Two-party death spiral is killing us

[sartre play]

I have no respect for either party, voting has become more difficult, being reduced to voting for one of two ingrained politicians who are detached from the average American they do not live or walk among us, (if they ever did) yes power & money do corrupt, but what is the cause of our growing distain with honesty? How do we allow our self's to fight each other & chose to be sheep for politicians whos true goals are fighting to get or keep personal power & gain more wealth.

 

[Rigby5]

The less political consensus, the better ... a completely stalemated and ineffectual Congress is the best of all possible outcomes.

That is sometimes true, but not always.
Sometimes there are things we do need Congress to do.
That is because the frontier is gone now, so we can be held in economic slavery if there are not protections.
Like if banks only give mortgages to slumlords and not hard working but poor individuals.
Like if insurance companies lock us out of health care access unless we sign up with them for life.

 

[Rigby5]

Amen
I am conservative to the core.
But the hive mentality of the American public demands that if someone brings up wealth concentration, they are immediately branded as a liberal. (really it is concentration of ownership that begets wealth)

Depends on what you mean?
Some people look at wealth concentration as a good thing, because it means you get to keep the fruits of your accomplishments.
But others see the dangers of those few wealthy getting a monopoly on the ability to create and control the means of production.

 

[Rigby5]

Seems some confusion about ranked voting.
The idea is that you then not only can vote FOR those you like to varying degrees, but also allows you to vote AGAINST those you dislike to varying degrees.
The point being that with ranked voting, you do not need to have 2 elections, the primary followed by a run off.
The winner can be selected from a single election, thus saving time and money, and getting a more accurate reflection of public desires.

 

[gipper]

I have no respect for either party, voting has become more difficult, being reduced to voting for one of two ingrained politicians who are detached from the average American they do not live or walk among us, (if they ever did) yes power & money do corrupt, but what is the cause of our growing distain with honesty? How do we allow our self's to fight each other & chose to be sheep for politicians whos true goals are fighting to get or keep personal power & gain more wealth.

We fight each other because we’re easily duped by the oligarchy owned media.

Cons get their news from Fox News and other so called conservative outlets, and they really believe they’re getting the truth. Libs get their news from CNN, MSNBC, and other so called liberal outlets, and they think they’re getting the truth.

There’s a war going between these two idiot factions that is purposeful and by design. The oligarchs run it, but these duped Americans are in too deep and can’t see they’re being used.

We see this stupid shit every day on this forum.

 

[WTH_Progs?]

The benefit to them of a two party system is exactly one pairing off against the other. That's how they remain in power and the reason it won't change.

When one is always at fault, for instance where the left projects gastapo, racism & anti-science, then OMG, you have to vote Demonicrat to prevent the gastapo, racism & anti-science from taking over the very fabric of our country, our moral value compasses, our democracy, blah, blah blah.

I think one way to help is remove the labels completely so that nobody is of any party. Control the number of candidates with a primary, and run the 5-10 most popular in the general, for example.

Ah shit, all of the sudden everyone is independent. So for instance your favorite team the Dementedcracks with an annual 0-16 record no longer exists. Seems that would work real well, but it will NEVER happen.

Am I a hypocrite for slighting the poor democrooks? Perhaps, but I know which of the two are worse even with no shortage of crooked & useless Repulsivcan fucks. Among other things, the Democoms are especially controlled by communist bastards.

 

[Rigby5]

If we want to get this Nation; especially our Society and Government fixed we most definitely have to start agreeing on the definitions of Right and Wrong. If not, the problems cannot be corrected.

The Government cannot fix Government Those repairs need to be made from outside the arena of Government and Public Service. From The People.

Ranked choice voting is something I cannot support. If I cannot get behind a single candidate 100%, then I don’t vote for any candidate for that position.

I disagree.
For example, one of our biggest problems is we have the largest % imprisoned in the world.
That is awful.
Not only is it expensive, but it destroys faith in police, government, and justice.
The cause of about half the incarcerations is the War on Drugs.
So is that something people can or should agree on?
No way.
That is never going to get a consensus either way.
But we do not need a consensus to decide to end the war on drugs.
That is because laws criminalizing drug use are not legal.
They violate the basic principle for legal authority, which is that legal authority comes from the defense of the rights of others.
And whether or not you dislike drugs, since they do not harm others, they can not legally be criminalized.
So even those strongly against the use of drugs should be against the War on Drugs.
The War on Drugs is about the single worst criminal act any government has ever committed.
It must be ended, and ended without any agreement on whether or not drug use is good or bad.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Depends on what you mean?
Some people look at wealth concentration as a good thing, because it means you get to keep the fruits of your accomplishments.
But others see the dangers of those few wealthy getting a monopoly on the ability to create and control the means of production.

I lined it out what I mean.
Some mergers and acquisitions are good for everyone, better products/services and lowers costs for the consumer, and higher margins for the joint company out of synergies etc.
But too much of a "good thing" is always a bad thing.
Our government since the mid 1980s has rubbers stamped far-far-far too many mergers and buy outs. There are 100s of markets where only a small handful of companies serve the entire nation. This is not good. Absolutely GREAT for the shareholders, who is the only ones our government cares for - Democrat or Republican. That kind of ownership concentration places the wealth of the industry into the hands of an extraordinary small number of individuals. As well as local ownership simply vanishes.
There are many whole books about this stuff. The result of businesses shifting from consumer to shareholder has resulted in enormous market gains, and concentrated wealth to an unprecedented degree. This has also resulted in "globalism" - whereby production owners move production to where ever the costs are the lowest. Which has resulted in mass use of child and slave labor. Modern slave labor. China and others may not be buying and selling people as slaves, but they force people to live in concrete "cells" working long-long hours at wages that are so low they can never-ever escape the classs they are born in. They are slaves. Pure and simple.
China is the worlds largest wine producer. China literally bulldozed down villages, put the people in busses by force, then forced them to work in the vineyards. If that isn't slave labor than nothing is.
And they do this for 100s of brands and products. And our government is WELL AWARE of this - both parties - but they do nothing because they bought and paid for.

China Uighurs 'moved into factory forced labour' for foreign brands

A report says China has moved minority Muslims into factory jobs, where their freedom is restricted.

www.bbc.com

 

[Jets]

We fight each other because we’re easily duped by the oligarchy owned media.

Cons get their news from Fox News and other so called conservative outlets, and they really believe they’re getting the truth. Libs get their news from CNN, MSNBC, and other so called liberal outlets, and they think they’re getting the truth.

There’s a war going between these two idiot factions that is purposeful and by design. The oligarchs run it, but these duped Americans are in too deep and can’t see they’re being used.

We see this stupid shit every day on this forum.

Tribalism is the word you are looking for.

 

[dblack]

Seems some confusion about ranked voting.
The idea is that you then not only can vote FOR those you like to varying degrees, but also allows you to vote AGAINST those you dislike to varying degrees.

Exactly. Normal plurality voting doesn't allow a voter to do anything other than vote FOR one candidate. Advocates of lesser-of-two-evils pretend they are voting against a candidate, but they're not. Nothing about their vote records who they are supposedly voting against.

 

[Mac-7]

The rest of us are the smart ones.

The 1% know it all’s?

you think too highly of yourself

 

[Mac-7]

These elected "leaders" (ha) wouldn't behave like they do if their top priorities were not fundraising and re-election. Anyone who denies that is in abject denial.

So, short term limits and publicly-funded elections. And sure, let's add on ranked-choice voting.

This doesn't change unless and until we change the system under which these people operate. As long as we willingly allow it, we're a part of the problem.

Do you really think any of your schemes will change the fact that America is deeply divided Into waring factions?

we cant function as a whole because our society is broken

 

[dblack]

Do you really think any of your schemes will change the fact that America is deeply divided Into waring factions?

we cant function as a whole because our society is broken

I think ranked choice will. Term limits and publicly funded elections would both be a mistake, in my view. Term limits denies voter preference, in the case where they are happy with their current rep. And publicly funded elections would empower the sitting government to control who runs against them.

 

[BlackSand]

For my money, the biggest problem we have in US politics today is the lack of consensus. Partisan idiocy undermines everything we do, costing us money and lives. Our system actively discourages consensus and blocks out alternatives. Time to fix it.

Ideas?

I think both ranked-choice voting (to get rid of LO2E) and multi-rep districts (to reduce gerrymandering) would help a lot. Of course the problem is that any reform has to make it through the two-party shitshow before it can be implemented. And the partisans have an vested interest in preventing that.

.

Part of the lack of consensus is actually by design.

Our Founders originally established rules, that would in essence make it more difficult to pass Legislation without broader support.
This was established to support the idea that any Legislation passed, would truly be supported by the People.
If it was impossible to pass Legislation on a whim, then the process would move down to the States,
Municipalities, or Individuals to more appropriately manage local concerns.

They didn't necessarily want Representatives in the Federal Government to run to the Capitol and start cranking out a crap-load of Legislation
that accomplished little more than serving those in power and empowering the Federal Government.

The Founders were smart, and we have managed to erode a lot of the protections they provided in attempts to get a quick,
and generally lousy, fix from the Beltway.

To our Founding Fathers, politics, legislation and government ...
Were not an exclusive right granted only to the nitwits and power mongers in the Federal Government.

It was never supposed to be easy to pass Federal Legislation ...

.​

 

[BlackSand]

I think ranked choice will. Term limits and publicly funded elections would both be a mistake, in my view. Term limits denies voter preference, in the case where they are happy with their current rep. And publicly funded elections would empower the sitting government to control who runs against them.

.

With Term Limits, it is also necessary to acknowledge that unless each new Representative brings their own staff from home ...
It doesn't really matter who the elected figurehead is.

The unelected staff is part of the rot.
Even when seats change hands, the staff just shuffles down the hall to next best gig.

They have a lot more influence regarding what is put on the desk in front of the Representative than one would think.
If you are wondering who is highlighting sections of legislation, and who is shuffling stuff to the bottom of the stack ... It's the handlers ...

.​

 

[Rigby5]

I lined it out what I mean.
Some mergers and acquisitions are good for everyone, better products/services and lowers costs for the consumer, and higher margins for the joint company out of synergies etc.
But too much of a "good thing" is always a bad thing.
Our government since the mid 1980s has rubbers stamped far-far-far too many mergers and buy outs. There are 100s of markets where only a small handful of companies serve the entire nation. This is not good. Absolutely GREAT for the shareholders, who is the only ones our government cares for - Democrat or Republican. That kind of ownership concentration places the wealth of the industry into the hands of an extraordinary small number of individuals. As well as local ownership simply vanishes.
There are many whole books about this stuff. The result of businesses shifting from consumer to shareholder has resulted in enormous market gains, and concentrated wealth to an unprecedented degree. This has also resulted in "globalism" - whereby production owners move production to where ever the costs are the lowest. Which has resulted in mass use of child and slave labor. Modern slave labor. China and others may not be buying and selling people as slaves, but they force people to live in concrete "cells" working long-long hours at wages that are so low they can never-ever escape the classs they are born in. They are slaves. Pure and simple.
China is the worlds largest wine producer. China literally bulldozed down villages, put the people in busses by force, then forced them to work in the vineyards. If that isn't slave labor than nothing is.
And they do this for 100s of brands and products. And our government is WELL AWARE of this - both parties - but they do nothing because they bought and paid for.

China Uighurs 'moved into factory forced labour' for foreign brands

A report says China has moved minority Muslims into factory jobs, where their freedom is restricted.

www.bbc.com

In general I agree with you.
There are ways you can do mergers for efficiency, without letting them become abusive.
For example, Sweden makes the board of directors be mostly government representatives and workers.

 

[Flash]

We need two parties:

1. The Big Government Party.

2. The Fiscally Responsible Party

We already have two branches of the Party #1 but yet to see a #2.

 

[gipper]

.

Part of the lack of consensus is actually by design.

Our Founders originally established rules, that would in essence make it more difficult to pass Legislation without broader support.
This was established to support the idea that any Legislation passed, would truly be supported by the People.
If it was impossible to pass Legislation on a whim, then the process would move down to the States,
Municipalities, or Individuals to more appropriately manage local concerns.

They didn't necessarily want Representatives in the Federal Government to run to the Capitol and start cranking out a crap-load of Legislation
that accomplished little more than serving those in power and empowering the Federal Government.

The Founders were smart, and we have managed to erode a lot of the protections they provided in attempts to get a quick,
and generally lousy, fix from the Beltway.

To our Founding Fathers, politics, legislation and government ...
Were not an exclusive right granted only to the nitwits and power mongers in the Federal Government.

It was never supposed to be easy to pass Federal Legislation ...

.​

Now we have massive bills passed by Congress that they haven’t read, that we’re authored by lobbyists representing the interests of big corporations.

We’ve come a long way baby!

 

[BlackSand]

Now we have massive bills passed by Congress that they haven’t read, that we’re authored by lobbyists representing the interests of big corporations.

We’ve come a long way baby!

.

What we have now is a Banana Republic run by a bunch of buffoons and supported by an equally retarded mass of useless motherfuckers.
Pardon my language, but that's the mildest description I could come up with and stay out of Gitmo.

.​

 

[sparky]

I live in a Black/White and Good/Evil world

lotta grey hats out there.....

You most likely are NEVER going to get representatives you agree with perfectly, so the best you can hope for is one you can at least tolerate.

what if the majority consistently disagrees?

Of course government can fix government.

fat chance....

We fight each other because we’re easily duped by the oligarchy owned media.

sorely evident.....

There’s a war going between these two idiot factions that is purposeful and by design.

Part of the lack of consensus is actually by design.

yes, if you think on it, what other choice do they have to validate their existence?

~S~