The Palestine Solution

[Billo_Really]

The Hamas Charter is a statement of Islamic fascism which is as relevant to Islamists today as it was 40 years ago.

Not according to recent statements by Hamas leaders.

 

[aris2chat]

...Israel needs to:

1. Remove all IDF military personnel from the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights.
2. End the blockade of Gaza by opening up the Ezra crossing and stop shooting at Palestinian fishermen in international waters.
3. Dismantle the over 500 roadblocks and checkpoints in the West Bank.
4. Demolish the Iron Curtain that was constructed on Palestinian land.
5. Take back those psychotic, white trash settlers to Israel, or negotiate resident visa's with the PA for them to stay.
6. And if they are given resident visa's, train Hamas and Fatah security forces in methods and operations to protect them.

Thank you. This is exactly what I was looking for. However, I think you are getting ahead of yourself.

1. How can Israel withdraw troops without determining borders to know where to withdraw troops from? So, while it is correct for Israel to withdraw troops, borders need to be established first.

2. I agree that the blockade should and would end in an end-of-conflict agreement. Although again, I think you are putting the cart before the horse.

However, sovereign nations have a right to control entry into their State. An international border established between Gaza and Israel will not change that. Even extremely friendly nations such as the US and Canada have border crossings and checkpoints. Perhaps, I misunderstand what you mean by "opening up the Ezra crossing".

3. Let's not confuse the issue with false information. My understanding is that there are only 39 checkpoints within Area B and none in Area A. There are an additional 36 checkpoints which are entry points into Israel (read international border ). I agree that once borders are established, Israel must remove all military personnel and checkpoints from other States.

4. Again, once borders are determined States can do whatever they wish with any walls built. If you would like to have Israel financially responsible for removal of walls that will be left on the Palestinian or Gazan sides of the border, I can agree to that.

5. Okay, nasty way of framing things aside, citizenship needs to be determined. However, I disagree that removing either Jewish or Arab Muslim people from their homes and sending them across the international border is morally or legally permissible.

6. Of course. The police in all States must be able to protect their citizens.

I would like to make a counter proposal as step one:

1. Borders will be established based on the principal of creating a contiguous Palestinian State and a Gaza State. (3 States).
2. Borders will be based loosely on the lines between Areas B and C with the Jewish populated Area C being transferred to Israel and land swaps given in exchange.

3. Jerusalem is to be divided into areas under Palestinian sovereignty and under Israeli sovereignty but the Old City and the Temple Mount are to remain under Israeli sovereignty with joint caretakership and security between Palestine and Israel. People of all faiths are guaranteed access and freedom of worship. Each State will allow access to citizens of the other State to all holy places.

4. Certain areas will be retained by Israel for security reasons, to be gradually and conditionally turned over to Palestine.

Muslims won't allow anyone freedom to worship except Muslims.

Freedom to worship is relative. Other sects are seen as heretics and abused, forced to convert or killed in many cases.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I like to think that but I'm not so sure. There is no Nelson Mandella figure to negotiate peace and reconciliation. Without reconciliation can you have true peace and true justice? I'm thinking about countries like the former Rhodesia where "justice" turned into vengeance.

There can not be justice until the fundamental underlying ideologies change and the Arab Muslims, along with those Westerners who support them, stop demonizing Israel and begin to recognize her rights. Her rights to territory; her rights to be a State for the Jewish people; her rights to her own history; her rights to pray and worship and protect her holy places; the right of her people to determine their own values and laws and culture; the right to defend their citizens, their borders and their territory.

The problem is that there are no Arab Muslims who are willing to really acknowledge and fundamentally believe in the rights of the Jewish people. And there are a shockingly large number of Westerners who also fail to believe in the rights of the Jewish people (witness this forum).

Let's look at Gaza. Israel has no interest in Gaza. It is not home to important holy places, it is not a vital area of security. Israel can give up Gaza with virtually no consequences. Gaza also has a ton of potential as a self-supporting, viable nation (think of the tourism opportunities -- have you seen the beaches?) So it seems to me to be a no-brainer to encourage Gaza to independance.

So Israel pulls entirely out of Gaza -- uprooting 10,000 people and ethnically cleansing Gaza for the Palestinian peoples. The borders are not in dispute. What would have happened if there had been a leader to arise out of Gaza who decided to develop Gaza into a viable nation State, living peacefully alongside with Egypt and Israel, developing trade and the economy, caretaking the water supply, providing social services, developing agriculture and tourism. No rockets, no mortars, no suicide bombers, no tunnels, no kidnapping of soldiers? What would have happened?

It seems to me that we would have a thriving State of Gaza.

So why didn't it happen? Because a thriving State of Gaza is not what the Palestinians want.

And this talk about, "defending themselves" is a load of BS. Defending themselves from whom? What is it, exactly, that the Gazans want Israel to do? Yes, yes -- remove the blockade and normalize the border. I get that. But what makes people think that removing the blockade and normalizing an international border when you are importing weapons and constantly committing attacks on innocent Israeli civilians is going to happen? Are you kidding? The blockade ends when the belligerence ends. If they stopped attacking Israel and just worked on their own shit -- there would not be any more conflict. It would be over.

Do Gazans have a right to defend themselves? Of course they do. But NO ONE is attacking them. A blockade is a DEFENSE not an attack.

So, yes, we need someone in Gaza to lead them to peace. There is no such person there at this point. And unfortunately, far too many people support Hamas; their anti-Israel and antisemitic ideology and their charter which demands that every inch of the territory be returned to Muslim rule.

It seems to me that we would have a thriving State of Gaza.

So why didn't it happen? Because a thriving State of Gaza is not what the Palestinians want.​

Part of Israel's disengagement was implementing a system of closure. This destroyed Gaza's economy and prevented any further development.

I'm afraid yours are the stereotypical excuses for Pali-Arab incompetence and ineptitude. The Palis had an opportunity after Israel's unilateral withdraw to establish a functioning society and a viable attempt at industry and commerce. They chose the route of belligerent Islamic terrorist and the attacks at Israel followed soon after.

 

[Hollie]

The Hamas Charter is a statement of Islamic fascism which is as relevant to Islamists today as it was 40 years ago.

Not according to recent statements by Hamas leaders.

Sorry, pointless, but no affirmative steps are being taken by the Islamic terrorists in Gaza to change any of the fascistic ideologies that the Hamas Charter is drenched in.

As recently as today:

Israel strikes Gaza sites after rocket fire

 

[Shusha]

A blockade is an offensive Act of War. The Gazans are entitled to attempt to break the blockade as a defensive measure.

Okay. Let's say that the blockade is an Act of War. Let's (still!) on this thread, look towards solutions rather than laying blame.

The blockade is a legal Act of War in response to specific, belligerent, indiscriminate, illegal attacks on Israeli citizens. Again, Israel has no interest in keeping Gaza's territory or in bringing the people of Gaza under her sovereignty. I think it is pretty apparent why, but to be clear: its a population hostile to Israel.

There is no way in hell that Israel is going to remove the blockade to such a hostile population. Especially with so many other Muslim nations and groups willing to fund anyone to attack Israel and, let's be honest, Jews. It would be suicide to do so. Well, maybe not suicide to Israel, but it would result in some nasty attacks on Israel followed by an even nastier response. The blockade is, in actual fact, protecting the region from a violent conflict on a much larger scale.

SO, in light of this and looking for solutions: What would be the most reasonable thing for the Gazans to do? Stop attacking Israel. Seek peaceful relations with Israel. Grow their own economy. Use the funds given to them for the benefit of their people. Obtain sovereignty. Build really, really nice hotels along the beaches.

Why are Gazans NOT doing this? What are they hoping to accomplish by NOT doing this?

 

[P F Tinmore]

A blockade is an offensive Act of War. The Gazans are entitled to attempt to break the blockade as a defensive measure.

Okay. Let's say that the blockade is an Act of War. Let's (still!) on this thread, look towards solutions rather than laying blame.

The blockade is a legal Act of War in response to specific, belligerent, indiscriminate, illegal attacks on Israeli citizens. Again, Israel has no interest in keeping Gaza's territory or in bringing the people of Gaza under her sovereignty. I think it is pretty apparent why, but to be clear: its a population hostile to Israel.

There is no way in hell that Israel is going to remove the blockade to such a hostile population. Especially with so many other Muslim nations and groups willing to fund anyone to attack Israel and, let's be honest, Jews. It would be suicide to do so. Well, maybe not suicide to Israel, but it would result in some nasty attacks on Israel followed by an even nastier response. The blockade is, in actual fact, protecting the region from a violent conflict on a much larger scale.

SO, in light of this and looking for solutions: What would be the most reasonable thing for the Gazans to do? Stop attacking Israel. Seek peaceful relations with Israel. Grow their own economy. Use the funds given to them for the benefit of their people. Obtain sovereignty. Build really, really nice hotels along the beaches.

Why are Gazans NOT doing this? What are they hoping to accomplish by NOT doing this?

Seek peaceful relations with Israel.​

Indeed, why aren't they discussing options.

Hamas offered a truce. What's happening with that?

 

[Hollie]

A blockade is an offensive Act of War. The Gazans are entitled to attempt to break the blockade as a defensive measure.

Okay. Let's say that the blockade is an Act of War. Let's (still!) on this thread, look towards solutions rather than laying blame.

The blockade is a legal Act of War in response to specific, belligerent, indiscriminate, illegal attacks on Israeli citizens. Again, Israel has no interest in keeping Gaza's territory or in bringing the people of Gaza under her sovereignty. I think it is pretty apparent why, but to be clear: its a population hostile to Israel.

There is no way in hell that Israel is going to remove the blockade to such a hostile population. Especially with so many other Muslim nations and groups willing to fund anyone to attack Israel and, let's be honest, Jews. It would be suicide to do so. Well, maybe not suicide to Israel, but it would result in some nasty attacks on Israel followed by an even nastier response. The blockade is, in actual fact, protecting the region from a violent conflict on a much larger scale.

SO, in light of this and looking for solutions: What would be the most reasonable thing for the Gazans to do? Stop attacking Israel. Seek peaceful relations with Israel. Grow their own economy. Use the funds given to them for the benefit of their people. Obtain sovereignty. Build really, really nice hotels along the beaches.

Why are Gazans NOT doing this? What are they hoping to accomplish by NOT doing this?

Seek peaceful relations with Israel.​

Indeed, why aren't they discussing options.

Hamas offered a truce. What's happening with that?

What's happening with that is acts of war were perpetrated just today by Hamas.

When, outside of the areas occupied by Islamic terrorists, is a truce reinforced by acts of war?

Ultimately, there will never be even a first step toward a Palestine solution without first ending the UN funded welfare system that maintains the funding for Islamic terrorist franchises in Gaza.

 

[P F Tinmore]

A blockade is an offensive Act of War. The Gazans are entitled to attempt to break the blockade as a defensive measure.

Okay. Let's say that the blockade is an Act of War. Let's (still!) on this thread, look towards solutions rather than laying blame.

The blockade is a legal Act of War in response to specific, belligerent, indiscriminate, illegal attacks on Israeli citizens. Again, Israel has no interest in keeping Gaza's territory or in bringing the people of Gaza under her sovereignty. I think it is pretty apparent why, but to be clear: its a population hostile to Israel.

There is no way in hell that Israel is going to remove the blockade to such a hostile population. Especially with so many other Muslim nations and groups willing to fund anyone to attack Israel and, let's be honest, Jews. It would be suicide to do so. Well, maybe not suicide to Israel, but it would result in some nasty attacks on Israel followed by an even nastier response. The blockade is, in actual fact, protecting the region from a violent conflict on a much larger scale.

SO, in light of this and looking for solutions: What would be the most reasonable thing for the Gazans to do? Stop attacking Israel. Seek peaceful relations with Israel. Grow their own economy. Use the funds given to them for the benefit of their people. Obtain sovereignty. Build really, really nice hotels along the beaches.

Why are Gazans NOT doing this? What are they hoping to accomplish by NOT doing this?

Seek peaceful relations with Israel.​

Indeed, why aren't they discussing options.

Hamas offered a truce. What's happening with that?

What's happening with that is acts of war were perpetrated just today by Hamas.

When, outside of the areas occupied by Islamic terrorists, is a truce reinforced by acts of war?

Ultimately, there will never be even a first step toward a Palestine solution without first ending the UN funded welfare system that maintains the funding for Islamic terrorist franchises in Gaza.

What's happening with that is acts of war were perpetrated just today by Hamas.​

Was that a violation of a truce?

 

[Shusha]

Hamas offered a truce. What's happening with that?

This truce? The one accompanied by nearly 3000 rockets that month?

Here's the deal: the blockade does not end until the rockets, suicide bombers and tunnel-building ends. The blockade ends when PEACE becomes the new norm. Again, I ask, WHY are the Gazan people NOT stopping the violent, belligerent, indiscriminate, illegal attacks? Instead of "truce" -- why not make a permanent peace treaty with Israel and develop a mutually rewarding relationship?

 

[montelatici]

Until Israel removes the blockade, Israel is making war. When and if Israel removes the blockade, there could be negotiations, until then the Palestinians have every right to try to break the blockade. The fact of the matter is that Israel has no intention of relinquishing control of Gaza whether the Palestinians resist or not.

 

[Hollie]

For anyone not familiar with Islamist ideology, the "truce" suggested by Tinmore is not a concept known to Islamism. What tinmore is referring to, and what the Islamic terrorists in Gaza have practiced is a Hudna.

From the link below:

"For a hudna is not a "truce" in the Western sense of that word. As Dr. Denis MacEoin, writing in the Middle East Quarterly has observed, thereare more thanseven other Arabic words for truce or cease-fire in Arabic. A better understanding of the full cultural baggage attached to hudna is necessary in order to grasp what Marzouk has really said:

A hudna is always temporary, and not for a duration of more than ten years. As a concept, it does not carry within it the potential to develop into a full peace. Rather, it is arrived at during times of Muslim weakness, when it is perceived as desirable to seek a respite from open hostilities.

Historically hudna is associated with the Truce of al-Hudaybiyya in the seventh century. Muhammad and his followers had abandoned Mecca to non-Muslims because they did not have sufficient strength to hold it. At Hudaybiyya, a truce was negotiated that was to permit the Muslims to return unarmed to Mecca annually for the next ten years for purposes of religious pilgrimage. Two years later, however, using an infraction of the agreement as a pretext, Muhammad and his followers, who then had sufficient strength, moved in and took Mecca; its residents, believing they had a truce with Muhammad, were unprepared to do battle."



Read more: Blog: Really Missing the Point on 'Hudna'

 

[Hollie]

Until Israel removes the blockade, Israel is making war. When and if Israel removes the blockade, there could be negotiations, until then the Palestinians have every right to try to break the blockade. The fact of the matter is that Israel has no intention of relinquishing control of Gaza whether the Palestinians resist or not.

You're suffering from what is called cognitive dissonance.

The blockade is an effective military tactic that aids in keeping arms, ammunition and war-making supplies from Islamic terrorists occupying Gaza.

Every national government has a responsibility to protect its citizens. Preventing the flow of arms to the Islamic terrorists in Gaza is a responsibility of the Israeli government to prevent further and continued acts of war being perpetrated by Hamas.

 

[Shusha]

Until Israel removes the blockade, Israel is making war. When and if Israel removes the blockade, there could be negotiations, until then the Palestinians have every right to try to break the blockade. The fact of the matter is that Israel has no intention of relinquishing control of Gaza whether the Palestinians resist or not.

The blockade is a response to Hamas making war. When Hamas stops making war, then negotiations can begin and the blockade can be removed when Hamas (or the government of Gaza) proves its willingness to cease making war and start making peace.

Again, it would increase the conflict (to Gaza's detriment) to remove the blockade of a hostile, belligerent population with allies willing to fund the destruction of Israel and Jews.

Again, if the goal is simply to end the blockade -- the easiest, most reasonable path to that is to simply stop attacking Israel.

Again, what is the goal of the Gazan people?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Until Israel removes the blockade, Israel is making war. When and if Israel removes the blockade, there could be negotiations, until then the Palestinians have every right to try to break the blockade. The fact of the matter is that Israel has no intention of relinquishing control of Gaza whether the Palestinians resist or not.

You're suffering from what is called cognitive dissonance.

The blockade is an effective military tactic that aids in keeping arms, ammunition and war-making supplies from Islamic terrorists occupying Gaza.

Every national government has a responsibility to protect its citizens. Preventing the flow of arms to the Islamic terrorists in Gaza is a responsibility of the Israeli government to prevent further and continued acts of war being perpetrated by Hamas.

The blockade is an effective military tactic that aids in keeping arms, ammunition and war-making supplies from Islamic terrorists occupying Gaza.​

Is that why Israel gets no rockets?

 

[Hollie]

Until Israel removes the blockade, Israel is making war. When and if Israel removes the blockade, there could be negotiations, until then the Palestinians have every right to try to break the blockade. The fact of the matter is that Israel has no intention of relinquishing control of Gaza whether the Palestinians resist or not.

You're suffering from what is called cognitive dissonance.

The blockade is an effective military tactic that aids in keeping arms, ammunition and war-making supplies from Islamic terrorists occupying Gaza.

Every national government has a responsibility to protect its citizens. Preventing the flow of arms to the Islamic terrorists in Gaza is a responsibility of the Israeli government to prevent further and continued acts of war being perpetrated by Hamas.

The blockade is an effective military tactic that aids in keeping arms, ammunition and war-making supplies from Islamic terrorists occupying Gaza.​

Is that why Israel gets no rockets?

No. That's why Israel get fewer rockets than without the blockade.

But cheer up. Hamas still finds ways to spend their welfare dollars for war making supplies. The result of their acts of war are the inevitable dead Pal'istanians, but really, who cares when those bodies make for good YouTube propaganda videos.

 

[Shusha]

The blockade is the BEST military tactic to employ in order to minimize the consequences to innocent Israeli citizens while not escalating the conflict or re-occupying Gaza and applying sovereignty.

 

[montelatici]

As long as Israel makes war, and the blockade is war, there is no path to peace. Israel must stop making war.


“belligerent measures taken by a nation (to) prevent passage of vessels or aircraft to and from another country. Customary international law recognizes blockades as an act of war because of the belligerent use of force even against third party nations in enforcing the blockade. Blockades as acts of war have been recognized as such in the Declaration of Paris of 1856 and the Declaration of London of 1909 that delineate the international rules of warfare.”

America approved these Declarations, so they’re binding US law as well “as part of general international law and customary international law.” Past US presidents, including Dwight Eisenhower and Jack Kennedy, called blockades acts of war. So has the US Supreme Court."

Blockades: Acts of War

 

[Shusha]

As long as Israel makes war, and the blockade is war, there is no path to peace. Israel must stop making war.

Israel is not making war. Israel is responding to belligerent, indiscriminate, illegal attacks by a hostile population.

Again, the consequences of removing the blockade are DIRE for everyone in the region, but for the Gazan people in particular.

Again, the consequences of the government of Gaza ceasing its belligerent attacks are POSITIVE for everyone in the region, but the Gazan people in particular.

So again, WHY are the Gazan people not simply ceasing their attacks?

 

[P F Tinmore]

The blockade is the BEST military tactic to employ in order to minimize the consequences to innocent Israeli citizens while not escalating the conflict or re-occupying Gaza and applying sovereignty.

The Israeli military has been pounding Palestinian civilians for over 70 years and has not won yet.

And they call the Palestinians incompetent.

 

[Shusha]

The blockade is the BEST military tactic to employ in order to minimize the consequences to innocent Israeli citizens while not escalating the conflict or re-occupying Gaza and applying sovereignty.

The Israeli military has been pounding Palestinian civilians for over 70 years and has not won yet.

And they call the Palestinians incompetent.

Did you not read my post? Israel is trying to avoid escalating conflict and occupying Gaza. What would "winning" look like to Israel?