The Palestine Solution

[Hollie]

So given that - how can you determine who has a greater "tie" or "right" to be there?

Be clear on my position. My criteria is very broad and very simple and can be applied universally: is there a self-identifying, culturally recognizable group of people with historical ties to the territory in question? Do they want self-determination? Then they should get it.

I agree with your conclusion - I just don't see the means to determine it. How far back in history do you go to determine "historical ties"? How do you untangle the snarl of historical claims in lands where migrations and invasions have been frequent? You have multiple groups with overlapping claims.

Personally, I think using genetic testing to support or deny a people's right to self-identification and self-determination to be heinous. Its technology-assisted racism. People's rights should be no more based on their mDNA or haplotype than on their skin color or the shapes of their noses.

Agree, and when it's used to try to determine legitimacy, it's only purpose is to disenfranchise the claims of the other side.

Near as I can tell, I am the only person on this whole forum not trying to deny rights to the "other" group or claim that one group's rights supercede or replace the other's.

No, I agree with you - both sides have a just claim. The indiginous population consisted of a variety of ethnic and religious people that included Jews, Christians, Muslims, Druze and other smaller sects. You can say any one is an "invader" or a "squatters" etc. - historically, they've been there a long time.

The issue is how to divide the pie when they don't get along.

Then again, how do you divide the pie when one keeps eating it during fake peace talks?

Agreed.

The Avalon Project : Hamas Covenant 1988

 

[Billo_Really]

Then you win a seegar, Billy O.

And you win a new avatar!






As far as the Palestinian solution is concerned, what needs to happen is for Israel to obey international law and stop acting like it lives by a different set of rules than everyone else.

 

[Shusha]

Then again, how do you divide the pie when one keeps eating it during fake peace talks?

Your analogy is faulty. Israel is not eating the pie. Or pieces of the pie.

What Israel is doing is permitting the Jewish people to move onto land and then protecting them. What Israel is doing is placing pieces of pepperoni on a cheese pizza.

And the Palestinians are saying, "There must not be any pepperoni on our pizza (which is racism, of course).

So Israel says,"No worries, we get that you don't like pepperoni, so we'll take the ones with the pepperoni and you can have these pieces over here which have no pepperoni on it -- the same size pieces and the same number of pieces. 4 for you and 4 for us. No problem."

And the Palestinians say, "No! no! We must have that particular piece of pizza. But you must remove all the pepperoni (which is ethnic cleansing -- removing people due to their ethnicity).

The reason why there is no peace, is not that Israel is taking land -- its that Palestinians refuse to have a multi-ethnic, diverse, fair and equal society. (Something which is common to all Muslim nations).

And here's the test to see if you are comfortable with racism and ethnic cleansing being applied equally: if all the Jews must leave Palestine, do all the Arab Palestinians have to leave Israel? Is the point to make two homogeneous States, with none of the "other" in each State? If it is not -- why are you insisting on it for the one side?

 

[montelatici]

Why would the Arabs living Israel leave their homeland. Their ancestors were there long before the European Zionists arrived and dispossessed most of them.

 

[Hollie]

Why would the Arabs living Israel leave their homeland. Their ancestors were there long before the European Zionists arrived and dispossessed most of them.

Arabs living in Israel or in the areas they occupy in Gaza'istan and the West Bank of Israel have no right of return to their homelands in Egypt, Syria, Jordan, etc. They have made themselves into nothing but a financial and political burden.

 

[Shusha]

Why would the Arabs living Israel leave their homeland. Their ancestors were there long before the European Zionists arrived and dispossessed most of them.

Why should the Jewish people have to leave their homeland? Land that they would have been living on for thousands of years if they hadn't been forced out?

And why is it permissible to ethnically cleanse a land for any reason?

Why can't the Palestinians just accept some of the Jewish people as citizens? Seriously, why is that so freaking hard? Wouldn't have anything to do with the whole apes and pigs thing they have learned from the cradle, would it?

 

[montelatici]

The Palestinians have always stated that the inhabitants of Palestine should be afforded citizenship and equal rights regardless of religion. The European Zionists would not accept anything but Jewish rule over the non-Jews.

As early as 1922 the Christian-Muslim Delegation to London said as much, in writing in a letter to the Colonial Office:

"PALESTINE.

CORRESPONDENCE
WITH THE
PALESTINE ARAB DELEGATION
AND THE
ZIONIST ORGANISATION.

Presented to Parliament by Command of His Majesty.
JUNE, 1922.
LONDON:

The Delegation requests that the constitution for Palestine should—

• 
  
  (1) Safeguard the civil, political and economic interests of the People.
  
  (2) Provide for the creation of a national independent Government in accordance with the spirit of paragraph 4, Article 22, of the Covenant of the League of Nations.
  
  (3) Safeguard the legal rights of foreigners.
  
  (4) Guarantee religious equality to all peoples.
  
  (5) Guarantee the rights of minorities.
  
  (6) Guarantee the rights of the Assisting Power.
  

The Delegation is quite confident that the justice of the British Government and its sense of fair play will make it consider the above remarks with a sympathetic mind, since the Delegation's chief object is to lay in Palestine the foundation of a stable Government that would command the respect of the inhabitants and guarantee peace and prosperity to all.

"UK correspondence with Palestine Arab Delegation and Zionist Organization/British policy in Palestine: "Churchill White Paper" - UK documentation Cmd. 1700/Non-UN document (excerpts) (1 July 1922)

 

[Hollie]

The Palestinians have always stated that the inhabitants of Palestine should be afforded citizenship and equal rights regardless of religion. The European Zionists would not accept anything but Jewish rule over the non-Jews.

As early as 1922 the Christian-Muslim Delegation to London said as much, in writing in a letter to the Colonial Office:

"PALESTINE.

CORRESPONDENCE
WITH THE
PALESTINE ARAB DELEGATION
AND THE
ZIONIST ORGANISATION.

Presented to Parliament by Command of His Majesty.
JUNE, 1922.
LONDON:

The Delegation requests that the constitution for Palestine should—

• 
  
  (1) Safeguard the civil, political and economic interests of the People.
  
  (2) Provide for the creation of a national independent Government in accordance with the spirit of paragraph 4, Article 22, of the Covenant of the League of Nations.
  
  (3) Safeguard the legal rights of foreigners.
  
  (4) Guarantee religious equality to all peoples.
  
  (5) Guarantee the rights of minorities.
  
  (6) Guarantee the rights of the Assisting Power.

The Delegation is quite confident that the justice of the British Government and its sense of fair play will make it consider the above remarks with a sympathetic mind, since the Delegation's chief object is to lay in Palestine the foundation of a stable Government that would command the respect of the inhabitants and guarantee peace and prosperity to all.

"UK correspondence with Palestine Arab Delegation and Zionist Organization/British policy in Palestine: "Churchill White Paper" - UK documentation Cmd. 1700/Non-UN document (excerpts) (1 July 1922)

That bit of taqiyya-speak was as pointless then as now.

That Arab invaders had no intention of that list applying to them.

 

[Shusha]

The Palestinians have always stated that the inhabitants of Palestine should be afforded citizenship and equal rights regardless of religion.

Then why can't the Jewish people pray at our own holy site?

 

[montelatici]

The Palestinians have always stated that the inhabitants of Palestine should be afforded citizenship and equal rights regardless of religion.

Then why can't the Jewish people pray at our own holy site?

You would have to ask the Israeli and Jordanian governments. The Palestinians are not a party to the treaty between Jordan and Israel.

 

[Shusha]

The Palestinians have always stated that the inhabitants of Palestine should be afforded citizenship and equal rights regardless of religion.

Then why can't the Jewish people pray at our own holy site?

You would have to ask the Israeli and Jordanian governments. The Palestinians are not a party to the treaty between Jordan and Israel.

But it is the Palestinians who are creating a fuss (a violent fuss) when Jewish people walk on or pray at our holy site. Your claim is that Palestinians support equal rights regardless of religion. IF the Palestinians did support that, surely the Palestinians wouldn't be hiring women to harass Jews and hiring young men to hoard weapons inside the mosque.

 

[aris2chat]

Then again, how do you divide the pie when one keeps eating it during fake peace talks?

Your analogy is faulty. Israel is not eating the pie. Or pieces of the pie.

What Israel is doing is permitting the Jewish people to move onto land and then protecting them. What Israel is doing is placing pieces of pepperoni on a cheese pizza.

And the Palestinians are saying, "There must not be any pepperoni on our pizza (which is racism, of course).

So Israel says,"No worries, we get that you don't like pepperoni, so we'll take the ones with the pepperoni and you can have these pieces over here which have no pepperoni on it -- the same size pieces and the same number of pieces. 4 for you and 4 for us. No problem."

And the Palestinians say, "No! no! We must have that particular piece of pizza. But you must remove all the pepperoni (which is ethnic cleansing -- removing people due to their ethnicity).

The reason why there is no peace, is not that Israel is taking land -- its that Palestinians refuse to have a multi-ethnic, diverse, fair and equal society. (Something which is common to all Muslim nations).

And here's the test to see if you are comfortable with racism and ethnic cleansing being applied equally: if all the Jews must leave Palestine, do all the Arab Palestinians have to leave Israel? Is the point to make two homogeneous States, with none of the "other" in each State? If it is not -- why are you insisting on it for the one side?

People forget how much of the land was owned by jews before '47 or Jordan annexed the WB and palestinians nullified all sales of land to jews years after the fact.

When palestinians end the violence they can sit down and talk to Israel and work out some compromise agreement so there can be a palestinian state that recognizes Israel's right to exist as a jewish state.

 

[montelatici]

Then again, how do you divide the pie when one keeps eating it during fake peace talks?

Your analogy is faulty. Israel is not eating the pie. Or pieces of the pie.

What Israel is doing is permitting the Jewish people to move onto land and then protecting them. What Israel is doing is placing pieces of pepperoni on a cheese pizza.

And the Palestinians are saying, "There must not be any pepperoni on our pizza (which is racism, of course).

So Israel says,"No worries, we get that you don't like pepperoni, so we'll take the ones with the pepperoni and you can have these pieces over here which have no pepperoni on it -- the same size pieces and the same number of pieces. 4 for you and 4 for us. No problem."

And the Palestinians say, "No! no! We must have that particular piece of pizza. But you must remove all the pepperoni (which is ethnic cleansing -- removing people due to their ethnicity).

The reason why there is no peace, is not that Israel is taking land -- its that Palestinians refuse to have a multi-ethnic, diverse, fair and equal society. (Something which is common to all Muslim nations).

And here's the test to see if you are comfortable with racism and ethnic cleansing being applied equally: if all the Jews must leave Palestine, do all the Arab Palestinians have to leave Israel? Is the point to make two homogeneous States, with none of the "other" in each State? If it is not -- why are you insisting on it for the one side?

People forget how much of the land was owned by jews before '47 or Jordan annexed the WB and palestinians nullified all sales of land to jews years after the fact.

When palestinians end the violence they can sit down and talk to Israel and work out some compromise agreement so there can be a palestinian state that recognizes Israel's right to exist as a jewish state.

I know exactly how much land was owned by the Jews before 1947. Less than 5%.

Berman Jewish Policy Archive

A Survey of Palestine Volume 2 | Berman Jewish Policy Archive @ NYU Wagner

 

[Coyote]

Coyote, et al,

And that is the million dollar question...

The issue is how to divide the pie when they don't get along.

(COMMENT)

The US has not learned yet, that it is so very often true --- you cannot just give "peace," and "security" to a people. In most cases --- you cannot just hand over a liberated country to the people.

Not one single faction within the ranks of the Palestinians has demonstrated that they have the necessary abilities, and the prerequisite skills to organized a peace settlement --- let alone the abilities to set-up a productive negotiation framework.

And I get the feel that while the Israeli's have the knowledge, skills and abilities to organize such a framework for peace and negotiate a settlement, --- they would need a hell'of'alot of Oxycodone prescription (for the pain) and 200mg of Thorazine for each delegate (antipsychotic medication) just to maintain an atmosphere of a civil dull roar.

We best remember that the Palestinian is still operating under the Khartoum Resolution, which was: The “Three NOs” with respect to Israel:

• NO peace with Israel
• NO recognition of Israel
• NO negotiations with Israel

Right off the bat, that kind of political position demonstrates the unwillingness to achieve some peaceful solution. They want the conflict to continue because they think they can inflict more political pain on the Israelis --- and that the UN and the Humanitarian strap hangers will insure that Israel is not allowed to develop a strategic military solution and impose peace.

Most Respectfully,
R

When there is justice peace will follow.

I like to think that but I'm not so sure. There is no Nelson Mandella figure to negotiate peace and reconciliation. Without reconciliation can you have true peace and true justice? I'm thinking about countries like the former Rhodesia where "justice" turned into vengeance.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Then again, how do you divide the pie when one keeps eating it during fake peace talks?

Your analogy is faulty. Israel is not eating the pie. Or pieces of the pie.

What Israel is doing is permitting the Jewish people to move onto land and then protecting them. What Israel is doing is placing pieces of pepperoni on a cheese pizza.

And the Palestinians are saying, "There must not be any pepperoni on our pizza (which is racism, of course).

So Israel says,"No worries, we get that you don't like pepperoni, so we'll take the ones with the pepperoni and you can have these pieces over here which have no pepperoni on it -- the same size pieces and the same number of pieces. 4 for you and 4 for us. No problem."

And the Palestinians say, "No! no! We must have that particular piece of pizza. But you must remove all the pepperoni (which is ethnic cleansing -- removing people due to their ethnicity).

The reason why there is no peace, is not that Israel is taking land -- its that Palestinians refuse to have a multi-ethnic, diverse, fair and equal society. (Something which is common to all Muslim nations).

And here's the test to see if you are comfortable with racism and ethnic cleansing being applied equally: if all the Jews must leave Palestine, do all the Arab Palestinians have to leave Israel? Is the point to make two homogeneous States, with none of the "other" in each State? If it is not -- why are you insisting on it for the one side?

People forget how much of the land was owned by jews before '47 or Jordan annexed the WB and palestinians nullified all sales of land to jews years after the fact.

When palestinians end the violence they can sit down and talk to Israel and work out some compromise agreement so there can be a palestinian state that recognizes Israel's right to exist as a jewish state.

It is Israel's war. Only Israel can end the violence.

 

[Hollie]

Then again, how do you divide the pie when one keeps eating it during fake peace talks?

Your analogy is faulty. Israel is not eating the pie. Or pieces of the pie.

What Israel is doing is permitting the Jewish people to move onto land and then protecting them. What Israel is doing is placing pieces of pepperoni on a cheese pizza.

And the Palestinians are saying, "There must not be any pepperoni on our pizza (which is racism, of course).

So Israel says,"No worries, we get that you don't like pepperoni, so we'll take the ones with the pepperoni and you can have these pieces over here which have no pepperoni on it -- the same size pieces and the same number of pieces. 4 for you and 4 for us. No problem."

And the Palestinians say, "No! no! We must have that particular piece of pizza. But you must remove all the pepperoni (which is ethnic cleansing -- removing people due to their ethnicity).

The reason why there is no peace, is not that Israel is taking land -- its that Palestinians refuse to have a multi-ethnic, diverse, fair and equal society. (Something which is common to all Muslim nations).

And here's the test to see if you are comfortable with racism and ethnic cleansing being applied equally: if all the Jews must leave Palestine, do all the Arab Palestinians have to leave Israel? Is the point to make two homogeneous States, with none of the "other" in each State? If it is not -- why are you insisting on it for the one side?

People forget how much of the land was owned by jews before '47 or Jordan annexed the WB and palestinians nullified all sales of land to jews years after the fact.

When palestinians end the violence they can sit down and talk to Israel and work out some compromise agreement so there can be a palestinian state that recognizes Israel's right to exist as a jewish state.

It is Israel's war. Only Israel can end the violence.

Nonsense. Read the Hamas Charter.

 

[Hollie]

Then again, how do you divide the pie when one keeps eating it during fake peace talks?

Your analogy is faulty. Israel is not eating the pie. Or pieces of the pie.

What Israel is doing is permitting the Jewish people to move onto land and then protecting them. What Israel is doing is placing pieces of pepperoni on a cheese pizza.

And the Palestinians are saying, "There must not be any pepperoni on our pizza (which is racism, of course).

So Israel says,"No worries, we get that you don't like pepperoni, so we'll take the ones with the pepperoni and you can have these pieces over here which have no pepperoni on it -- the same size pieces and the same number of pieces. 4 for you and 4 for us. No problem."

And the Palestinians say, "No! no! We must have that particular piece of pizza. But you must remove all the pepperoni (which is ethnic cleansing -- removing people due to their ethnicity).

The reason why there is no peace, is not that Israel is taking land -- its that Palestinians refuse to have a multi-ethnic, diverse, fair and equal society. (Something which is common to all Muslim nations).

And here's the test to see if you are comfortable with racism and ethnic cleansing being applied equally: if all the Jews must leave Palestine, do all the Arab Palestinians have to leave Israel? Is the point to make two homogeneous States, with none of the "other" in each State? If it is not -- why are you insisting on it for the one side?

People forget how much of the land was owned by jews before '47 or Jordan annexed the WB and palestinians nullified all sales of land to jews years after the fact.

When palestinians end the violence they can sit down and talk to Israel and work out some compromise agreement so there can be a palestinian state that recognizes Israel's right to exist as a jewish state.

I know exactly how much land was owned by the Jews before 1947. Less than 5%.

View attachment 58410

Berman Jewish Policy Archive

A Survey of Palestine Volume 2 | Berman Jewish Policy Archive @ NYU Wagner

That's not surprising as the greater Arab population would have been the result of the Ottoman colonizers who had earlier invaded the area.

 

[Indeependent]

Then again, how do you divide the pie when one keeps eating it during fake peace talks?

Your analogy is faulty. Israel is not eating the pie. Or pieces of the pie.

What Israel is doing is permitting the Jewish people to move onto land and then protecting them. What Israel is doing is placing pieces of pepperoni on a cheese pizza.

And the Palestinians are saying, "There must not be any pepperoni on our pizza (which is racism, of course).

So Israel says,"No worries, we get that you don't like pepperoni, so we'll take the ones with the pepperoni and you can have these pieces over here which have no pepperoni on it -- the same size pieces and the same number of pieces. 4 for you and 4 for us. No problem."

And the Palestinians say, "No! no! We must have that particular piece of pizza. But you must remove all the pepperoni (which is ethnic cleansing -- removing people due to their ethnicity).

The reason why there is no peace, is not that Israel is taking land -- its that Palestinians refuse to have a multi-ethnic, diverse, fair and equal society. (Something which is common to all Muslim nations).

And here's the test to see if you are comfortable with racism and ethnic cleansing being applied equally: if all the Jews must leave Palestine, do all the Arab Palestinians have to leave Israel? Is the point to make two homogeneous States, with none of the "other" in each State? If it is not -- why are you insisting on it for the one side?

People forget how much of the land was owned by jews before '47 or Jordan annexed the WB and palestinians nullified all sales of land to jews years after the fact.

When palestinians end the violence they can sit down and talk to Israel and work out some compromise agreement so there can be a palestinian state that recognizes Israel's right to exist as a jewish state.

It is Israel's war. Only Israel can end the violence.

Nonsense. Read the Hamas Charter.

Tinmore's copy of the Hamas Charter is different than yours; or anybody else's.

 

[montelatici]

Then again, how do you divide the pie when one keeps eating it during fake peace talks?

Your analogy is faulty. Israel is not eating the pie. Or pieces of the pie.

What Israel is doing is permitting the Jewish people to move onto land and then protecting them. What Israel is doing is placing pieces of pepperoni on a cheese pizza.

And the Palestinians are saying, "There must not be any pepperoni on our pizza (which is racism, of course).

So Israel says,"No worries, we get that you don't like pepperoni, so we'll take the ones with the pepperoni and you can have these pieces over here which have no pepperoni on it -- the same size pieces and the same number of pieces. 4 for you and 4 for us. No problem."

And the Palestinians say, "No! no! We must have that particular piece of pizza. But you must remove all the pepperoni (which is ethnic cleansing -- removing people due to their ethnicity).

The reason why there is no peace, is not that Israel is taking land -- its that Palestinians refuse to have a multi-ethnic, diverse, fair and equal society. (Something which is common to all Muslim nations).

And here's the test to see if you are comfortable with racism and ethnic cleansing being applied equally: if all the Jews must leave Palestine, do all the Arab Palestinians have to leave Israel? Is the point to make two homogeneous States, with none of the "other" in each State? If it is not -- why are you insisting on it for the one side?

People forget how much of the land was owned by jews before '47 or Jordan annexed the WB and palestinians nullified all sales of land to jews years after the fact.

When palestinians end the violence they can sit down and talk to Israel and work out some compromise agreement so there can be a palestinian state that recognizes Israel's right to exist as a jewish state.

It is Israel's war. Only Israel can end the violence.

Nonsense. Read the Hamas Charter.

Tinmore's copy of the Hamas Charter is different than yours; or anybody else's.

What does the Hamas charter have to do with anything? It has as much to with the issue as the Likud Charter which states in part:


"....... Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.

A plan which relinquishes parts of western Eretz Israel, undermines our right to the country, unavoidably leads to the establishment of a "Palestinian State," jeopardizes the security of the Jewish population, endangers the existence of the State of Israel......"

 

[Hollie]

Your analogy is faulty. Israel is not eating the pie. Or pieces of the pie.

What Israel is doing is permitting the Jewish people to move onto land and then protecting them. What Israel is doing is placing pieces of pepperoni on a cheese pizza.

And the Palestinians are saying, "There must not be any pepperoni on our pizza (which is racism, of course).

So Israel says,"No worries, we get that you don't like pepperoni, so we'll take the ones with the pepperoni and you can have these pieces over here which have no pepperoni on it -- the same size pieces and the same number of pieces. 4 for you and 4 for us. No problem."

And the Palestinians say, "No! no! We must have that particular piece of pizza. But you must remove all the pepperoni (which is ethnic cleansing -- removing people due to their ethnicity).

The reason why there is no peace, is not that Israel is taking land -- its that Palestinians refuse to have a multi-ethnic, diverse, fair and equal society. (Something which is common to all Muslim nations).

And here's the test to see if you are comfortable with racism and ethnic cleansing being applied equally: if all the Jews must leave Palestine, do all the Arab Palestinians have to leave Israel? Is the point to make two homogeneous States, with none of the "other" in each State? If it is not -- why are you insisting on it for the one side?

People forget how much of the land was owned by jews before '47 or Jordan annexed the WB and palestinians nullified all sales of land to jews years after the fact.

When palestinians end the violence they can sit down and talk to Israel and work out some compromise agreement so there can be a palestinian state that recognizes Israel's right to exist as a jewish state.

It is Israel's war. Only Israel can end the violence.

Nonsense. Read the Hamas Charter.

Tinmore's copy of the Hamas Charter is different than yours; or anybody else's.

What does the Hamas charter have to do with anything? It has as much to with the issue as the Likud Charter which states in part:


"....... Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.

A plan which relinquishes parts of western Eretz Israel, undermines our right to the country, unavoidably leads to the establishment of a "Palestinian State," jeopardizes the security of the Jewish population, endangers the existence of the State of Israel......"

The Hamas Charter has everything to do with Arab-Islamist fascism.

You should take the time to read it so you can perhaps respond with a middling amount of relevant commentary.