THREE Hops: The NSA and you, your friends, their friends etc

[IlarMeilyr]

You know me. I hate stirring a pot or kicking a hornet's nest or anything -- but ...

I applaud the Congressional SCRUTINY of what the NSA is doing.

I am a little less thrilled that they don't seem to grasp the import of some of the testimony when it gets presented to them. (See the article cited below).

The NSA Admits It Analyzes More People's Data Than Previously Revealed - Philip Bump - The Atlantic Wire

If they consider some asshole like, say noman, a potential threat to America or its people, under some circumstances, they might look at his telephone metadata. Then they look for patters, apparently, so they see who he is in contact with and so they proceed to assess THEIR metadata. THEN, they see the friends of his friends, so to speak, and dig into THEIR metadata.

BUT

now we seem to be finding out that they go that next step. Not you and one hop to your friends. Not just two hops to the friends of your friends. But, now, THREE HOPS to the friends of the friends of your friends. That's some very quick mathematical progression. It gets to be a huge number of people in a very short number of hops.

(It's a current headline at Drudge.)

I believe the universe consists of less than 5 hops. (See article.) Are we really ok with the NSA (even using metadata) going by this kind of a factor?

If noman is a suspected terrorist jerk-off, by using this process, pretty soon almost all of us are caught up in the investigative web. This is why I maintain that while the PATRIOT ACT and NSA surveillance programs are necessary, they MUST be subject to strict oversight, checks, balances and scrutiny both by Congress and by the Judicial Branch.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

yeah, strict scrutiny and accountablilty are the hall marks of government.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

yeah, strict scrutiny and accountablilty are the hall marks of government.

That's not a reason to accept things as they are.

 

[flacaltenn]

Thanks for bumping this topic above the chatter of the Zimmerman trial..
It's distressing to see how easy it is for the media to obscure VITAL discussions about violating our
Constitutional rights..

Most people believe that these systems can function just as open-loop searches. Meaning it's like accessing the address books of your friends and then their friends. But these data mining systems are TRAINED to recognize suspicious connections. That's why NSA is involved and the job wasn't just subcontracted to Google..

So to train a machine to recognize suspicious connections, you need a training set consisting of both "a few" KNOWN suspicious connections and a whole bunch of "normal" ones. Not only is this data being used in operational mode, but I'm dam certain your data is being used to train and assess the performance of the machine intelligience.

They not only have the contact tree of associations, but they also Time, duration, and cell tower info.
That way --- there are more ways to tie these contacts together.

THe faulty excuse has always been that they only use the database when there is a foreign end to the call.. That doesn't fly because NSA already has authority to intercept EVERY foreign call coming in.

They need to get around the terrorist use of pigeons and messengers. Folks who have deep cover and can be used as go-betweens. MOST of these are gonna be US citizens.. The butcher in the Halal meat shop for instance. Or some Chechnyen brothers in Boston.. And there's the prob.. That WHY they have to go so deep to find real terrorist assets hidden here in the states.

We can't let them FISH for these contacts.. They need to do it WITHOUT combing thru millions of innocent communications and associations..

 

[TakeAStepBack]

yeah, strict scrutiny and accountablilty are the hall marks of government.

That's not a reason to accept things as they are.

that was my best condescending sarcasm.

The government is wasteful, corrupt and the most unaccountable entity known to man. Asking that they be granted the authority to use these measures IF ONLY they are accountable and scrutinized, is the same argument used by LOLberals about welfare programs that "just need to be managed better" and "held to stricter accountability".

It sounds great on paper, but in reality it never happens.

Ever.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

Thanks for bumping this topic above the chatter of the Zimmerman trial..
It's distressing to see how easy it is for the media to obscure VITAL discussions about violating our
Constitutional rights..

Most people believe that these systems can function just as open-loop searches. Meaning it's like accessing the address books of your friends and then their friends. But these data mining systems are TRAINED to recognize suspicious connections. That's why NSA is involved and the job wasn't just subcontracted to Google..

So to train a machine to recognize suspicious connections, you need a training set consisting of both "a few" KNOWN suspicious connections and a whole bunch of "normal" ones. Not only is this data being used in operational mode, but I'm dam certain your data is being used to train and assess the performance of the machine intelligience.

They not only have the contact tree of associations, but they also Time, duration, and cell tower info.
That way --- there are more ways to tie these contacts together.

THe faulty excuse has always been that they only use the database when there is a foreign end to the call.. That doesn't fly because NSA already has authority to intercept EVERY foreign call coming in.

They need to get around the terrorist use of pigeons and messengers. Folks who have deep cover and can be used as go-betweens. MOST of these are gonna be US citizens.. The butcher in the Halal meat shop for instance. Or some Chechnyen brothers in Boston.. And there's the prob.. That WHY they have to go so deep to find real terrorist assets hidden here in the states.

We can't let them FISH for these contacts.. They need to do it WITHOUT combing thru millions of innocent communications and associations..

Wow. A responsive post that was both informative and interesting.

Thank you.

I have only the most limited information on how these guys use the metadata. I deem it a hopeful sign that they use it in part to train themselves and the newbies on how to conduct a meaningful investigation (in part) as well as (in part) using it to "train" their computers and their programs.

I have been and continue to be a supporter of the NSA Surveillance program as well as a supporter of The USA PATRIOT Act. However, the ridicule I get from certain quarters notwithstanding, I stand by my position which is that the powers inherent in these laws is really a bit too full and it's all too broad to be entrusted to a Bush Administration or an Obama Administration or ANY Administration alone. I firmly maintain that it MUST be subjected to massive oversight and scrutiny. Checks and balances on hyper drive.

Anyway, thanks again for your post. Rep on its way. (Forget the check in the mail. I am far too cheap!)

 

[IlarMeilyr]

yeah, strict scrutiny and accountablilty are the hall marks of government.

That's not a reason to accept things as they are.

that was my best condescending sarcasm.

The government is wasteful, corrupt and the most unaccountable entity known to man. Asking that they be granted the authority to use these measures IF ONLY they are accountable and scrutinized, is the same argument used by LOLberals about welfare programs that "just need to be managed better" and "held to stricter accountability".

It sounds great on paper, but in reality it never happens.

Ever.

"that was my best condescending sarcasm." Yeah. No shit. You are not exactly all that clever in the rhetoric department.

But putting your sophistry to the side, let's focus on what we should do.

The alternative to having the NSA Surveillance Program and the USA PATRIOT Act is to either deny the government the ability to conduct the kind of investigations which I maintain they must be able to perform -- OR -- to permit the program and demand the checks and balances.

It is a Herculean task.

So what?

The alternative is to shrug our shoulders high and say "we can't do shit about the threats."

Fuck that. It's not a wise course and it isn't even true.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

There can't be accountability when everything is classified.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

There can't be accountability when everything is classified.

False.

Yes there can be.

You can't "classify" stuff out of the view of the ones who authorize it and who do the checks and balances thang.

 

[flacaltenn]

Thanks for bumping this topic above the chatter of the Zimmerman trial..
It's distressing to see how easy it is for the media to obscure VITAL discussions about violating our
Constitutional rights..

Most people believe that these systems can function just as open-loop searches. Meaning it's like accessing the address books of your friends and then their friends. But these data mining systems are TRAINED to recognize suspicious connections. That's why NSA is involved and the job wasn't just subcontracted to Google..

So to train a machine to recognize suspicious connections, you need a training set consisting of both "a few" KNOWN suspicious connections and a whole bunch of "normal" ones. Not only is this data being used in operational mode, but I'm dam certain your data is being used to train and assess the performance of the machine intelligience.

They not only have the contact tree of associations, but they also Time, duration, and cell tower info.
That way --- there are more ways to tie these contacts together.

THe faulty excuse has always been that they only use the database when there is a foreign end to the call.. That doesn't fly because NSA already has authority to intercept EVERY foreign call coming in.

They need to get around the terrorist use of pigeons and messengers. Folks who have deep cover and can be used as go-betweens. MOST of these are gonna be US citizens.. The butcher in the Halal meat shop for instance. Or some Chechnyen brothers in Boston.. And there's the prob.. That WHY they have to go so deep to find real terrorist assets hidden here in the states.

We can't let them FISH for these contacts.. They need to do it WITHOUT combing thru millions of innocent communications and associations..

Wow. A responsive post that was both informative and interesting.

Thank you.

I have only the most limited information on how these guys use the metadata. I deem it a hopeful sign that they use it in part to train themselves and the newbies on how to conduct a meaningful investigation (in part) as well as (in part) using it to "train" their computers and their programs.

I have been and continue to be a supporter of the NSA Surveillance program as well as a supporter of The USA PATRIOT Act. However, the ridicule I get from certain quarters notwithstanding, I stand by my position which is that the powers inherent in these laws is really a bit too full and it's all too broad to be entrusted to a Bush Administration or an Obama Administration or ANY Administration alone. I firmly maintain that it MUST be subjected to massive oversight and scrutiny. Checks and balances on hyper drive.

Anyway, thanks again for your post. Rep on its way. (Forget the check in the mail. I am far too cheap!)

I also am a HUGE FAN of NSA.. Have some old history with them.. THey are one of the very few bright spots of competence and efficiency in this Govt...

Forever ----- they have been PROHIBITED from participating in domestic operations. BECAUSE of their competence and abilities. Whoever let the dog off the leash --- needs to go home...

However -- i've got problems with the very loose language in the Patriot Act.. Want to see it STRONGLY revised. Especially when we define pressure cookers as WMDs and elementary school kids as "performing terrorist acts". The rhetoric and reality gap is just dam big..

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

There can't be accountability when everything is classified.

False.

Yes there can be.

You can't "classify" stuff out of the view of the ones who authorize it and who do the checks and balances thang.

Well, that's exactly what happened, for starters. Secondly, how can the people hold the administration accountable for this spying through their elected representatives when they don't know that it's going on, and the people running for these offices can't discuss their positions on these important issues? I can't make an informed decision if everything is classified.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

Thanks for bumping this topic above the chatter of the Zimmerman trial..
It's distressing to see how easy it is for the media to obscure VITAL discussions about violating our
Constitutional rights..

Most people believe that these systems can function just as open-loop searches. Meaning it's like accessing the address books of your friends and then their friends. But these data mining systems are TRAINED to recognize suspicious connections. That's why NSA is involved and the job wasn't just subcontracted to Google..

So to train a machine to recognize suspicious connections, you need a training set consisting of both "a few" KNOWN suspicious connections and a whole bunch of "normal" ones. Not only is this data being used in operational mode, but I'm dam certain your data is being used to train and assess the performance of the machine intelligience.

They not only have the contact tree of associations, but they also Time, duration, and cell tower info.
That way --- there are more ways to tie these contacts together.

THe faulty excuse has always been that they only use the database when there is a foreign end to the call.. That doesn't fly because NSA already has authority to intercept EVERY foreign call coming in.

They need to get around the terrorist use of pigeons and messengers. Folks who have deep cover and can be used as go-betweens. MOST of these are gonna be US citizens.. The butcher in the Halal meat shop for instance. Or some Chechnyen brothers in Boston.. And there's the prob.. That WHY they have to go so deep to find real terrorist assets hidden here in the states.

We can't let them FISH for these contacts.. They need to do it WITHOUT combing thru millions of innocent communications and associations..

Wow. A responsive post that was both informative and interesting.

Thank you.

I have only the most limited information on how these guys use the metadata. I deem it a hopeful sign that they use it in part to train themselves and the newbies on how to conduct a meaningful investigation (in part) as well as (in part) using it to "train" their computers and their programs.

I have been and continue to be a supporter of the NSA Surveillance program as well as a supporter of The USA PATRIOT Act. However, the ridicule I get from certain quarters notwithstanding, I stand by my position which is that the powers inherent in these laws is really a bit too full and it's all too broad to be entrusted to a Bush Administration or an Obama Administration or ANY Administration alone. I firmly maintain that it MUST be subjected to massive oversight and scrutiny. Checks and balances on hyper drive.

Anyway, thanks again for your post. Rep on its way. (Forget the check in the mail. I am far too cheap!)

I also am a HUGE FAN of NSA.. Have some old history with them.. THey are one of the very few bright spots of competence and efficiency in this Govt...

Forever ----- they have been PROHIBITED from participating in domestic operations. BECAUSE of their competence and abilities. Whoever let the dog off the leash --- needs to go home...

However -- i've got problems with the very loose language in the Patriot Act.. Want to see it STRONGLY revised. Especially when we define pressure cookers as WMDs and elementary school kids as "performing terrorist acts". The rhetoric and reality gap is just dam big..

I have no problem with taking a good hard look at any provision of the USA PATRIOT Act (as amended) for the kind of review you seem to seek.

That does not go so far as throwing out the baby with the bathwater, however.

The law itself, if in need of serious adjustment and fine tuning, is still needed and I remain a supporter.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

There can't be accountability when everything is classified.

False.

Yes there can be.

You can't "classify" stuff out of the view of the ones who authorize it and who do the checks and balances thang.

Well, that's exactly what happened, for starters. Secondly, how can the people hold the administration accountable for this spying through their elected representatives when they don't know that it's going on, and the people running for these offices can't discuss their positions on these important issues? I can't make an informed decision if everything is classified.

Huh?

WHAT is it that you now claim is "exactly" what happened? If you are CLAIMING that anybody in the Administration of either George W. Bush or Barack Obama "classified" anything out of the line of sight of the Congressional oversight committees (like national security and intelligence) then I say "prove it," because that's bullshit.

The PEOPLE, Kev, act THROUGH their representatives and that's how the ADMIN is kept accountable. I don't care if the Congressional hearings are themselves secretive. In fact, they probably SHOULD be. And there are also REPORTING requirements built into the law.

YOU aren't asked to make any informed decisions on it. YOU are not required to be in that loop and it would be beyond absurd to claim that YOU ought to be. Checks and balances are not something put to the public vote. It's not a fucking referendum. These are national security and intelligence matters for which your personal knowledge is NOT required. We do not live in a "democracy." We live in a Representative Republic.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

False.

Yes there can be.

You can't "classify" stuff out of the view of the ones who authorize it and who do the checks and balances thang.

Well, that's exactly what happened, for starters. Secondly, how can the people hold the administration accountable for this spying through their elected representatives when they don't know that it's going on, and the people running for these offices can't discuss their positions on these important issues? I can't make an informed decision if everything is classified.

Huh?

WHAT is it that you now claim is "exactly" what happened? If you are CLAIMING that anybody in the Administration of either George W. Bush or Barack Obama "classified" anything out of the line of sight of the Congressional oversight committees (like national security and intelligence) then I say "prove it," because that's bullshit.

The PEOPLE, Kev, act THROUGH their representatives and that's how the ADMIN is kept accountable. I don't care if the Congressional hearings are themselves secretive. In fact, they probably SHOULD be. And there are also REPORTING requirements built into the law.

YOU aren't asked to make any informed decisions on it. YOU are not required to be in that loop and it would be beyond absurd to claim that YOU ought to be. Checks and balances are not something put to the public vote. It's not a fucking referendum. These are national security and intelligence matters for which your personal knowledge is NOT required. We do not live in a "democracy." We live in a Representative Republic.

Well, apparently the congressional oversight committee made some seriousl oversights while conducting oversight.

The idea that "the law needs to be tweeked" is the same story with every government action out there, and only fuels more growth of govt..which tend to end in a lot less tweeking and a lot more waste.

Every program that the government undertakes is always met with the it need reform, it needs some tweeking, it needs this, it needs that.

None of it ever happens. We might as well just go ahead and let them do whatever they want, our liberties be damned with that calculation.

SS? Needs some tweeking

Welfare? Needs some reform.

GSEs? Well, we need to provide additional oversight...

the list is absolutely endless.....

 

[flacaltenn]

There can't be accountability when everything is classified.

False.

Yes there can be.

You can't "classify" stuff out of the view of the ones who authorize it and who do the checks and balances thang.

Well, that's exactly what happened, for starters. Secondly, how can the people hold the administration accountable for this spying through their elected representatives when they don't know that it's going on, and the people running for these offices can't discuss their positions on these important issues? I can't make an informed decision if everything is classified.

That's a clear guide to getting some relief here.. There's a massive fallacy that the FISA court puts these decisions under "judicial review".. Those judges are as much accountable to the Judicial System as the judges in the Westminister Dog Show are..

Even IF they are impartial and not acting and abetting the illegalities, the subject matter is SO TECHNICALLY COMPLEX that neither they OR the Congress even understands it.. The judges cannot make a call for a tech consult -- they must rely on the BS that they get fed.

At the VERY LEAST --- there ought to be an adequate staff of TRAINED technologists that they can access for guidance. From there -- we go to release of MORE information about the National Sec. Memos that they issue to companies and entitities for information..

Right now -- if my company GETS one of those, I can't even acknowledge what I've recieved. And there is NO appeal or judicial review of the orders or the warrants..

When Obama or CongressCritters tell you how good the oversight and restraints are -- you need to laugh in their lying faces...

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

False.

Yes there can be.

You can't "classify" stuff out of the view of the ones who authorize it and who do the checks and balances thang.

Well, that's exactly what happened, for starters. Secondly, how can the people hold the administration accountable for this spying through their elected representatives when they don't know that it's going on, and the people running for these offices can't discuss their positions on these important issues? I can't make an informed decision if everything is classified.

Huh?

WHAT is it that you now claim is "exactly" what happened? If you are CLAIMING that anybody in the Administration of either George W. Bush or Barack Obama "classified" anything out of the line of sight of the Congressional oversight committees (like national security and intelligence) then I say "prove it," because that's bullshit.

The PEOPLE, Kev, act THROUGH their representatives and that's how the ADMIN is kept accountable. I don't care if the Congressional hearings are themselves secretive. In fact, they probably SHOULD be. And there are also REPORTING requirements built into the law.

YOU aren't asked to make any informed decisions on it. YOU are not required to be in that loop and it would be beyond absurd to claim that YOU ought to be. Checks and balances are not something put to the public vote. It's not a fucking referendum. These are national security and intelligence matters for which your personal knowledge is NOT required. We do not live in a "democracy." We live in a Representative Republic.

Most of Congress had no idea what was going on. That means there's no accountability. And in a representative republic I can't make an informed decision on who I'd like to represent me if I don't know what's going on. I'm not saying I need every single detail, but there's no reason that the information that has come out in the press as of now regarding these programs needed to be classified other than to protect the administration from public scrutiny.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

Well, that's exactly what happened, for starters. Secondly, how can the people hold the administration accountable for this spying through their elected representatives when they don't know that it's going on, and the people running for these offices can't discuss their positions on these important issues? I can't make an informed decision if everything is classified.

Huh?

WHAT is it that you now claim is "exactly" what happened? If you are CLAIMING that anybody in the Administration of either George W. Bush or Barack Obama "classified" anything out of the line of sight of the Congressional oversight committees (like national security and intelligence) then I say "prove it," because that's bullshit.

The PEOPLE, Kev, act THROUGH their representatives and that's how the ADMIN is kept accountable. I don't care if the Congressional hearings are themselves secretive. In fact, they probably SHOULD be. And there are also REPORTING requirements built into the law.

YOU aren't asked to make any informed decisions on it. YOU are not required to be in that loop and it would be beyond absurd to claim that YOU ought to be. Checks and balances are not something put to the public vote. It's not a fucking referendum. These are national security and intelligence matters for which your personal knowledge is NOT required. We do not live in a "democracy." We live in a Representative Republic.

Well, apparently the congressional oversight committee made some seriousl oversights while conducting oversight.

The idea that "the law needs to be tweeked" is the same story with every government action out there, and only fuels more growth of govt..which tend to end in a lot less tweeking and a lot more waste.

Every program that the government undertakes is always met with the it need reform, it needs some tweeking, it needs this, it needs that.

None of it ever happens. We might as well just go ahead and let them do whatever they want, our liberties be damned with that calculation.

SS? Needs some tweeking

Welfare? Needs some reform.

GSEs? Well, we need to provide additional oversight...

the list is absolutely endless.....

Then we need Congress critters who are brighter and more dedicated and more determined. The "criticism" that Congress tends to be kind of sloppy and bulky and inept is still not a sound basis to toss out the baby with the bathwater.

The answer is still not found in jettisoning the tools provided for by the NSA program and the USA PATRIOT Act. The proper answer is still found in oversight.

And guess what? It may not be working perfectly. But it is working to some extent. Congress does get reports as required. They do hold their hearings. They may miss the important nuances from time to time, but as in THIS discussion, the feedback comes fast and furious. And then, they get to go back over the things they had missed earlier. And the COURTS still get to do some judicial review, too. If Congressional oversight shows that the FISA court (for example) has become a bit too much of a mere rubber stamp, then THAT too can be attended to.

Nobody ever said that any of this would be easy or quick.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

Huh?

WHAT is it that you now claim is "exactly" what happened? If you are CLAIMING that anybody in the Administration of either George W. Bush or Barack Obama "classified" anything out of the line of sight of the Congressional oversight committees (like national security and intelligence) then I say "prove it," because that's bullshit.

The PEOPLE, Kev, act THROUGH their representatives and that's how the ADMIN is kept accountable. I don't care if the Congressional hearings are themselves secretive. In fact, they probably SHOULD be. And there are also REPORTING requirements built into the law.

YOU aren't asked to make any informed decisions on it. YOU are not required to be in that loop and it would be beyond absurd to claim that YOU ought to be. Checks and balances are not something put to the public vote. It's not a fucking referendum. These are national security and intelligence matters for which your personal knowledge is NOT required. We do not live in a "democracy." We live in a Representative Republic.

Well, apparently the congressional oversight committee made some seriousl oversights while conducting oversight.

The idea that "the law needs to be tweeked" is the same story with every government action out there, and only fuels more growth of govt..which tend to end in a lot less tweeking and a lot more waste.

Every program that the government undertakes is always met with the it need reform, it needs some tweeking, it needs this, it needs that.

None of it ever happens. We might as well just go ahead and let them do whatever they want, our liberties be damned with that calculation.

SS? Needs some tweeking

Welfare? Needs some reform.

GSEs? Well, we need to provide additional oversight...

the list is absolutely endless.....

Then we need Congress critters who are brighter and more dedicated and more determined. The "criticism" that Congress tends to be kind of sloppy and bulky and inept is still not a sound basis to toss out the baby with the bathwater. The answer is still not found in jettisoning the tools provided for by the NSA program and the USA PATRIOT Act. The proper answer is still found in oversight.

And guess what? It may not be working perfectly. But it is working to some extent. Congress does get reports as required. They do hold their hearings. They may miss the important nuances from time to time, but as in THIS discussion, the feedback comes fast and furious. And then, they get to go back over the things they had missed earlier. And the COURTS still get to do some judicial review, too. If Congressional oversight shows that the FISA court (for example) has become a bit too much of a mere rubber stamp, then THAT too can be attended to.

Nobody ever said that any of this would be easy or quick.

So, we just need to tweek the tweekers in order to repair the problem. The hole gets deeper.

I'm no fan of any of this and that's the last I'll say so we can ditch the circle.

Anyway, good topic amongst a lot of BS on the board.

 

[flacaltenn]

As an example of how little we know...

1) Is the NSA installing equipment at Google, Verizon, ATT, or Yahoo? What about housing NSA employees on site at those companies to arrange and condition the taps?

2) Why do they need that new MONSTROUS multi-acre facility if they are not storing and archiving MASSIVE amounts of data?

3) Do the FISA court members have any particular expertise in communication intelligience, machine intelligience or data mining? If not --- what qualifies them to determine when the bounds are overstepped?

 

[flacaltenn]

Huh?

WHAT is it that you now claim is "exactly" what happened? If you are CLAIMING that anybody in the Administration of either George W. Bush or Barack Obama "classified" anything out of the line of sight of the Congressional oversight committees (like national security and intelligence) then I say "prove it," because that's bullshit.

The PEOPLE, Kev, act THROUGH their representatives and that's how the ADMIN is kept accountable. I don't care if the Congressional hearings are themselves secretive. In fact, they probably SHOULD be. And there are also REPORTING requirements built into the law.

YOU aren't asked to make any informed decisions on it. YOU are not required to be in that loop and it would be beyond absurd to claim that YOU ought to be. Checks and balances are not something put to the public vote. It's not a fucking referendum. These are national security and intelligence matters for which your personal knowledge is NOT required. We do not live in a "democracy." We live in a Representative Republic.

Well, apparently the congressional oversight committee made some seriousl oversights while conducting oversight.

The idea that "the law needs to be tweeked" is the same story with every government action out there, and only fuels more growth of govt..which tend to end in a lot less tweeking and a lot more waste.

Every program that the government undertakes is always met with the it need reform, it needs some tweeking, it needs this, it needs that.

None of it ever happens. We might as well just go ahead and let them do whatever they want, our liberties be damned with that calculation.

SS? Needs some tweeking

Welfare? Needs some reform.

GSEs? Well, we need to provide additional oversight...

the list is absolutely endless.....

Then we need Congress critters who are brighter and more dedicated and more determined. The "criticism" that Congress tends to be kind of sloppy and bulky and inept is still not a sound basis to toss out the baby with the bathwater.

The answer is still not found in jettisoning the tools provided for by the NSA program and the USA PATRIOT Act. The proper answer is still found in oversight.

And guess what? It may not be working perfectly. But it is working to some extent. Congress does get reports as required. They do hold their hearings. They may miss the important nuances from time to time, but as in THIS discussion, the feedback comes fast and furious. And then, they get to go back over the things they had missed earlier. And the COURTS still get to do some judicial review, too. If Congressional oversight shows that the FISA court (for example) has become a bit too much of a mere rubber stamp, then THAT too can be attended to.

Nobody ever said that any of this would be easy or quick.

Dianne Feinstein --- "Don't worry... It's only metadata"... You mean THAT KIND of oversight? What's her committee job again man?