miles to a gallon of gas. You won’t need legislation to force it on the people. You won’t need to mandate that the companies adapt their cars to that engine. All you will have to do is hire a lot of security to keep those pounding on your doors for an engine like that from breaking the doors down.

Why don’t we have a ton of Nuclear Reactors providing electricity to the nation? Why are we still building Natural Gas plants? And we are. Whenever one of those awesome solar plants are built, a natural gas plant is also built. You see, they can’t rely on the solar, so they need the natural gas plant to back it up, and the backup becomes the primary. Same thing with wind farms. building a wind farm? Guess what is also being built. Why not build nuclear plants and have greenhouse gas free electrical production going on?

Nah. We’re going to focus on the cars, because CAFE will save us, or something.

LOL, CAFE ratings helped save the American car industry. For some odd reason they refused to deliver what people wanted. Higher efficient cars. It's why people turned to Toyota and Honda. GM had the arrogant belief that people would simply buy that they produced.

Choosing a Corolla over a Vega was an easy choice.

Trump brags about how we are now oil independent. That's great but we don't get there without the push of higher CAFE ratings.

It was not CAFE that saved the car industry. It was the adaptation of foreign manufacturing techniques. Robots as one example. Today the bodies of the cars are welded and painted by robots. An assembly line was more efficient than a single mechanic building something. Robots are more efficient than a line of workers.

If you want proof look at the history of the English car companies. They all went belly up despite making fuel efficient cars. Now the brands are owned by foreign companies and building using those same techniques they resisted in the 1970’s. The Government did not legislate those companies into receivership. The market picked the better product.

The amount of ignorance in your replies is often difficult to grasp.

People bought Hondas and Toyotas because they were more efficient.

Manufactures argued that people weren't interested in hybrids either until Toyota built one and we found out they were.

 

[Jarlaxle]

It was not CAFE that saved the car industry. It was the adaptation of foreign manufacturing techniques. Robots as one example. Today the bodies of the cars are welded and painted by robots. An assembly line was more efficient than a single mechanic building something. Robots are more efficient than a line of workers.

If you want proof look at the history of the English car companies. They all went belly up despite making fuel efficient cars. Now the brands are owned by foreign companies and building using those same techniques they resisted in the 1970’s. The Government did not legislate those companies into receivership. The market picked the better product.

The amount of ignorance in your replies is often difficult to grasp.

Ignorance can be corrected. I suspect he is actually STUPID.

 

[SavannahMann]

CAFE standards. Taxes on cars that USD more gas. (Trucks do not lay these taxes.)

Game, set, match. You lose.

Yes, we increased CAFE standards. That didn't ban big cars like you said so what are you saying? That you miss the days of smog filled cities?

For nearly generations ships produced steam by burning coal. Then after World War One, those ships went away quickly. It wasn’t the result of legislation. It wasn’t the result of requirements. It was the result of economic reality. Oil was better than coal. A new and more reliable system was developed. The market developed a newer and better system that was embraced by the world. Military, Private, and Commercial ships all used this new system.

Oil fired ships have gone the way of the Dodo too. Why? Diesel. Newer, more reliable Diesel engines were produced. Oil became too expensive to maintain, and it went away. Again, not the result of legislation, or requirements.

You say smog filled cities. Before the cars, those cities were awash with disease and the stench of horse droppings. The horses were not legislated away. Sure we have legislation now, but it came long after the fact that the Cars had replaced the horses. Cars were better. Faster, more reliable, and without the problems associated with horses.

Progress will get there. It takes time, and patience. Those smog filled cities were not good, but they were infinitely better than the disease ridden cesspools that existed when horses were the main source of transportation.

Coal fired steam engines driving trains are gone. Oh there are a few left around more for those souls who love the romance of the things. But they are more for tourists than true use as commercial engines.

That is the truth of the world. When you develop something better, you don’t need to legislate it. It will be adapted by the world quickly. Airplanes? No one legislated that they must be used. But after World War II the days of the large Ocean Liners, like the ill fated Titanic, were numbered, and everyone knew it. Why spend days crossing the Atlantic if you could do it in hours? Why spend weeks crossing the Pacific if you could do it in a couple days?

Time and again, progress has eradicated something that was used. Until this century, it was never by Legislation.

The Royal Navy of the United Kingdom. The creators of Pax Britannia in history. They resisted the switch from Sail to Steam for a long time. But once they made the first steam powered iron sided ship, everyone was going to. HMS Warrior was built, and instantly every other ship on the oceans of the world was obsolete. No legislation required it. No international agreements were hammered out. Either you had a steam powered armored ship, or you were not an ocean going sea power.

That has happened many many times in history. Progress happens like that. Warrior was replaced by other newer and improved ships. HMS Dreadnaught, and against instantly all other ships were obsolete. In another decade, Dreadnaught was obsolete by the newer standards foisted upon the world by progress and development.

Aircraft Carriers replaced the big gun battleships, and then missiles replaced bombs.

Cars? You say that Cafe Standards were just to fix a small problem. Nonsense. What CAFE standards have done is make it impossible for the people to fix their own cars. People could learn to tear down a carburetor and fix it. Nobody knows how to fix a computer component. All we can do is replace the thing. Creating more waste, hazardous waste I might add.

Electric Cars are coming, and when they are an improvement over the existing systems, you won’t need to legislate them. People will buy them because they are better. Nobody sells a computer with a paltry 8088 chip anymore. Why? Was it legislated out? No, it was superseded by Pentiums.

Legislation is used when Progress isn’t going fast enough for the impatient Progressives among us. People who don’t want to wait. People who don’t want to let the Market develop new and improved items. They want to force the progress.

The most recent increase to those CAFE standards you are so proud of. They require technology that does not yet exist. Now, it was one thing for Kennedy to call on the nation to go to the moon, and the nation to invest in that non existent technology. But to demand that private companies fund the research, out of their own pockets, while decrying the expense of their products, is ridiculous.

Ford responded to those new standards by developing a new transmission. Ten speed transmission. Ten speed. Seriously? The idea is that with those transmissions, the car can always use the lowest possible RPM’s to maintain speed. But to do so you have to have a computer talking to other computers, and that means more of that hazardous waste you don’t seem to care about.

The biggest problem with Progressives, is that they can’t agree among themselves. The Solar advocates are opposed to wind farms. Why? The wind farms kill birds and that is bad. The Wind guys think Solar folks are idiots. Solar panels only last about twenty years, and then they are nothing but landfill fodder. The Solar folks point out the fiberglass blades on the wind mills are huge problems when they wear out and point to the expense and pollution to get the items shipped to Wyoming where they are similarly landfill fodder.

Electric, Fuel Cell, Partridge in a Pear Tree. Everyone is convinced only they are right, and the rest of the world must be forced to go along with them.

Want to change the world? Develop an engine that gets a hundred miles to a gallon of gas. You won’t need legislation to force it on the people. You won’t need to mandate that the companies adapt their cars to that engine. All you will have to do is hire a lot of security to keep those pounding on your doors for an engine like that from breaking the doors down.

Why don’t we have a ton of Nuclear Reactors providing electricity to the nation? Why are we still building Natural Gas plants? And we are. Whenever one of those awesome solar plants are built, a natural gas plant is also built. You see, they can’t rely on the solar, so they need the natural gas plant to back it up, and the backup becomes the primary. Same thing with wind farms. building a wind farm? Guess what is also being built. Why not build nuclear plants and have greenhouse gas free electrical production going on?

Nah. We’re going to focus on the cars, because CAFE will save us, or something.

LOL, CAFE ratings helped save the American car industry. For some odd reason they refused to deliver what people wanted. Higher efficient cars. It's why people turned to Toyota and Honda. GM had the arrogant belief that people would simply buy that they produced.

Choosing a Corolla over a Vega was an easy choice.

Trump brags about how we are now oil independent. That's great but we don't get there without the push of higher CAFE ratings.

It was not CAFE that saved the car industry. It was the adaptation of foreign manufacturing techniques. Robots as one example. Today the bodies of the cars are welded and painted by robots. An assembly line was more efficient than a single mechanic building something. Robots are more efficient than a line of workers.

If you want proof look at the history of the English car companies. They all went belly up despite making fuel efficient cars. Now the brands are owned by foreign companies and building using those same techniques they resisted in the 1970’s. The Government did not legislate those companies into receivership. The market picked the better product.

The amount of ignorance in your replies is often difficult to grasp.

People bought Hondas and Toyotas because they were more efficient.

Manufactures argued that people weren't interested in hybrids either until Toyota built one and we found out they were.

Ok, let me help you out since I was alive in the 1970’s and have loved cars all my life.

People started buying the VW’s, Toyota’s, and Datsun’s, and Honda’s partly because of efficiency, but mostly because the cars lasted. They lasted longer than the payments. Detroit was building disposable cars. The cars fell apart after 50k miles, if you were lucky enough to last that long. Want to seriously improve a 1975 Chevy? When you bought it and got it home, take it into your garage, and tighten up all the bolts. Chances are, they weren’t tightened.

A true example. My Father bought a 1976 Oldsmobile Station Wagon to take the kids places. This was Mom’s car. Dad decided it would replace a 1973 Impala. Dad got the one with the V-8 engine. The GM V-8 engine was of course legendary right? Well yes, and in this case, the high quality workmanship was evident. They put the wrong radiator into the car. They put the radiator for the six cylinder engine in. So the car would pretty much always run hot. Fun family vacations that way, drive for a while, and if you have to stop and then think hey I’ll turn the car off and save some gas, the sound of bubbling radiator would keep you entertained.

Of course, the wrong radiator being installed was not covered by warranty.

Dad bought a Ford Grenada to replace it a few years later. Station Wagons were history, CAFE had made them impossible to build. You see, a Station Wagon was classified as a car, while a Minivan was classified as a truck, and fell under different standards. Thanks Cafe. Ford Explorers came a little later, and soon the most prominent vehicle on the School Run was a Ford Explorer.

Detroit turned around and did what the English Car Companies did not do. They invested in technology and quality. England kept building the same sort of cars that broke down all the time, despite being very fuel efficient. I mean, Austin was putting cars out with 1.2 and 1.4 liter engines. Those are even smaller than the famous 1600 Toyota engine you say was the reason people bought them right?

Detroit invested in Robots for the Frame and Body parts that would be welded. The Robots welded. Body in White became a human no go zone. Body in White is what the Frame and Body fabrication areas are called. The Robots would build it, and the Humans would bolt on the parts they probably couldn’t screw up.

Prius? All the Prius’s put together, that is every model of the Prius. The Prius C, Station Wagon, Plug in Hybrid. All of them sell less than a single model of the competitors cars.

I could compare it to Toyota’s other models if you like. Want to bet that the Prius outsells the Corolla?

So the Prius doesn’t even outsell most of the other models of Toyota, much less models of the other cars in its “Class”. I put Class in Quotes because it is a bad comparison. It seems that when people are given a choice, of a cheaper car, or a more expensive car that is more complicated, and more likely to break down, they go cheaper. Hmm. I wonder if there is a term for that. Here is one, Marketplace. The marketplace decides. Well how does that fit in with the Progressive World View?

Because People aren’t buying the Prius and the Electric Cars in the numbers the Progressives want, we hear rumblings about how they have to raise the CAFE again, to force companies to build the Hybrid cars, because um. They’re better.

Remember what I said in the first reply I made? Want to be rich beyond Bill Gates? Build an engine that gets a hundred miles to a gallon of gas. You won’t have to legislate it into production. The Car Companies will hound you trying to get it for their cars.

But Progressives don’t really care about the Environment. Because in Europe and Asia they use a three cylinder Diesel Engine. This engine is very fuel efficient. It gets numbers that put it in direct competition with the Prius. But this engine is not allowed here in the US. Why? It doesn’t meet the standards for American Roads.

Toyota, Volkswagen, Nissan, and many other manufacturers use this sort of engine in Europe and Asia to save fuel. If saving fuel is your goal, why not allow this engine to be imported?

Progressives deal in image, not substance. They deal in style, and how things look. They are so shallow as to be literally nothing but surface. They board their Gulfstream Jet, and fly to the other side of the world to attend a concert for the Environment. Progressives always want us to live like you say, but they are never the ones to do it themselves.

By Georgia Standards, especially Rural Georgia Standards, I am a Liberal. By San Fran standards, I am a radical Right Wing Gun Toting bastard who must hate minorities. Or something.

I repeat, the Market will pick the winner, and the rest have to compete to catch up. Look at the Glock pistols. The company in Austria with no history of building firearms was created and became the new standard in firearms around the world. Ever since, every single pistol put out by every single company is going to be better than a Glock. Nobody had to legislate Glock into it’s position of dominance. They built a better product, and everyone knew it.

Now, legislation is drafted to get rid of Glocks. They are just too easy, too simple, and hold too many bullets. So we have to get them cut down to ten rounds, or less, and add complicated safety stuff that it doesn’t need, because Progressives know more about firearms, than the people who actually buy them. CAFE for Firearms in other words.

 

[pknopp]

I'm not going to quote all of that. I'm 58. 1970's Toyotas and Hondas didn't last long. They were efficient. They quickly rusted out.

My folks 68 Cutlass and 77 Caprice both lasted nearly 200,000 miles.

 

[SavannahMann]

I'm not going to quote all of that. I'm 58. 1970's Toyotas and Hondas didn't last long. They were efficient. They quickly rusted out.

My folks 68 Cutlass and 77 Caprice both lasted nearly 200,000 miles.

Right







I had a 74 Toyota Corolla that was totaled in an accident in 1986.

 

[OldLady]

We are so vulnerable.

What a colossal geo political blunder by some many stupid swamp creatures.

If China makes all of our shit, doesn’t that make us beholden to them. We can just tell them to pound sand. He rely on them.

So fucked.

TPP? So fucking stupid.

Agreed. But you have to also include the Republicans in that shit too.

I'm just waiting for the big war and the moment when all our bullets and missiles and other weapons don't work against the people who make them for us.

I didn’t exclude Pubs. Any Swamp creatures who helped get us in this bad position should be voted out. Utter bullshit.

Yep. I'd go so far as to charge them criminally.

Under no circumstance should our munitions and means of defending ourselves be provided by those who might be our enemy.

The intellectual property theft by China is off the charts, but it seems like only little Marco and POTUS care.

We fucking ship chicken to be processed in China. Insane.

We do? How does the Coronavirus do when it's frozen?

 

[g5000]

We are so vulnerable. Look, China won’t even deliver masks to the USA manufactured by American owned companies.

What a colossal geo political blunder by some many stupid swamp creatures.

If China makes all of our shit, doesn’t that make us beholden to them? We can just tell them to pound sand. He rely on them.

So fucked.

TPP? So fucking stupid.

You don't know a thing about TPP and neither does Trump. Trump is an idiot.

You clearly don't even know that China was not a part of the TPP.

Here is why it makes sense to move manufacturing to China and other countries: