The Palestine Solution

[Coyote]

However, and again, none of this moves us forward. I will ask you, since no one else has dared to answer it: Why are the Gazan people NOT moving toward self-determination and peace alongside Israel? There is no border dispute. There is nothing much even to be negotiated. Why do they not simply cease their attacks? What is their goal?

For one, I think Hamas has failed them and they have not held elections since Hamas took over.

For another....there may not be a border dispute, but Israel still controlled much of Gaza - they control their airspace, coastline, border crossing etc.

Gaza Fact Check: 10 myths for 10 years of disengagement | Gaza Gateway | Facts and Analysis about the Crossings

1. Israel disengaged from Gaza (and all it got in return were rockets).

In a nutshell: Israel controls Gaza’s territorial waters, air space and most of its border crossings. This isn’t disengagement, just remote control.

When the last Israeli soldier serving in the Gaza Strip exited the territory, on September 11, 2005, a key feature of Israel’s presence in the lives of Gaza residents came to an end. Yet, Israel maintained control of all crossings along its border with Gaza, as well as Gaza’s territorial waters and air space. Israel continues to control the majority of supply of water, electricity and fuel to Gaza. It controls cellular and electronic communication lines and a portion of Gaza’s territory, inside the Strip, in an area the military designates a “no-go zone”. Israeli politicians discuss among themselves whether to allow Gaza residents to build and operate a seaport. Israel allows the entry of construction materials designated for Gaza’s reconstruction, but under condition that it approve every single purchase. It has used Gaza’s fishing zone as a bargaining chip in every ceasefire negotiation at the cessation of hostilities, and refuses to even engage in a conversation about the rebuilding of Gaza’s airport, which lays in ruins after being bombed in 2001 (and 2009).

As for rockets, regrettably, communities in southern Israel have been suffering from rocket fire since 2001, when Israel had a permanent ground presence in Gaza. Israel is facing real security threats. But the way it has chosen to address them is wreaking havoc on the lives of the 1.8 million people living in Gaza – a majority of whom are children – and it is failing to provide security to the residents of southern Israel. In fact, security experts have acknowledged that not only has the closure failed to advance Israel’s security, but rather, it is one of the main drivers of instability in the region.​

As for rockets, regrettably, communities in southern Israel...​

Sderot, for example, is an illegal Israeli settlement built on occupied Palestinian land.

Should this be discussed in another thread?

Probably - the topic should revolve around proposed states

 

[Slyhunter]

You can inform the Czech and Slovak citizens as well as Vietnamese, Cambodian, Koreans, Burmese, Sudanese, Ugandans, Tibetians, Congoans, Polish, Argentine, Ethiopians........

But you lefties don't care about what goes on around the world. Just that 5 mile wide strip of sand where the Jews live.

Actually, I don't care about that either.

The only strip of sand I care about, is Sunset Beach, Ca.

No, you post jibberish about it being illegal to take land by war. That's bullshit. Sh*t happens when you lose wars you start, and losing land is one of them.

The entire world that is full of bullshit evil focuses upon one tiny strip of sand for one reason and one reason only - the Jews really are Gods chosen people.

Well, there you go. When a people hold themselves to be better than others, like Germans and others before them did, the problems begin.

More jibberish. Israel has been the one attacked. And kicked Islamofascist ass for it.

To put it into simple terms so that even you can understand.

The Zionists were in Europe and the Palestinians lived in Palestine, they were the native people. The Zionists went from Europe to Palestine to evict the native people. How can the native people possibly be the attackers?

God said so in the bible.

 

[rhodescholar]

I like to think that but I'm not so sure. There is no Nelson Mandella figure to negotiate peace and reconciliation. Without reconciliation can you have true peace and true justice? I'm thinking about countries like the former Rhodesia where "justice" turned into vengeance.

There can not be justice until the fundamental underlying ideologies change and the Arab Muslims, along with those Westerners who support them, stop demonizing Israel and begin to recognize her rights. Her rights to territory; her rights to be a State for the Jewish people; her rights to her own history; her rights to pray and worship and protect her holy places; the right of her people to determine their own values and laws and culture; the right to defend their citizens, their borders and their territory.

The problem is that there are no Arab Muslims who are willing to really acknowledge and fundamentally believe in the rights of the Jewish people. And there are a shockingly large number of Westerners who also fail to believe in the rights of the Jewish people (witness this forum).

Let's look at Gaza. Israel has no interest in Gaza. It is not home to important holy places, it is not a vital area of security. Israel can give up Gaza with virtually no consequences. Gaza also has a ton of potential as a self-supporting, viable nation (think of the tourism opportunities -- have you seen the beaches?) So it seems to me to be a no-brainer to encourage Gaza to independance.

So Israel pulls entirely out of Gaza -- uprooting 10,000 people and ethnically cleansing Gaza for the Palestinian peoples. The borders are not in dispute. What would have happened if there had been a leader to arise out of Gaza who decided to develop Gaza into a viable nation State, living peacefully alongside with Egypt and Israel, developing trade and the economy, caretaking the water supply, providing social services, developing agriculture and tourism. No rockets, no mortars, no suicide bombers, no tunnels, no kidnapping of soldiers? What would have happened?

It seems to me that we would have a thriving State of Gaza.

So why didn't it happen? Because a thriving State of Gaza is not what the Palestinians want.

And this talk about, "defending themselves" is a load of BS. Defending themselves from whom? What is it, exactly, that the Gazans want Israel to do? Yes, yes -- remove the blockade and normalize the border. I get that. But what makes people think that removing the blockade and normalizing an international border when you are importing weapons and constantly committing attacks on innocent Israeli civilians is going to happen? Are you kidding? The blockade ends when the belligerence ends. If they stopped attacking Israel and just worked on their own shit -- there would not be any more conflict. It would be over.

Do Gazans have a right to defend themselves? Of course they do. But NO ONE is attacking them. A blockade is a DEFENSE not an attack.

So, yes, we need someone in Gaza to lead them to peace. There is no such person there at this point. And unfortunately, far too many people support Hamas; their anti-Israel and antisemitic ideology and their charter which demands that every inch of the territory be returned to Muslim rule.

As long as the current regime of iran exists, peace is impossible in the mideast. That filth needs this conflict to continue indefinitely, it is an important means of distracting its people as it steals their wealth and slaughters them, while fomenting wars across the region. Destroy that regime, and the sources of funding and weapons for hamas/hezbollah vanish.

 

[rhodescholar]

Israel is not making war. Israel is responding to belligerent, indiscriminate, illegal attacks by a hostile population.

Again, the consequences of removing the blockade are DIRE for everyone in the region, but for the Gazan people in particular.

Again, the consequences of the government of Gaza ceasing its belligerent attacks are POSITIVE for everyone in the region, but the Gazan people in particular.

So again, WHY are the Gazan people not simply ceasing their attacks?

Notice how the pro-arab terror supporters make no effort to condemn the lack of basic human rights in gaza; no freedom of speech, assembly, press, etc., that there has been no elections for ten years, that hamas murdered 20 people in cold blood for demonstrating for democracy, that hamas has ethnically cleansed out minorities including christians out of gaza, that it represses democracy movements such as Tamarod that seek to bring democratic principles to gaza, etc. hamas is an iranian foreign implant/cancer; until Israel or someone else outside gaza steps in to destroy it, gaza will be under their cancerous oppression forever.

 

[rhodescholar]

Yes I believe Israelis would resort to terrorism because they did when they were trying to win a state. Whether it is inevitable or not...I don't know, I had not thought too much about that but it leads to a question. In the many conflicts that involved seperatist movements, freedom and rights movements, the creation of new states - did any of them not involve some level of terrorism?

You are a lying, dishonest asshole, plain and simple. The jews in germany did not, they did not during the 40s and 50s when they were not militarily powerful - the King David bombing was an attack on british soldiers, which means it is not terrorism - and they have not done so now.

If a person cannot recognize that the arab culture of violence is diseased and in need of absolute reformation, then they are literally too stupid to be posting in this forum.

 

[Coyote]

Yes I believe Israelis would resort to terrorism because they did when they were trying to win a state. Whether it is inevitable or not...I don't know, I had not thought too much about that but it leads to a question. In the many conflicts that involved seperatist movements, freedom and rights movements, the creation of new states - did any of them not involve some level of terrorism?

You are a lying, dishonest asshole, plain and simple. The jews in germany did not, they did not during the 40s and 50s when they were not militarily powerful - the King David bombing was an attack on british soldiers, which means it is not terrorism - and they have not done so now.

If a person cannot recognize that the arab culture of violence is diseased and in need of absolute reformation, then they are literally too stupid to be posting in this forum.

Did you miss the list of all the civilian bombings Irgun engaged in? Market places, buses, cinemas etc? Yes, I guess you did.

 

[montelatici]

Yes I believe Israelis would resort to terrorism because they did when they were trying to win a state. Whether it is inevitable or not...I don't know, I had not thought too much about that but it leads to a question. In the many conflicts that involved seperatist movements, freedom and rights movements, the creation of new states - did any of them not involve some level of terrorism?

You are a lying, dishonest asshole, plain and simple. The jews in germany did not, they did not during the 40s and 50s when they were not militarily powerful - the King David bombing was an attack on british soldiers, which means it is not terrorism - and they have not done so now.

If a person cannot recognize that the arab culture of violence is diseased and in need of absolute reformation, then they are literally too stupid to be posting in this forum.

Not only did the Jew terrorists murder thousands of Christian and Muslim civilians, the disgusting blood thirsty Jewish killers with their culture of violence also murdered UN peace negotiators, such as Count Bernadotte. Any one that is so ignorant as to not know the history should not be posting on this forum.

 

[Shusha]

I agree that that view is far more prevalent among Palestinians than Israeli's and the majority of Israeli society condemns such actoins, but the Israeli's are not totally innocent either.

Never did I say that either all Jews or all Israelis are totally innocent. But we agree that "that view" is far more prevalent among Palestinians than Israelis (Jews) and that the majority of Israeli society condemns such actions (in contrast to the majority of Palestinian society which celebrates such actions. That was my entire point and you agree with me.

 

[Coyote]

I agree that that view is far more prevalent among Palestinians than Israeli's and the majority of Israeli society condemns such actoins, but the Israeli's are not totally innocent either.

Never did I say that either all Jews or all Israelis are totally innocent. But we agree that "that view" is far more prevalent among Palestinians than Israelis (Jews) and that the majority of Israeli society condemns such actions (in contrast to the majority of Palestinian society which celebrates such actions. That was my entire point and you agree with me.

I don't know if I'd say the majority of Palestinians "celebrate" such actions, but I do agree the view is certainly more prevalent among Palestinians. I do find there is a disturbing trend in Israeli public opinion polls though.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I agree that that view is far more prevalent among Palestinians than Israeli's and the majority of Israeli society condemns such actoins, but the Israeli's are not totally innocent either.

Never did I say that either all Jews or all Israelis are totally innocent. But we agree that "that view" is far more prevalent among Palestinians than Israelis (Jews) and that the majority of Israeli society condemns such actions (in contrast to the majority of Palestinian society which celebrates such actions. That was my entire point and you agree with me.

Explain to me please why carrying a ten pound bomb into a building is terrorism and dropping a 2000 pound bomb from an airplane is not.

 

[Indeependent]

I agree that that view is far more prevalent among Palestinians than Israeli's and the majority of Israeli society condemns such actoins, but the Israeli's are not totally innocent either.

Never did I say that either all Jews or all Israelis are totally innocent. But we agree that "that view" is far more prevalent among Palestinians than Israelis (Jews) and that the majority of Israeli society condemns such actions (in contrast to the majority of Palestinian society which celebrates such actions. That was my entire point and you agree with me.

Explain to me please why carrying a ten pound bomb into a building is terrorism and dropping a 2000 pound bomb from an airplane is not.

It's not terrorism when people are warned a day in advance to clear the area before being bombed.
Any more of your recursive bullshit?

 

[Slyhunter]

I agree that that view is far more prevalent among Palestinians than Israeli's and the majority of Israeli society condemns such actoins, but the Israeli's are not totally innocent either.

Never did I say that either all Jews or all Israelis are totally innocent. But we agree that "that view" is far more prevalent among Palestinians than Israelis (Jews) and that the majority of Israeli society condemns such actions (in contrast to the majority of Palestinian society which celebrates such actions. That was my entire point and you agree with me.

Explain to me please why carrying a ten pound bomb into a building is terrorism and dropping a 2000 pound bomb from an airplane is not.

different buildings.

 

[montelatici]

I agree that that view is far more prevalent among Palestinians than Israeli's and the majority of Israeli society condemns such actoins, but the Israeli's are not totally innocent either.

Never did I say that either all Jews or all Israelis are totally innocent. But we agree that "that view" is far more prevalent among Palestinians than Israelis (Jews) and that the majority of Israeli society condemns such actions (in contrast to the majority of Palestinian society which celebrates such actions. That was my entire point and you agree with me.

Explain to me please why carrying a ten pound bomb into a building is terrorism and dropping a 2000 pound bomb from an airplane is not.

It's not terrorism when people are warned a day in advance to clear the area before being bombed.
Any more of your recursive bullshit?

No one is warned, that's just Zionist propaganda. It's terrorism.

 

[Indeependent]

I agree that that view is far more prevalent among Palestinians than Israeli's and the majority of Israeli society condemns such actoins, but the Israeli's are not totally innocent either.

Never did I say that either all Jews or all Israelis are totally innocent. But we agree that "that view" is far more prevalent among Palestinians than Israelis (Jews) and that the majority of Israeli society condemns such actions (in contrast to the majority of Palestinian society which celebrates such actions. That was my entire point and you agree with me.

Explain to me please why carrying a ten pound bomb into a building is terrorism and dropping a 2000 pound bomb from an airplane is not.

It's not terrorism when people are warned a day in advance to clear the area before being bombed.
Any more of your recursive bullshit?

No one is warned, that's just Zionist propaganda. It's terrorism.

More bullshit from the "Roman Catholic" who rejects the veracity of the Torah and needs to be excommunicated.

 

[Shusha]

When people make the argument that the Palestinians already have a state (ie Jordan) it's nothing more than a transparent attempt to disenfranchise them.

No. Its not. The Mandate for Palestine consisted of a specific geographical location. It was partitioned into two sections -- one intended to be under Arab (Palestinian) sovereignty and one intended to be under Jewish (Palestinian) sovereignty.

Now, there is the demand that it be partitioned into two more sections -- one intended to be under Arab (Palestinian) sovereignty and one intended to be under Jewish (Palestinian) sovereignty.

Now, there is the demand that it be partitioned into two more sections -- one intended to be under Gazan Arab (Palestinian) sovereignty and one intended to be under Jewish (Palestinian) sovereignty.

Next there will be a demand for it to be partitioned into two more sections -- one for Nazarene Arab (Palestinian) sovereignty and one for Jewish (Palestinian) sovereignty. And then Haifa Arab (Palestinian) sovereignty. And then Negev Arab (Palestinian) sovereignty. Sooner or later it has to stop. Sooner or later people have to recognize that some land must be for the Jewish people.



What makes Jordanians different from Palestinians? They share the same language, same religion, same culture, same laws, same mode of dress, same foods. Why are Palestinians deserving of yet another State?

 

[montelatici]

As our Bible states:

Hebrews 8:13

"By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear."

 

[P F Tinmore]

I agree that that view is far more prevalent among Palestinians than Israeli's and the majority of Israeli society condemns such actoins, but the Israeli's are not totally innocent either.

Never did I say that either all Jews or all Israelis are totally innocent. But we agree that "that view" is far more prevalent among Palestinians than Israelis (Jews) and that the majority of Israeli society condemns such actions (in contrast to the majority of Palestinian society which celebrates such actions. That was my entire point and you agree with me.

Explain to me please why carrying a ten pound bomb into a building is terrorism and dropping a 2000 pound bomb from an airplane is not.

It's not terrorism when people are warned a day in advance to clear the area before being bombed.
Any more of your recursive bullshit?

The people of Sderot knew in advance that they were going to get rockets.

What is your point.

 

[Indeependent]

As our Bible states:

Hebrews 8:13

"By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear."

Nice try...you said the OT was fairy tales.
That statement gets you excommunicated.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I agree that that view is far more prevalent among Palestinians than Israeli's and the majority of Israeli society condemns such actoins, but the Israeli's are not totally innocent either.

Never did I say that either all Jews or all Israelis are totally innocent. But we agree that "that view" is far more prevalent among Palestinians than Israelis (Jews) and that the majority of Israeli society condemns such actions (in contrast to the majority of Palestinian society which celebrates such actions. That was my entire point and you agree with me.

Explain to me please why carrying a ten pound bomb into a building is terrorism and dropping a 2000 pound bomb from an airplane is not.

different buildings.

OK, but Israel specifically targets families.

 

[montelatici]

[QUOTE="Coyote, post: 13184836, member: 19170"
When people make the argument that the Palestinians already have a state (ie Jordan) it's nothing more than a transparent attempt to disenfranchise them.

No. Its not. The Mandate for Palestine consisted of a specific geographical location. It was partitioned into two sections -- one intended to be under Arab (Palestinian) sovereignty and one intended to be under Jewish (Palestinian) sovereignty.

Now, there is the demand that it be partitioned into two more sections -- one intended to be under Arab (Palestinian) sovereignty and one intended to be under Jewish (Palestinian) sovereignty.

Now, there is the demand that it be partitioned into two more sections -- one intended to be under Gazan Arab (Palestinian) sovereignty and one intended to be under Jewish (Palestinian) sovereignty.

Next there will be a demand for it to be partitioned into two more sections -- one for Nazarene Arab (Palestinian) sovereignty and one for Jewish (Palestinian) sovereignty. And then Haifa Arab (Palestinian) sovereignty. And then Negev Arab (Palestinian) sovereignty. Sooner or later it has to stop. Sooner or later people have to recognize that some land must be for the Jewish people.



What makes Jordanians different from Palestinians? They share the same language, same religion, same culture, same laws, same mode of dress, same foods. Why are Palestinians deserving of yet another State?[/QUOTE]


TransJordania was a Bedouin land, part of Arabia, no Christians. Palestinians were 20% Christian and were Levantine people, not Bedouins.