Then they hypocritically cry "civilians" and "genocide[sic]"

[Shusha]

Kind of difficult to build a state when your territory is being gobbled up and one of the preconditions for statehood is to be OK and compliant with that. The Israeli government uses the statelessness of the Palestinians and their corresponding lack of rights to inhibit the formation of a Palestinian state.

No, it isn't hard. First, you adopt a policy of non-violence and negotiation. Then, you recognize where, exactly, "your" State is and what it's territorial boundaries actually are. Then you decide how you are going to negotiate for more and better for the prosperity of both States.

See, the problem is that neither Gaza, nor the "West Bank" governments actually have the ability to govern a legitimate State. They want more territory, without being able to control the territory they actually have. Israel is willing to play the "where would you like the borders to be?" game. Israel just needs a partner.

 

[candycorn]

This has been done before. UN observers between Arab and Jewish territories ran for the hills in 1948 when Arab forces attacked the new state.

More than 1,000 armed UN troops have been in The Golan Heights since 1974 have done nothing to stop Hezbollah attacks on Jews in the region.

The same for UN observers in Jerusalem have sat by and watched as hundreds of Jewish citizens were slaughtered by suicide bombers and other armed attacks.

The UN is a paper kitten (not even close to a tiger) who does nothing to keep Jews (or Arabs) safe.

They tried it in Beirut in 1982 as I recall as well. Yeah...that was a huge success (sarcasm).

 

[Coyote]

Incorrect. Not occupied.

Incorrect. Not occupied.

In order to answer that question, you would have to define the legal territories and boundaries that existed in 1948, and know the documents which created those boundaries.

State of Jordan. State of Egypt. State of Israel. State of Palestine. When was each created? What were the boundaries? What document or customary law supports this?

Between 1948 and 1966 who controlled Gaza? Did the controlling State have a legal claim to those territories? If the controlling State (occupier) did NOT have a legal claim to those territories, who did?

Work the same formula for Judea and Samaria.

Israel's boundaries when it was established as a state did not include the West Bank and Gaza nor do its current declared legal boundaries. Israel has never included those territories as part of it's state. Even the Israeli courts recognize it as occuppied territory. It's non-Israeli native population either lives under an Israeli military justice system or is subject to it. They lack the protections and rights of Israeli citizens living in the same territory. They are subject to arrest and indefinate detention with out charges or trial. It is administered under two systems of justice.

 

[Coyote]

There. Is. No. Moral. Equivalence. Between. This. And. October 7. Stop trying to find one. While, I wholeheartedly believe that any violence committed by Israeli civilians on innocents is abhorrent, inexcusable, and should be met with the full force of the law, this is not the same as the existential threat and sheer brutality of the attack committed by Hamas. Stop.

Totally disagree and it isn't making an equivalence, ignoring this issue is a big reason for the increase in violence now occurring in the West Bank and is constantly excused or applauded.

 

[rylah]

 

[Lisa558]

Which is nonsense. In the 56 years since Israel captured Judea and Samria, the Israeli settlements still only occupy 3.6% of the land. The only thing keeping the Palestinians from moving forward is their refusal to abandon their ambition to destroy Israe.

Also, let’s keep in mind that the Arabs ALREADY have 99% of the land mass in the Middle East, and from which they drove the Jews out - stealing their homes and property. So there’s 1% (less actually) for Israel, and Palestinians want to drive the Jews out of there, as well, and eliminate the Jewish state.

 

[Lisa558]

These are sick, sick people - and the anti-Israel contingent acts as if they’re all harmless and innocent.

 

[MJB12741]

The Gazans have been given more than FIVE BILLION dollars in the last decade. They ignore the strings on it and instead of using it to better their country, they use it to build facilities to attack Israel.

And the Palestinians blame Israel instead of Hamas.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Israel's boundaries when it was established as a state did not include the West Bank and Gaza nor do its current declared legal boundaries. Israel has never included those territories as part of it's state. Even the Israeli courts recognize it as occuppied territory. It's non-Israeli native population either lives under an Israeli military justice system or is subject to it. They lack the protections and rights of Israeli citizens living in the same territory. They are subject to arrest and indefinate detention with out charges or trial. It is administered under two systems of justice.

Except under the original boundaries of the State of Israel set by the League of Nations. they did. The League set Jordan as the Arab/Muslim country made up of part of historical Palestine and Israel as the Jewish part. The Arabs/Muslims conquered parts of that land in 1948 and integrated it into Egypt and Jordan until the Israelis liberated it int he 1976 and Yom Kippur wars.

 

[Shusha]

Israel's boundaries when it was established as a state did not include the West Bank and Gaza nor do its current declared legal boundaries.

This is incorrect. There is no international boundary between Israel and Judea and Samaria nor between Israel and Gaza. Never has been. If you think you know where one is, please provide the date the boundaries were established, which States were Parties to the Treaty and which document delineated that territory. You should also provide the date, boundary, and document for the borders with Jordan and Egypt.

Israel has never included those territories as part of it's state.

Well, she's never had a chance to.

It's non-Israeli native population either lives under an Israeli military justice system or is subject to it. They lack the protections and rights of Israeli citizens living in the same territory. They are subject to arrest and indefinate detention with out charges or trial. It is administered under two systems of justice.

Yes. Palestine has administrative and policing control over Area A and administrative control over Area B. Israel has administrative and policing control over Area C and policing control over Area B. This was established by mutual agreement between the State of Israel and the State of Palestine. Mutual agreements between States in the form of Agreements and Treaties are how these things are done. They are rock-solid in international law.

The reason Israel treats non-citizen residents of Israel differently is because they are not Israeli citizens. Israel CAN NOT treat residents of Israel living in Area C as citizens. That would make them citizens of Israel. That would be annexation. That is what you are arguing AGAINST. You can't simultaneously argue that Israel occupies that territory and then complain that Israel is not acting as though she is sovereign over the territory. It's one or the other.

 

[Shusha]

Totally disagree and it isn't making an equivalence, ignoring this issue is a big reason for the increase in violence now occurring in the West Bank and is constantly excused or applauded.

No one is ignoring the issue of increased violence in Judea and Samaria. I acknowledged and condemned violence committed against innocents perpetrated by Israelis. I also acknowledge that Israelis in Judea and Samaria are increasingly armed (understandably so). But there is no moral equivalency between this and what happened on October 7.

 

[Coyote]

This is incorrect. There is no international boundary between Israel and Judea and Samaria nor between Israel and Gaza. Never has been. If you think you know where one is, please provide the date the boundaries were established, which States were Parties to the Treaty and which document delineated that territory. You should also provide the date, boundary, and document for the borders with Jordan and Egypt.

Yet Israel does not and has not claimed it or annexed it in what 70 years? What about the borders drawn in the 1949 Armistace agreement?

Well, she's never had a chance to.

It had inhabitants already.

Yes. Palestine has administrative and policing control over Area A and administrative control over Area B. Israel has administrative and policing control over Area C and policing control over Area B. This was established by mutual agreement between the State of Israel and the State of Palestine. Mutual agreements between States in the form of Agreements and Treaties are how these things are done. They are rock-solid in international law.

The reason Israel treats non-citizen residents of Israel differently is because they are not Israeli citizens. Israel CAN NOT treat residents of Israel living in Area C as citizens. That would make them citizens of Israel.

You stated that this was not occupied territory, now you are saying it is? If that is the case then Israeli civil law (not military law, which is far harsher and strips away many legal rights we take granted) should apply. You can’t have it both ways.

US law, for example, applies to all within the US, whether citizen or not and they all face the same justice system.

That would be annexation. That is what you are arguing AGAINST. You can't simultaneously argue that Israel occupies that territory and then complain that Israel is not acting as though she is sovereign over the territory. It's one or the other.

Yes. It IS one or the other.

Maybe Israel should annex it and extend citizenship to ALL within the territory who want it. OR ALL those living in those occupied territories should live under the same justice system, not two different and vastly unequal ones.

 

[Coyote]

No one is ignoring the issue of increased violence in Judea and Samaria. I acknowledged and condemned violence committed against innocents perpetrated by Israelis.

I respectfully disagree. You condemn it, but few others do and certainly not those in charge in the Israeli government who encourage and support it.

I also acknowledge that Israelis in Judea and Samaria are increasingly armed (understandably so).

Are Palestinian civilians allowed to be armed? I don’t think so. Makes them vulnerable to settler violence (which is not new) since the IDF does little to protect them.

But there is no moral equivalency between this and what happened on October 7.

Agree, but that wasn’t the point. These are isolated incidents but part of a long term pattern and provokes more violence.

 

[Shusha]

Yet Israel does not and has not claimed it or annexed it in what 70 years? What about the borders drawn in the 1949 Armistace agreement?

The 1949 Armistice Agreement between Israel and Jordan was specifically written as a ceasefire agreement, and not a final peace treaty. It was specifically written to designate the boundary of the ceasefire to delineate ONLY the exact area (on a map, with a green marker) where the Israeli army and the Jordanian army had advanced and were currently located.

Article II.1
The principle-that no military or political advantage should be gained under the truce ordered by the Security Council is recognized;
Article II.2
It is also recognized that no provision of this Agreement shall in anyway prejudice the rights, claims and positions of either Party hereto in the ultimate peaceful settlement of the Palestine question, the provisions of-this Agreement being dictated exclusively by military considerations.
Article IV.2
The basic purpose of the Armistice Demarcation Lines is to delineate the lines beyond which the armed forces of the respective Parties shall not move.

There is no border. There never has been. It was specifically written to ensure that the 1949 Armistice lines could NOT be used as a present or future border. It would be the same as saying that the border between Israel and Gaza now lies south of Gaza City, because that is where the recent ceasefire lines were drawn.

You stated that this was not occupied territory, now you are saying it is? If that is the case then Israeli civil law (not military law, which is far harsher and strips away many legal rights we take granted) should apply. You can’t have it both ways.

It is not occupied territory. There is a mutual agreement between the State of Israel and the State of Palestine about how those territories are to be administered, pending the emergence of a self-governed State of Palestine and a treaty of peace, which will determine the borders, disposition of Jerusalem, return of displaced people, among other significant issues. That territory is provisionally, and temporarily, and voluntarily placed under the authority of the government of Palestine. But that territory has NOT been ceded and without a permanent peace agreement solving the above issues, the territory remains under Israeli sovereignty.

Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip
Article XXXI.6
Nothing in this Agreement shall prejudice or preempt the outcome of the negotiations on the permanent status to be conducted pursuant to the DOP. Neither Party shall be deemed, by virtue of having entered into this Agreement, to have renounced or waived any of its existing rights, claims or positions.

 

[Coyote]

The 1949 Armistice Agreement between Israel and Jordan was specifically written as a ceasefire agreement, and not a final peace treaty. It was specifically written to designate the boundary of the ceasefire to delineate ONLY the exact area (on a map, with a green marker) where the Israeli army and the Jordanian army had advanced and were currently located.

Article II.1
The principle-that no military or political advantage should be gained under the truce ordered by the Security Council is recognized;
Article II.2
It is also recognized that no provision of this Agreement shall in anyway prejudice the rights, claims and positions of either Party hereto in the ultimate peaceful settlement of the Palestine question, the provisions of-this Agreement being dictated exclusively by military considerations.
Article IV.2
The basic purpose of the Armistice Demarcation Lines is to delineate the lines beyond which the armed forces of the respective Parties shall not move.

There is no border. There never has been. It was specifically written to ensure that the 1949 Armistice lines could NOT be used as a present or future border. It would be the same as saying that the border between Israel and Gaza now lies south of Gaza City, because that is where the recent ceasefire lines were drawn.

It is not occupied territory. There is a mutual agreement between the State of Israel and the State of Palestine about how those territories are to be administered, pending the emergence of a self-governed State of Palestine and a treaty of peace, which will determine the borders, disposition of Jerusalem, return of displaced people, among other significant issues. That territory is provisionally, and temporarily, and voluntarily placed under the authority of the government of Palestine. But that territory has NOT been ceded and without a permanent peace agreement solving the above issues, the territory remains under Israeli sovereignty.

Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip
Article XXXI.6
Nothing in this Agreement shall prejudice or preempt the outcome of the negotiations on the permanent status to be conducted pursuant to the DOP. Neither Party shall be deemed, by virtue of having entered into this Agreement, to have renounced or waived any of its existing rights, claims or positions.

Then why are they subject to the military justice system?

I disagree that it is not occupied.

 

[Shusha]

US law, for example, applies to all within the US, whether citizen or not and they all face the same justice system.

Hmmmm. This strikes me as not true. But I am not an expert on US law. But I will look into it, out of curiosity.

 

[Shusha]

I disagree that it is not occupied.

You can disagree all you want. Opinions are not fact. If it is NOT Israel's sovereign territory - whose territory is it? When did that State come into being? What are the boundaries between Israel and that State? What document created those international borders?

 

[Coyote]

Hmmmm. This strikes me as not true. But I am not an expert on US law. But I will look into it, out of curiosity.

Well…I know for a fact they do not go under the military justice system, I could be wrong about the other.

 

[Shusha]

Well…I know for a fact they do not go under the military justice system, I could be wrong about the other.

Well, to be fair, the US is not currently emmeshed in an independence war.

 

[Coyote]

You can disagree all you want. Opinions are not fact. If it is NOT Israel's sovereign territory - whose territory is it? When did that State come into being? What are the boundaries between Israel and that State? What document created those international borders?

If it is not an occupation, then:

Why are the Israeli’s controlling it as an “occupation” when it was allotted to be an Arab state under the partition?

Did Israel state it was no longer occupying Gaza when it withdrew in 2005?

Why has the Israeli High Court referred to it in multiple rulings?

For example:

Israeli High Court Decision on Location of West Bank Barrier | ASIL

www.asil.org