the Roman Catholic Church is NOT Christian!

[Mr.Right]

the false Gospel is anything other than salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

The true gospel is the gospel that Jesus preached. Salvation in none other than Jesus Christ. His free gift of grace. Nothing added to it.

Then the follow-up question is your perception of who Catholics believe salvation is through? i.e., "Catholics believe salvation is through ____________."

You mean this?
Salvation in Roman Catholicism earning salvation Catholic salvation

 

[Meriweather]

You mean this?
Salvation in Roman Catholicism earning salvation Catholic salvation

Of course I don't mean that. Your link is to The Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry (CARM) and is a Protestant ministry. Its president is Matthew Slick, a Protestant. In short, it is a site where Protestants present incorrect information about the Catholic faith.

As I mentioned to you before, I prefer primary sources. Let's look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

161 - Believing in Jesus Christ and the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. (Foundation for this teaching is Mark 16:16, John 3:36, John 6:40, etc.) This is reiterated in Paragraph 169 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church: 169 - Salvation comes from God alone. The paragraph goes on to say that Catholic Church is a teacher in faith.

 

[Mr.Right]

You mean this?
Salvation in Roman Catholicism earning salvation Catholic salvation

Of course I don't mean that. Your link is to The Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry (CARM) and is a Protestant ministry. Its president is Matthew Slick, a Protestant. In short, it is a site where Protestants present incorrect information about the Catholic faith.

As I mentioned to you before, I prefer primary sources. Let's look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

161 - Believing in Jesus Christ and the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. (Foundation for this teaching is Mark 16:16, John 3:36, John 6:40, etc.) This is reiterated in Paragraph 169 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church: 169 - Salvation comes from God alone. The paragraph goes on to say that Catholic Church is a teacher in faith.

the Catholic church says salvation is by grace and works. It also teaches that you can lose your salvation. Both assertions contradict Scripture.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Contradicts Mr.Right's understanding of scripture only.

Trot along, Mr.Right. We have been through this before. You are not an authority.

 

[Meriweather]

the Catholic church says salvation is by grace and works. It also teaches that you can lose your salvation. Both assertions contradict Scripture.

The Catholic Church teaches salvation (God's plan/God's way) is a way of life. Some Protestants describe salvation as a point in time. They seem to think at some point in time salvation is a guarantee they are going to heaven. They seem to view salvation as being saved from hell. To Catholics it is much, much more.

Catholics believe salvation/redemption saves us from sin. In becoming disciples of Christ and living by his teachings, we turn from sin to do the will of the Father. God's grace provides us the strength and guidance we need to stay on the narrow way Christ described, to turn away from sin--because although the spirit is willing the flesh is weak. We need the grace of God to do this, and He bless us with His grace. God's grace also has sanctifying power.

These are ways Christ described the narrow way/discipleship: "I was hungry, thirsty, unknowing, homeless, sick, in prison...and you took care of me." Christ taught the narrow way as discerning the will of the Father and doing it. The narrow way is loving God and loving our fellow man.

Salvation/the Kingdom of God, Christ taught, is at hand, meaning it is within the reach of everyone, right now. Can we turn our backs on the Kingdom? Absolutely. And when we do, we remember the parable Christ told of the Prodigal Son. We will always be welcomed back. Can we wander off the path? Yes. And when we do, we remember Christ as the Good Shepherd leaving the ninety-nine to go in search of the one, to bring him back.

Catholics do not separate salvation, faith, grace, works, love. We live it all. Right here and right now. God's narrow path is His Kingdom. It starts here and extends into eternity.

 

[Mr.Right]

the Catholic church says salvation is by grace and works. It also teaches that you can lose your salvation. Both assertions contradict Scripture.

The Catholic Church teaches salvation (God's plan/God's way) is a way of life. Some Protestants describe salvation as a point in time. They seem to think at some point in time salvation is a guarantee they are going to heaven. They seem to view salvation as being saved from hell. To Catholics it is much, much more.

Catholics believe salvation/redemption saves us from sin. In becoming disciples of Christ and living by his teachings, we turn from sin to do the will of the Father. God's grace provides us the strength and guidance we need to stay on the narrow way Christ described, to turn away from sin--because although the spirit is willing the flesh is weak. We need the grace of God to do this, and He bless us with His grace. God's grace also has sanctifying power.

These are ways Christ described the narrow way/discipleship: "I was hungry, thirsty, unknowing, homeless, sick, in prison...and you took care of me." Christ taught the narrow way as discerning the will of the Father and doing it. The narrow way is loving God and loving our fellow man.

Salvation/the Kingdom of God, Christ taught, is at hand, meaning it is within the reach of everyone, right now. Can we turn our backs on the Kingdom? Absolutely. And when we do, we remember the parable Christ told of the Prodigal Son. We will always be welcomed back. Can we wander off the path? Yes. And when we do, we remember Christ as the Good Shepherd leaving the ninety-nine to go in search of the one, to bring him back.

Catholics do not separate salvation, faith, grace, works, love. We live it all. Right here and right now. God's narrow path is His Kingdom. It starts here and extends into eternity.

Here is my problem with how catholics view salvation.

Ways in which the Bible and the Roman Catholic church differ ChristianAnswers.Net

 

[Meriweather]

Here is my problem with how catholics view salvation.

Ways in which the Bible and the Roman Catholic church differ ChristianAnswers.Net

God save us from still another link to a site where Protestants display their ignorance of Catholic teachings! I am a Catholic. In my last post I explained how Catholics view salvation and yet you go haring off to another non-Catholic site which hasn't a clue on how Catholics view salvation!

Here are some true differences between Catholic teachings and some (not all Protestant) teachings.

1. Catholics believe in free will whereas some Protestant Christians believe God determines our fate.

2. Catholics believe that through faith and grace and the power of God, humans can turn from sinful ways and become a truly just person in thought and in deed--whereas some Protestant Christians believe that no man can become just. However, their belief is that not being truly just doesn't matter in the least as God views sinful man as covered in Christ's blood and will therefore be seen as covered by Christ's blood--even though he continues to sin.

3. Catholics believe we must turn away from sin (repentance for the forgiveness of sins) whereas some Protestant Christians believe that no repentance is necessary beyond a belief in Christ. They believe that faith in Christ (despite any other continuing sinful acts) is turning from sin and Christ has already paid our penalty for these sins. Some Protestants believe Christians were forgiven two thousand years ago for the sins that will be committed tomorrow.

I do not know your beliefs, but these come from conversations I have had with a few (by no means all) Protestants. Is there anything here, or any other true differences you wish to discuss?

 

[ninja007]

Meri, it doesn't matter to you that many former catholics have found Jesus outside the church. Listen to their testimonies; and yes the rcc has invented things up out of thin air that are not in scripture. Just a few purgatory, the eucharist real presence, praying to the dead, salvation by faith and works and the sacraments, the seven sacraments (there are just 2), the rosary, praying and worshipping Mary and statues, etc etc etc...

 

[Meriweather]

Meri, it doesn't matter to you that many former catholics have found Jesus outside the church. Listen to their testimonies; and yes the rcc has invented things up out of thin air that are not in scripture. Just a few purgatory, the eucharist real presence, praying to the dead, salvation by faith and works and the sacraments, the seven sacraments (there are just 2), the rosary, praying and worshipping Mary and statues, etc etc etc...

With you, I've already gone over all of this several times, giving scriptural support, Jesus' teachings, and early Christian practices. Remember...

 

[ninja007]

Meri, it doesn't matter to you that many former catholics have found Jesus outside the church. Listen to their testimonies; and yes the rcc has invented things up out of thin air that are not in scripture. Just a few purgatory, the eucharist real presence, praying to the dead, salvation by faith and works and the sacraments, the seven sacraments (there are just 2), the rosary, praying and worshipping Mary and statues, etc etc etc...

With you, I've already gone over all of this several times, giving scriptural support, Jesus' teachings, and early Christian practices. Remember...

you mean early catholic support, not from the bible, remember? you also mean your popery's misapplied/false interpretations of it not found anywhere in the bible. If you like we can go over them again one by one for the purpose of this thread and its participants and lurkers. Let us start with purgatory. What is the evidence according to rc's about a purgatory.

 

[Mr.Right]

Meri, it doesn't matter to you that many former catholics have found Jesus outside the church. Listen to their testimonies; and yes the rcc has invented things up out of thin air that are not in scripture. Just a few purgatory, the eucharist real presence, praying to the dead, salvation by faith and works and the sacraments, the seven sacraments (there are just 2), the rosary, praying and worshipping Mary and statues, etc etc etc...

With you, I've already gone over all of this several times, giving scriptural support, Jesus' teachings, and early Christian practices. Remember...

you mean early catholic support, not from the bible, remember? you also mean your popery's misapplied/false interpretations of it not found anywhere in the bible. If you like we can go over them again one by one for the purpose of this thread and its participants and lurkers. Let us start with purgatory. What is the evidence according to rc's about a purgatory.

Kicker

Here is my problem with how catholics view salvation.

Ways in which the Bible and the Roman Catholic church differ ChristianAnswers.Net

God save us from still another link to a site where Protestants display their ignorance of Catholic teachings! I am a Catholic. In my last post I explained how Catholics view salvation and yet you go haring off to another non-Catholic site which hasn't a clue on how Catholics view salvation!

Here are some true differences between Catholic teachings and some (not all Protestant) teachings.

1. Catholics believe in free will whereas some Protestant Christians believe God determines our fate.

2. Catholics believe that through faith and grace and the power of God, humans can turn from sinful ways and become a truly just person in thought and in deed--whereas some Protestant Christians believe that no man can become just. However, their belief is that not being truly just doesn't matter in the least as God views sinful man as covered in Christ's blood and will therefore be seen as covered by Christ's blood--even though he continues to sin.

3. Catholics believe we must turn away from sin (repentance for the forgiveness of sins) whereas some Protestant Christians believe that no repentance is necessary beyond a belief in Christ. They believe that faith in Christ (despite any other continuing sinful acts) is turning from sin and Christ has already paid our penalty for these sins. Some Protestants believe Christians were forgiven two thousand years ago for the sins that will be committed tomorrow.

I do not know your beliefs, but these come from conversations I have had with a few (by no means all) Protestants. Is there anything here, or any other true differences you wish to discuss?

That site had Catholic teachings from the original source. Just like you asked. It then proceeded to show, using Scripture, how it is false teaching and therefore of the Devil. Believe it, and turn away from false teaching.

 

[Meriweather]

you mean early catholic support, not from the bible, remember? you also mean your popery's misapplied/false interpretations of it not found anywhere in the bible. If you like we can go over them again one by one for the purpose of this thread and its participants and lurkers. Let us start with purgatory. What is the evidence according to rc's about a purgatory.

Purgatory: Purification after death

Catholic theology (based on scripture) there is the final purification after death, which involves discomfort, but God may assist those in this purification process.

Purgatory was a part of religion in Jesus' day as referenced in pre-Christian Jewish books such as Maccabees and the Life of Adam and Eve. Even in modern times Orthodox Jews pray the Mourner's Qaddish for eleven months for the purification of a loved one who has died.

Only Protestants deny purification after death, apparently giving no thought, or dismissing 1 Corinthians 3:12-15. Jesus (Matthew 12:32) speaks of sins that will or will not be forgiven in the age to come. Matthew 5 we have Jesus teaching us that if we have not reconciled with our fellow man before we see God, God will hold us accountable for the wrong we did them until we have paid the last penny.

I understand you believe Christ paid for all sins two thousand years ago, even ones not yet committed. I understand you also believe that man retains his sinful nature here on earth, but not in heaven. I am not clear on how you see people going from sin to being pure in heaven without first being purified.

 

[ninja007]

you mean early catholic support, not from the bible, remember? you also mean your popery's misapplied/false interpretations of it not found anywhere in the bible. If you like we can go over them again one by one for the purpose of this thread and its participants and lurkers. Let us start with purgatory. What is the evidence according to rc's about a purgatory.

Purgatory: Purification after death

Catholic theology (based on scripture) there is the final purification after death, which involves discomfort, but God may assist those in this purification process.

Purgatory was a part of religion in Jesus' day as referenced in pre-Christian Jewish books such as Maccabees and the Life of Adam and Eve. Even in modern times Orthodox Jews pray the Mourner's Qaddish for eleven months for the purification of a loved one who has died.

Only Protestants deny purification after death, apparently giving no thought, or dismissing 1 Corinthians 3:12-15. Jesus (Matthew 12:32) speaks of sins that will or will not be forgiven in the age to come. Matthew 5 we have Jesus teaching us that if we have not reconciled with our fellow man before we see God, God will hold us accountable for the wrong we did them until we have paid the last penny.

I understand you believe Christ paid for all sins two thousand years ago, even ones not yet committed. I understand you also believe that man retains his sinful nature here on earth, but not in heaven. I am not clear on how you see people going from sin to being pure in heaven without first being purified.

thanks Meri. Now we can talk about this respectfully. To answer your last question- we are ALREADY purified through Jesus and His imputed righteousness when we accept His sacrifice as a free gift. For example, Believer's are changed in the "twinkling" of an eye BEFORE we enter Heaven at the pretrib rapture- those who are dead and those still alive at His coming as we meet Him in the clouds in the air.

If you believe in the mystery of the eucharist (real presence), why is it so hard to believe God cannot change us perfectly just before we enter heaven?

 

[ninja007]

you mean early catholic support, not from the bible, remember? you also mean your popery's misapplied/false interpretations of it not found anywhere in the bible. If you like we can go over them again one by one for the purpose of this thread and its participants and lurkers. Let us start with purgatory. What is the evidence according to rc's about a purgatory.

Purgatory: Purification after death

Catholic theology (based on scripture) there is the final purification after death, which involves discomfort, but God may assist those in this purification process.

Purgatory was a part of religion in Jesus' day as referenced in pre-Christian Jewish books such as Maccabees and the Life of Adam and Eve. Even in modern times Orthodox Jews pray the Mourner's Qaddish for eleven months for the purification of a loved one who has died.

Only Protestants deny purification after death, apparently giving no thought, or dismissing 1 Corinthians 3:12-15. Jesus (Matthew 12:32) speaks of sins that will or will not be forgiven in the age to come. Matthew 5 we have Jesus teaching us that if we have not reconciled with our fellow man before we see God, God will hold us accountable for the wrong we did them until we have paid the last penny.

I understand you believe Christ paid for all sins two thousand years ago, even ones not yet committed. I understand you also believe that man retains his sinful nature here on earth, but not in heaven. I am not clear on how you see people going from sin to being pure in heaven without first being purified.

 

[Meriweather]

That site had Catholic teachings from the original source. Just like you asked. It then proceeded to show, using Scripture, how it is false teaching and therefore of the Devil. Believe it, and turn away from false teaching.

Are you aware that the Catholic definition of justification is different from the Protestant definition? If you went directly to a Catholic site you would discover that the Protestant site you referenced is at cross purposes. It seems totally oblivious that originally Protestants submitted a new definition for Justification and then tossed original teachings on Justification in with sanctification.

Protestant definition of Justification: God removing guilt.
Original definition of Justification still used by Catholics: The power of God enabling a person to be truly just in thought and deed.

Yes. Catholics wish to become truly just. We are not satisfied with continuing to live in sin but without guilt--not when it is within God's power and grace to make us truly just in word and deed.

 

[ninja007]

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 is speaking about the Judgment Seat of Christ (or the Bema Seat), not a purgatory. The JSOC is speaking about our works, not our salvation or our own purity as Believers, but our works done in this body. The purification is God burning/putting fire to TEST our works- whether they were done for the Kingdom or whether we did them for other reasons (selfish ones for example).


For all believers must appear before the bema of Christ, that each one may receive what is due them for the things done while in the Body, whether good or bad (Second Corinthians 5:10)

 

[JWBooth]

I realize that this may upset a lot of people, but it is the truth. If you value your soul, you will read this and come to your own conclusions.

The Roman Catholic Church is Not Christian

Thats just plain demogogic silliness.

 

[ninja007]

That site had Catholic teachings from the original source. Just like you asked. It then proceeded to show, using Scripture, how it is false teaching and therefore of the Devil. Believe it, and turn away from false teaching.

Are you aware that the Catholic definition of justification is different from the Protestant definition? If you went directly to a Catholic site you would discover that the Protestant site you referenced is at cross purposes. It seems totally oblivious that originally Protestants submitted a new definition for Justification and then tossed original teachings on Justification in with sanctification.

Protestant definition of Justification: God removing guilt.
Original definition of Justification still used by Catholics: The power of God enabling a person to be truly just in thought and deed.

Yes. Catholics wish to become truly just. We are not satisfied with continuing to live in sin but without guilt--not when it is within God's power and grace to make us truly just in word and deed.

I go by what the Bible teaches is justification- which is "our" version- the correct one as taught by Jesus Himself.



Therefore, because of justification, believers not only are perfectly free from any charge of guilt (Romans 8:33) but also have the full merit of Christ reckoned to their personal account (Romans 5:17). Here are the forensic realities that flow out of justification:

• We are adopted as sons and daughters (Romans 8:15)
• We become fellow-heirs with Christ (v. 17)
• We are united with Christ so that we become one with Him (1 Corinthians 6:17)
• We are henceforth "in Christ" (Galatians 3:27) and He in us (Colossians 1:27)

How Justification and Sanctification Differ

Justification is distinct from sanctification because in justification God does not make the sinner righteous; He declares that person righteous (Romans 3:28; Galatians 2:16). Notice how justification and sanctification are distinct from one another:

• Justification imputes Christ's righteousness to the sinner's account (Romans 4:11b); sanctification imparts righteousness to the sinner personally and practically (Romans 6:1-7; 8:11-14).
• Justification takes place outside sinners and changes their standing (Romans 5:1-2, sanctification is internal and changes the believer's state (Romans 6:19).
• Justification is an event, sanctification a process.

Justification by Faith

 

[Meriweather]

thanks Meri. Now we can talk about this respectfully. To answer your last question- we are ALREADY purified through Jesus and His imputed righteousness when we accept His sacrifice as a free gift. For example, Believer's are changed in the "twinkling" of an eye BEFORE we enter Heaven at the pretrib rapture- those who are dead and those still alive at His coming as we meet Him in the clouds in the air.

If you believe in the mystery of the eucharist (real presence), why is it so hard to believe God cannot change us perfectly just before we enter heaven?

Are you unaware that you just described Purgatory? Purgatory is that purification process that takes place in the "twinkling of an eye" before a person enters heaven. The only difference I see is that Catholics acknowledge that time is very different in heaven (a thousand years is like a day; a day is like a thousand years) and that we do not know how to measure the heavenly "twinkling of an eye" by the earthly clock.

So, like Catholics, you do believe in a purification process? You just don't care for the term purge/purgatory which is synonymous with purification?

 

[Mr.Right]

That site had Catholic teachings from the original source. Just like you asked. It then proceeded to show, using Scripture, how it is false teaching and therefore of the Devil. Believe it, and turn away from false teaching.

Are you aware that the Catholic definition of justification is different from the Protestant definition? If you went directly to a Catholic site you would discover that the Protestant site you referenced is at cross purposes. It seems totally oblivious that originally Protestants submitted a new definition for Justification and then tossed original teachings on Justification in with sanctification.

Protestant definition of Justification: God removing guilt.
Original definition of Justification still used by Catholics: The power of God enabling a person to be truly just in thought and deed.

Yes. Catholics wish to become truly just. We are not satisfied with continuing to live in sin but without guilt--not when it is within God's power and grace to make us truly just in word and deed.

There are none righteous. No. Not one.