The Marine Corps has trained its final 8 scout snipers

[Rambunctious]

Cool story. You still don’t know or understand the current mission requirements as well as the budgetary and personnel limitations better than the Commandant. So there’s that.

Its common sense... if you are going to send out a recon team you need to be as stealth as possible and a sniper with a M40 is something I would want with me as a recon Lt.....

 

[Couchpotato]

It’s common sense... if you are going to send out a recon team you need to be as stealth as possible and a sniper with a M40 is something I would want with me as a recon Lt.....

What’s common sense is that YOU don’t know better than the CMC. Of that I am quite certain.

 

[Mushroom]

HQ MC and the CMC. All people who know and understand the mission and the requirements of the Marine Corps today and in the future exponentially better than you do.

The same people who decided the Marines did not need tanks, and squads did not need automatic weapons.

 

[Mushroom]

I was active duty Marines for 23 years and reserves for 7...

Does not matter, they know far more than anybody who ever served in the Corps.

If you don't believe it, just ask them.

 

[JGalt]

Which is what, exactly?

In the last several years I have watched them remove the automatic weapon from the Rifle Squad, and the Tanks completely.

And what is it about their mission that does not need scouts?

Please inform us, what is that mission? Because the job of a Scout-Sniper is a hell of a lot more than just being a sniper.

It all started when our military started phasing out bayonets.

Make bayonets great again.

 

[Mushroom]

It all started when our military started phasing out bayonets.

What? They are not phased out. I have no idea what gives you that idea.

The current standard issue bayonet is the M9, which also doubles as wire cutters.

 

[JGalt]

What? They are not phased out. I have no idea what gives you that idea.

The current standard issue bayonet is the M9, which also doubles as wire cutters.

My mistake. I thought the Army tried to phase them out back when Obama was president.

One less skill for soldiers to master at boot camp: bayonet training

 

[Mushroom]

My mistake. I thought the Army tried to phase them out back when Obama was president.

One less skill for soldiers to master at boot camp: bayonet training

Just because they do not do bayonet training as part of basic does not mean they do not issue them.

However, only Infantry is now trained in their use in the Army. Which I can kind of understand, it's not like most others would ever need to use one. But I can't see the Marines ever phasing the training out. They still keep the mindset that "everybody is Infantry".

 

[Couchpotato]

The level of arrogance shown in this thread by the all people "Monday morning QB'ing" these decisions is truly astonishing.

Mushroom Rambunctious rampart 1srelluc

Whether you were in the game in the past or not you arent in the game now. I played it as long if not longer than any of you, and probably more recently.

You don't even know what game is being played anymore. You don't know the rules, the players or where they will be playing the game. You dont know the equipment, capabilities, what's on the horizon, the tactical and national level capabilities that can be brought to bear on the modern battlefield. You have no intel, or information about current and future threats, You don't even know what the Marine Corps has been tasked with. In other words, you don't know shit. All you know is the game you played and likely at a low level. Here's a clue. It aint the same game and you don't know better than the guys who are actually playing right now. The notion that you know better than people with access to all the above and whose job it is to make these decisions is laughable, and everyone IS laughing at you for acting like you do. So please stop embarrassing yourselves and take the L on this one you earned it.

 

[Couchpotato]

The same people who decided the Marines did not need tanks, and squads did not need automatic weapons.

Again, I'll ask are you aware of the Marine Corps primary mission, and how do tanks fit into accomplishing that mission?

M27 IAR, the primary rifle issued to Marine riflemen is an automatic weapon. You are trading rate of fire for accuracy, weight, inability of the enemy to identify the machine gunner, and is more reliable than the SAW. The M249 SAW didnt go away they are just held at the Platoon level and can be deployed at the discretion of the Plt Commander.

So again talking out of your ass.

 

[Rambunctious]

The level of arrogance shown in this thread by the all people "Monday morning QB'ing" these decisions is truly astonishing.

Mushroom Rambunctious rampart 1srelluc

Whether you were in the game in the past or not you arent in the game now. I played it as long if not longer than any of you, and probably more recently.

You don't even know what game is being played anymore. You don't know the rules, the players or where they will be playing the game. You dont know the equipment, capabilities, what's on the horizon, the tactical and national level capabilities that can be brought to bear on the modern battlefield. You have no intel, or information about current and future threats, You don't even know what the Marine Corps has been tasked with. In other words, you don't know shit. All you know is the game you played and likely at a low level. Here's a clue. It aint the same game and you don't know better than the guys who are actually playing right now. The notion that you know better than people with access to all the above and whose job it is to make these decisions is laughable, and everyone IS laughing at you for acting like you do. So please stop embarrassing yourselves and take the L on this one you earned it.

What game are you talking about?..... Modern battlefield?... you sound like a GI Joe comic book writer... I know enough to know combat units on sorties in dangerous areas want a sniper with them... I spent 30 years as a Marine two deployments in Afghanistan and one in Iraq and snipers were critical parts of every unit that left the green zone...
You filled a whole page with words that ends up saying nothing...

 

[Rambunctious]

Maybe the truth is there aren't enough young men who know how to shoot... people don't grow up with guns today as they once did... the marksmen I served with were hunters and hunted their whole life... teaching those guys to be snipers was hard and costly enough... now try and teach someone who never fired a rifle how to be a sniper...
Today I guess you are suppose to stay down and call in air support to remove a threat....
Every Marine must be able to bullseye at 500 meters just to move on from boot camp....
Snipers with an M40 can hit targets up to 1500 meters.....
To take that away from combat units is reckless at best...

 

[1srelluc]

The level of arrogance shown in this thread by the all people "Monday morning QB'ing" these decisions is truly astonishing.

Mushroom Rambunctious rampart 1srelluc

Whether you were in the game in the past or not you arent in the game now. I played it as long if not longer than any of you, and probably more recently.

You don't even know what game is being played anymore. You don't know the rules, the players or where they will be playing the game. You dont know the equipment, capabilities, what's on the horizon, the tactical and national level capabilities that can be brought to bear on the modern battlefield. You have no intel, or information about current and future threats, You don't even know what the Marine Corps has been tasked with. In other words, you don't know shit. All you know is the game you played and likely at a low level. Here's a clue. It aint the same game and you don't know better than the guys who are actually playing right now. The notion that you know better than people with access to all the above and whose job it is to make these decisions is laughable, and everyone IS laughing at you for acting like you do. So please stop embarrassing yourselves and take the L on this one you earned it.

 

[Couchpotato]

What game are you talking about?..... Modern battlefield?... you sound like a GI Joe comic book writer... I know enough to know combat units on sorties in dangerous areas want a sniper with them... I spent 30 years as a Marine two deployments in Afghanistan and one in Iraq and snipers were critical parts of every unit that left the green zone...
You filled a whole page with words that ends up saying nothing...

Maybe the truth is there aren't enough young men who know how to shoot... people don't grow up with guns today as they once did... the marksmen I served with were hunters and hunted their whole life... teaching those guys to be snipers was hard and costly enough... now try and teach someone who never fired a rifle how to be a sniper...
Today I guess you are suppose to stay down and call in air support to remove a threat....
Every Marine must be able to bullseye at 500 meters just to move on from boot camp....
Snipers with an M40 can hit targets up to 1500 meters.....
To take that away from combat units is reckless at best...

They aren’t getting rid of the sniper MOS you stupid bastard.

 

[Mushroom]

Again, I'll ask are you aware of the Marine Corps primary mission, and how do tanks fit into accomplishing that mission?

M27 IAR, the primary rifle issued to Marine riflemen is an automatic weapon. You are trading rate of fire for accuracy, weight, inability of the enemy to identify the machine gunner, and is more reliable than the SAW. The M249 SAW didnt go away they are just held at the Platoon level and can be deployed at the discretion of the Plt Commander.

So again talking out of your ass.

Horse pucky.

It is not an "automatic weapon", it is simply another variant of the M-16. It fires from 30 round magazines from a closed bolt position. That is nothing like a belt fed automatic weapon that fires from the open bolt. By your definition the original M16 is an automatic weapon also. And a hell of a lot of people in the higher echelon also question that, including former Commandant General Conway.

https://web.archive.org/web/20131031102022/http://sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=1445

And sorry, "held at the platoon level"? You know that is completely nonsensical, right? Are you even aware of what the freaking TO&E is of a Marine Rifle Platoon? To start with, there is no "Weapon Section", that is at the Company and Battalion level (where you find the M240, M2, and Mk19). The Marine Rifle Platoon is three squads, each of which is composed of three fire teams. There is no "Weapon Section" in a platoon. So unless they are held by the members of those Rifle Squads, there is no being "held at the Platoon level".

You see, this is the difference between actually having been an Infantryman and working in such an organization, and you where it is theoretical and apparently all made up. Now where exactly are they held at the "platoon level"? I can tell you where they were held, and that was by the Automatic Rifleman in each fire team. So which is it, because you are apparently saying they are both there and not there. I guess we should call it "Schrödinger's Machine Gun".

And when talking about an automatic weapon, rate of sustained fire is everything. The mission of one is far less about actually killing the weapon than it is providing suppressing fire. To force the enemy to keep their heads down so the element can either provide more accurate fire, or so they can redeploy to another position.

You are the one talking out your ass here. And please, what about the tank does not fit the mission? We have only been using them successfully for over 8 decades, and they proved their importance all the way back at Tarawa and Okinawa. So how about trying to tell us how a tank or squad based automatic weapon do not fit the mission of the Marine Corps?

 

[Mushroom]

They aren’t getting rid of the sniper MOS you stupid bastard.

True, but they are being removed from the Infantry Battalions. And they are being relocated to Reconnaissance Battalions, which are a Division asset.

So great, Force Recon now gets them. How exactly does that help the Battalion Commander? You have taken away their eyes and ears, because I can bet dollars to doughnuts that will almost never happen. First of all because there are not enough in Force Recon to support all of the Battalions. There is only a single Force Recon Battalion in each Infantry Division, and they have their own missions to do. I can't see 2nd Force Recon sending off platoons to support each of the dozen or more Battalions in the Division.

And yes, Battalion Commanders have been complaining that this is removing their "eyes and ears". So tell me, exactly in what way does removing the reconnaissance platoon of each Battalion help the mission?

 

[Rambunctious]

They aren’t getting rid of the sniper MOS you stupid bastard.

Isn't the entire thread about the Marine Corps. training its last 8 snipers?.... sounds like that MOS is no longer available...
Placing them in recon units only leaves other units without them...

 

[Mushroom]

I spent 30 years as a Marine two deployments in Afghanistan and one in Iraq and snipers were critical parts of every unit that left the green zone

And it was the same way when I was in. STA was a critical part of any operation we conducted, even if not actually operating as snipers. Their most important task is operating as scouts. Being the forward element of the Battalion, looking for trouble on the route of march, or checking out the area the Battalion will be settling down in before they get there. Or going out and actually looking for the enemy, and if need be calling down fire upon them.

And it is the same in every combat organization I have served in, Army and Marine. The Battalions always had their own organic recon element, that operated under the Battalion Commander. They were not some Division level asset that had to be requested, and could be denied or taken away at any time. The recon teams always answered directly to the Battalion, sometimes even at Company-Battery levels also.

 

[Mushroom]

Isn't the entire thread about the Marine Corps. training its last 8 snipers?.... sounds like that MOS is no longer available...
Placing them in recon units only leaves other units without them...

Well, it was never really an MOS, it was a secondary MOS. Kinda like an 8151, or Marine Security Guard. An MOS that was attained through school or training, but appended to those of an Infantry MOS that completed the requirements. Or an 0931 PMI.

To me, the problem is much less about the cancelling of the school as it is that they are removing the recon element from the Battalions. And it is painfully obvious that most do not comprehend how differently the Corps operates from the Army. The Army quite often operates in Brigade and Division sized elements. Where it is more about the sheer number of people they can throw into an operation than anything else. One will rarely hear of a lone Army Battalion going out and doing missions.

However, that is actually the norm for the Marines. It has long been centered upon the Battalions themselves, operating largely independently of other organizations with all of their support organic to the Battalion. This would be like if the Army decided to remove all the aviation assets from their Airborne and Air Assault divisions, and instead assigning them all to a pool for the Army. And if 82nd wants to do a drop somewhere, they have to request those assets to be assigned to them to do the mission.

Removing STA from the Battalions is about as moronic as removing BAS and deciding it is better to hold all of the medical in a single Division level asset. Or removing all of the Comms and Vehicles and putting them all in a single Division level radio shack or motor pool. Because I can guarantee that in the future Battalion Commanders will need those assets, and they will be told they are unavailable.

And yes, I have a hell of a lot of respect for Force Recon, just as I do for FAST Company. However, both of those are elite and highly trained groups, and their training and organization has far more important things to do than to be wasted doing recon for a Battalion or standing as a gate guard at a Navy base. Those are the jobs of the 0317 and 8151, not somebody that has as much training as they do. It is akin to an ASE Master Mechanic only doing oil changes. Or an CNE or CNI only spending their time crimping CAT5 cables.

 

[Rambunctious]

Well, it was never really an MOS, it was a secondary MOS. Kinda like an 8151, or Marine Security Guard. An MOS that was attained through school or training, but appended to those of an Infantry MOS that completed the requirements. Or an 0931 PMI.

To me, the problem is much less about the cancelling of the school as it is that they are removing the recon element from the Battalions. And it is painfully obvious that most do not comprehend how differently the Corps operates from the Army. The Army quite often operates in Brigade and Division sized elements. Where it is more about the sheer number of people they can throw into an operation than anything else. One will rarely hear of a lone Army Battalion going out and doing missions.

However, that is actually the norm for the Marines. It has long been centered upon the Battalions themselves, operating largely independently of other organizations with all of their support organic to the Battalion. This would be like if the Army decided to remove all the aviation assets from their Airborne and Air Assault divisions, and instead assigning them all to a pool for the Army. And if 82nd wants to do a drop somewhere, they have to request those assets to be assigned to them to do the mission.

Removing STA from the Battalions is about as moronic as removing BAS and deciding it is better to hold all of the medical in a single Division level asset. Or removing all of the Comms and Vehicles and putting them all in a single Division level radio shack or motor pool. Because I can guarantee that in the future Battalion Commanders will need those assets, and they will be told they are unavailable.

And yes, I have a hell of a lot of respect for Force Recon, just as I do for FAST Company. However, both of those are elite and highly trained groups, and their training and organization has far more important things to do than to be wasted doing recon for a Battalion or standing as a gate guard at a Navy base. Those are the jobs of the 0317 and 8151, not somebody that has as much training as they do. It is akin to an ASE Master Mechanic only doing oil changes. Or an CNE or CNI only spending their time crimping CAT5 cables.

Thank you its a badly worded link in my opinion... You cleared it up so thanks... I was in logistics so I didn't leave the base very often... But snipers are a valuable tool for any team... Not sure why Couchpotato is so angry....