Zone1 The Ten Commandments don't apply to us.

[ding]

Jesus teaches beieve in him or burn in hell. How is that liberation

Where did Jesus say that? It's bad form to bear false witness.

 

[rosends]

Ding,... The largest Sects/"Movements" of "Judaism" Honor the Rabbis, and the Talmud, Gematria, Kaballah, etc., more so than the Tanach (Old Testament).

that's not true. But you just keep saying it if you need to.

 

[ding]

so you don't know the content of Jewish liturgy and law. That's ok.

These are my observations from reading the OT and reading the posts of the Jewish posters in this forum.

 

[ding]

they wrote their bibles to placate the errant dispositions of those unable to fend for themselves and use their weaknesses to insure their pre determined agendas bettering themselves over others using false heavenly personifications to justify their demonic objectives - bing.

the phony commandments claimed heavenly by the liar and murderer moses that have never existed as example the same far fetched stories made up by abraham, unverified communication w/ a particular god that likewise assuredly does not exist.

both putting themselves above all others and their false religions / agendas - desert bibles.

I disagree. Ancient Israelites crafted narratives of historical events to teach lessons about the covenant, obedience and justice. What you are calling lies are in reality embellishments used to teach those lessons.

 

[rosends]

These are my observations from reading the OT and reading the posts of the Jewish posters in this forum.

neither of those is a particularly good way of assimilating information in general, or learning about Judaism in specific.

 

[DennisPTate]

Apparently. Jes' sayin'.

I am of the belief that the ten commandments still do apply to Messianic Jews and Christians. The Apostle Paul made many statements that may have been very easy to misunderstand by the early Messianic Gentile community that eventually evolved into modern Christianity.

The Apostle Paul did not have the authority to rule out any statement by Messiah Yeshua - Jesus who is also Moshiach ben David as well as Messiah the Passover Lamb.

17“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5 | NKJV Bible | YouVersion

The BeatitudesAnd seeing the multitudes, #Matt. 14:23; 15:29; 17:1; Mark 3:13; Luke 6:17; 9:28; John 6:3, 15He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him. Then He opened H

www.bible.com

Charismatic Christian author Rick Joyner reports that he met the Apostle Paul in a visionary dream of heaven and what he was told by Paul was very interesting indeed, [especially in reference to this very question].

[Rick Joyner, The Final Quest] :

The Apostles Advice

I then felt compelled to look at those who were sitting on the thrones we were passing. As I did, my gaze fell upon a man I knew was the apostle Paul. As I looked back at the Lord, He motioned for me to speak to him.

“I have so looked forward to this,” I said, feeling awkward but excited by this meeting. “I know that you are aware of how much your letters have guided the church, and they are probably still accomplishing more than all the rest of us put together. You are still one of the greatest lights on earth.” “Thank you,” he said graciously. “But you do not understand just how much we have looked forward to meeting all of you. You are soldiers in the last battle; you are the ones everyone here is waiting to meet. We only saw these days dimly through our limited prophetic vision, but you have been chosen to live in them. You are soldiers preparing for the last battle. You are the ones we have all been waiting for.”

Still feeling awkward, I continued, “But there is no way that I can convey the appreciation we feel for you and for the others who helped set our course with their lives and their writings. I also know we will have an eternity for exchanging our appreciation, so please, while I am here, let me ask, ‘What would you say to my generation that will help us in this battle?”

“I can only say to you now what I have already said to you through my writings,” Paul stated, looking me resolutely in the eyes. “However, you will understand them better if you realize that I fell short of all that I was called to do.”

“But you are here, on one of the greatest thrones!” I protested. “You are still’ reaping more fruit for eternal life than any of us could ever hope to reap.”

“By the grace of God I was able to finish my course, but I still did not walk in all that I was called to. I fell short of the highest purposes I could have walked in—everyone has. I know that some would practically consider it blasphemy to think of me as anything less than the greatest example of Christian ministry, yet I was being honest when I wrote near the end of my life that I was the greatest of sinners. I was not saying that I had been the greatest of sinners, but rather that I was the greatest of sinners then. Even though I had been given so much understanding, I walked in comparatively little of it.”

“How could that possibly be?” I asked. “I thought you were just being humble.”

“True humility is agreement with the truth. Do not fear. My letters were true, and they were written by the anointing of the Holy Spirit. However, I was given so much, and I did not use all that I was given. I, too, fell short. Everyone here has fallen short, except One. The reason you must see this particularly about me is that many are still distorting my teachings, because they have a distorted view of me.”

“As you saw the progression in my letters, I went from feeling that I was not inferior to even the most eminent apostles, to acknowledging that I was the least of the apostles. I then saw that I was the least of the saints, and finally that I was the greatest of sinners. I was not just being humble, but I was speaking sober truth. I was entrusted with much more than I used. There is only One here who frilly believed, who fully obeyed, and who truly finished all that He was given to do. But you can walk in much more than I did.”

Rediscovering the Foundation

Rather feebly, I replied, “I know that what you are saying is true, but are you sure this is the most important message you could give to us for the last battle?”

“I am sure!” he replied with utter conviction. “I so appreciate the grace of the Lord to use my letters as He has, but. I am concerned with the way many of you are using them improperly. They are the truth of the Holy Spirit and they are Scripture. The Lord did give me great stones to set into the structure of His eternal church, but they are not foundation stones. The foundation stones were laid by Jesus alone. My life and ministry are not the example of what you are called to be; Jesus alone is that.

“If what I have written is used as a foundation, it will not be able to hold the weight of that which needs to be built upon it. What I have written must be built upon the only Foundation that can withstand what you are about to endure; it must not be used as the foundation. You must see my teachings through the Lord’s teachings, not try to understand Him from my perspective. His words are the foundation. I have only built upon them by elaborating on His words. The greatest wisdom and the most powerful truths are His words, not mine.

“It is important for you to know that I did not walk in all that was available to me. There is much more available for every believer to walk in than I did. All true believers have the Holy Spirit in them. The power of the One who created all things lives within them. The least of the saints has the power to move mountains, to stop armies, or to raise the dead.

“If you are to accomplish all that you are called to do in your day, my ministry must not be viewed as the ultimate but merely as a starting place. Your goal must not be to be like me, but to be like the Lord. You can be like Him and do everything that He did, and even more, because He saved His best wine for last.”

I reminded myself that only truth could be spoken here. I knew that Paul was right concerning the wrong use of his teachings as a foundation, rather than building upon the foundation of the Gospels. But it was still hard for me to accept that Paul had fallen short of his calling.

I looked at Paul’s throne and the glory of his being. It was much more than I ever dreamed the greatest saints in heaven would have. He was every bit as forthright and resolute as I had expected him to be. It struck me how obvious it was that he still carried his great concern for all of the churches. I had idolized him, and that was a transgression he was trying to set me free from. Even so, he was much greater than the Paul I had idolized. Knowing what I was thinking, he put both hands on my shoulders and looked me in the eyes even more resolutely.

“I am your brother. I love you, as everyone here does. But you must understand that our course is now finished. We can neither add to nor take away from what we planted on the earth, but you can. We are not your hope. You are now our hope. Even in this conversation I can only confirm what I have already written, but you still have much writing to do. Worship only God, and grow up in all things into Him. Never make any man your goal, but only Him.

“Many will soon walk the earth who will do much greater works than we did. The first shall be last, and the last, first. We do not mind this. It is the joy of our hearts, because we are one with you. The Lord used my generation to lay and begin building upon the foundation, and we will always have the honor of participating in that. But every floor built upon the foundation should go higher. We will not be the building we are supposed to be unless you go higher.”



The Ministry and the Message

As I pondered this, he watched me closely. Then he continued, “There are two things we attained in our time that were lost very quickly by the church. They have not yet been recovered, but you must recover them.” “What are they?” I inquired, feeling that what he was about to say was more than just an addendum to what he had already shared with me.

“You must recover the ministry and the message,” he said emphatically.

I looked at the Lord, and He nodded His affirmation, adding, “It is right that Paul should say this to you. Until this time he has been the most faithful with both of these.”

“Please explain,” I implored Paul.

“All right,” he replied. “Except for a few places in the world where there are great persecutions or difficulties, we can hardly recognize either the ministry or the message that is being preached today. Therefore, the church is now but a phantom of what it was even in our time, and we were far from all we were called to be. When we served, being in ministry was the greatest sacrifice that one could make, and this reflected the message of the greatest sacrifice that was made—the cross.

“The cross is the power of God, and it is the center of all we are called to live by. You now have so little power to transform the minds and hearts of the believers because you do not live, and do not preach, the cross. Therefore, we have difficulty seeing much difference between the church and the heathen. That is not the gospel or the salvation with which we were entrusted. You must return to the cross.” With those words, he squeezed my shoulders like a father, and then returned to his seat. I felt as if I had received both an incredible blessing and a profound rebuke. As I walked away, I began thinking about the level of Salvation on the mountain, and the treasures of salvation I had seen inside the mountain. I began to see that most of my own decisions—even the decision to enter the door that led me here—were based mainly on what would get me further, not on a consideration of the will of the Lord.

I was still living for myself, not for Him. Even in my desire to embrace the judgments here, I was motivated by what would help me make it back in victory without suffering loss. I was still walking much more in self-centeredness than in Christ-centeredness.

The Last-Day Church

I knew the short talk with Paul would have consequences that would take a long time to fully understand. In a way, I felt that I had received a blessing from the entire eternal church. We really were being cheered on by the great cloud of witnesses. They looked at us like proud parents who wanted better things for their children than they themselves had known. Their greatest joy would be to see the church in the last days become everything the church in their day had failed to attain. I also knew I was still falling far short of what they had prepared for us to walk in. “The last-day church will not be greater than Paul’s generation, even if she does greater works,” the Lord interjected. All that is done is done by My grace. However, I will make more of My grace and power available to the last-day church, because she must accomplish more than the church in any age has yet accomplished.

“Last-day believers will walk in all the power that I demonstrated, and more, because they will be the final representatives of all who have gone before them. The church will demonstrate My nature and My ways as they have never been demonstrated before by men. It is because I am giving you more grace, and to whom much is given much will be required.”​

The Final Quest [English] Rick Joyner

The Final Quest [English] Rick Joyner

64.71.77.248

 

[ding]

neither of those is a particularly good way of assimilating information in general, or learning about Judaism in specific.

Observations and study are the heart of discovery.

 

[TruthSeeker112125]

that's not true. But you just keep saying it if you need to.

It is True, & I will continue.

Apparently You do not Keep up with Chabad.org

 

[rosends]

Observations and study are the heart of discovery.

observation is generally superficial. Study is essential. Study from authority, that is.

 

[rosends]

It is True, & I will continue.

Apparently You do not Keep up with Chabad.org

apparently you don't know anything about Judaism. Can you cite me some Jewish legal texts which agree with you?

 

[ding]

observation is generally superficial. Study is essential. Study from authority, that is.

Without observation we wouldn't know anything at all.

 

[rosends]

Without observation we wouldn't know anything at all.

and with only observation we would be constantly misled.

 

[Woodznutz]

I am of the belief that the ten commandments still do apply to Messianic Jews and Christians. The Apostle Paul made many statements that may have been very easy to misunderstand by the early Messianic Gentile community that eventually evolved into modern Christianity.

The Apostle Paul did not have the authority to rule out any statement by Messiah Yeshua - Jesus who is also Moshiach ben David as well as Messiah the Passover Lamb.




Charismatic Christian author Rick Joyner reports that he met the Apostle Paul in a visionary dream of heaven and what he was told by Paul was very interesting indeed, [especially in reference to this very question].

This requires a discussion about 'law and grace'. While Jesus was alive Israel was under the law, as was he. That's why he told people to keep the commandments.

 

[hobelim]

What's so reprehensible about it?

Seriously? What would you call memorializing the human sacrifice of an innocent man, the Jewish Messiah, to a Roman trinity? Wouldn't you allowing an innocent man suffer the death penalty for your crimes be objectively reprehensible demonstrating a complete lack of morals ethics or love for the sacrificial victim, even if they went to their death willingly?

Just for you!

Throwing Jesus under the bus doesn't render karma null and void, as if God was stupid.

Now you know.

Is it less reprehensible to pretend Jesus didn't sacrifice himself as the suffering servant foretold in Isaiah 53? Why is it better to believe Jesus was executed for sorcery and apostasy?

I don't deny the sacrifice Jesus made who died trying to teach people that the Divine commands like kosher Law are not to be taken literally? How sad is that especially since the wisdom of God can be seen by a child in that revelation? He was reviled and rejected as a false prophet a lunatic spewing drunken hubris a sorcerer or magician leading people astray because he openly sinned in the eyes of those blind to the hidden meaning of the Law.

He was executed for sedition after that talk with Pilate who exclaimed "so you are a king!"

A capitol offense in occupied Judea.

 

[Woodznutz]

and with only observation we would be constantly misled.

True. We need revelation as well.

 

[The Irish Ram]

You Irish,.... Pick & Choose from The Scriptures what pleases You, & Upholds Your Beliefs

I choose the scripture that fits the discussion. This is a thread about the ten commandments, and I offered what Jesus said about them. The scripture I post is contrary to what you think scripture says. You fail to address it and try to cut and paste your way out of it. It's your interpretation of scripture vs Christ's knowledge of scripture. We don't have to wonder if the 10 commandments are eternal. Jesus tells us flat out. So again:

Romans 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore, love is the fulfillment of the law.

^ Using the above scripture, explain to us where Jesus went wrong concerning the 10 commandments. He said love trumps rules. You say stick with the rules. Convince us that Christ was wrong and you are right...

 

[hobelim]

Not so for the new testament

Jesus disagrees with you. "Till now I have been using figures of speech.", "The kingdom of Heaven is like hidden treasure buried in a field. The man who found it BURIED IT AGAIN."

And none for the 613 Jewish commandments either.

Wrong. Jesus disagrees with you by saying "Eat my flesh", as did the dead sea community.



On the appointment of presbyters.

When these men have undergone, with blamelessness of conduct, a two year preparation in the fundamentals of the community, they shall be segregated as especially sacred among the formal members of the community. Any knowledge which the expositor of the Law may possess but which may have to remain arcane to the ordinary layman, HE SHALL NOT KEEP HIDDEN FROM THEM; for in their case there need be no fear that it might induce apostasy.

On religious discussion.

No one is to engage in discussion or disputation with men of ill repute; and in the company of froward men everyone is to abstain from talk about (KEEP HIDDEN) the meaning of the Law.

(Dead Sea Scrolls, Manual of Discipline)


This is why Jesus said, "No one lights a candle and then hides it under a bushel, no, they put it on the lamp-stand to everyone in the room can see.", and why some exclaimed "Where did he get this teaching!" Not because it was unknown or never heard but because it was supposed to be kept secret, HIDDEN, especially from froward men like Jesus.

 

[ding]

and with only observation we would be constantly misled.

Without observation you'd know nothing at all.

 

[ding]

Seriously? What would you call memorializing the human sacrifice of an innocent man, the Jewish Messiah, to a Roman trinity? Wouldn't you allowing an innocent man suffer the death penalty for your crimes be objectively reprehensible demonstrating a complete lack of morals ethics or love for the sacrificial victim, even if they went to their death willingly?

It's considered the ultimate love story. Nothing reprehensible about it at all.

Just for you!

Throwing Jesus under the bus doesn't render karma null and void, as if God was stupid.

Now you know.

I'm sure he'll explain it to you after you bend your knee.

I don't deny the sacrifice Jesus made who died trying to teach people that the Divine commands like kosher Law are not to be taken literally? How sad is that especially since the wisdom of God can be seen by a child in that revelation? He was reviled and rejected as a false prophet a lunatic spewing drunken hubris a sorcerer or magician leading people astray because he openly sinned in the eyes of those blind to the hidden meaning of the Law.

He was executed for sedition after that talk with Pilate who exclaimed "so you are a king!"

A capitol offense in occupied Judea.

Sophistry.

 

[ding]

Jesus disagrees with you. "Till now I have been using figures of speech.", "The kingdom of Heaven is like hidden treasure buried in a field. The man who found it BURIED IT AGAIN."

Jesus agrees with me. Jesus disagrees with your sophistry.

Wrong. Jesus disagrees with you by saying "Eat my flesh", as did the dead sea community.

He was very clear about it. There was no confusion on his part.

On the appointment of presbyters.

When these men have undergone, with blamelessness of conduct, a two year preparation in the fundamentals of the community, they shall be segregated as especially sacred among the formal members of the community. Any knowledge which the expositor of the Law may possess but which may have to remain arcane to the ordinary layman, HE SHALL NOT KEEP HIDDEN FROM THEM; for in their case there need be no fear that it might induce apostasy.

On religious discussion.

No one is to engage in discussion or disputation with men of ill repute; and in the company of froward men everyone is to abstain from talk about (KEEP HIDDEN) the meaning of the Law.

(Dead Sea Scrolls, Manual of Discipline)


This is why Jesus said, "No one lights a candle and then hides it under a bushel, no, they put it on the lamp-stand to everyone in the room can see.", and why some exclaimed "Where did he get this teaching!" Not because it was unknown or never heard but because it was supposed to be kept secret, HIDDEN, especially from froward men like Jesus.

Sophistry.