The homefront is slowly collapsing in Russia

Not everything is Nazi Germany. Every dictator isn’t Hitler. Is the only lesson from WW2 that anyone who isn’t a warhawk Neville Cbamberlain? Even if what you say is true where is he going to go? Russia can’t push any further into Eastern Europe but through a NATO ally. If that happens which is very highly unlikely we deal with it. The Ukrainians want to end the war. Is it worth killing untold amounts of people and wrecking Ukraine more than it already is because Putin might invade more of Ukraine?
Each and every time that a dictator-ruler of a large-scale military power has been conceded land he always comes back for more.

Always.

Peace-At-Any-Price is, in the long-run, No Peace at all.

Europe knows this.

And they do not have oceans on either side of them to serve as anti-tank ditches.
 
Why do we see this propaganda coming from today's left? The truth is that Ukraine is collapsing and the crazy American left is desperate to interfere with the peace process promoted by Trump.
 
So buying time was the sensible thing to do.
Buying time was not Chamberlain's intent... an aversion to war at any cost was the basis for his appeasement of the Nazis.

MOre to the point, Munich happened because they were trying to avoid a war. The war is already here.
And the question now becomes... aid a valiant resisting country now or face a victorious land-hungry dictator later.

The war has reached a stalemate.
Only because there are still considerable limits on the weaponry being supplied to Ukraine.

And, insofar as manpower is concerned, if the Russians can import scores of thousands of mercenaries, so should the Ukrainians.


...if Ukraine is the best Russia can do, they aren't a threat to the US or Europe. It will probably take them a decade to replace all the equipment they've expended.
A decade is a heartbeat in the life of a Nation.

Russia will retool, regroup, rearm, and incorporate into future strategy and tactics, all they've learned in Ukraine.

Assuming that The West is stupid enough to give them the breathing space to do that.

We've seen such Dishonorable Peace > Re-Arm > Attack Again tactics out of Russia on multiple occasions in the past century or so, and we (and The West at-large) would do well to recall that cheating, vicious Russian imperialistic mindset.

The Europeans have more "sense" about this - for once - than we do... fat-and-sassy behind our two wide oceans.

Oceans which don't mean anywhere NEAR as much for long-term national safety as they once did.

But it is the Fate of Man to forget the lessons of the past and to take the Easy Way Out, so... go right ahead and Appease.
 
Each and every time that a dictator-ruler of a large-scale military power has been conceded land he always comes back for more.
China invaded Tibet in 1950 nothing since then. I guess if you drag it out over a long enough timeline this is true as China could still invade some other country. Russia invaded Georgia in 2008. Georgia is still a country; they never went back.
See above.
Peace-At-Any-Price is, in the long-run, No Peace at all.

Europe knows this.

And they do not have oceans on either side of them to serve as anti-tank ditches.
As Joe said this deal doesn't avert a war it ends one. A war which has been stalemated for years. Neither the Russians nor the Ukrainians have made significant advances basically since the war began. A war in which the populations on both sides want to end. As usual it's only the people who don't have to fight the war who are interested in either starting or continuing it.

Let's assume for a minute that you are right though. That this is merely a stalling tactic before Russia invades again. How will we be worse off in future than we currently are?

Now lets assume that Russia somehow conquers Ukraine in this future. Russia has nowhere to go outside of Ukraine without running into a NATO country. If the Russian Army can't over run a country of 35 million, they are going to do so to an alliance that's made up for almost a billion people with a far bigger and more advanced military?

The saddest part of this entire saga is that I truly believe that most of the people who are against ending this war do so because they don't want Trump to get credit for ending it.
 
Buying time was not Chamberlain's intent... an aversion to war at any cost was the basis for his appeasement of the Nazis.

Actually, buying time was exactly his intent. After Munich, the UK stepped up its rearmament programs

What everyone forgets about 1930s diplomacy is that the Democratic West didn't see Fascism as a threat; they saw it as a bulwark against Bolshevism, which is why they tolerated Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Horthy, and Chiang Kai-Shek. The Official name of the "Axis" was the "Anti-Comintern Pact", they were resisting those dirty, stinking commies.

If anything, Chamberlain did what you wanted, he wrote the Polish Colonels a blank check and got a war anyway. That resulted in Hitler cutting a deal with Stalin. (Kind of blowing a hole in that anti-Commie thing, but never mind.)

And the question now becomes... aid a valiant resisting country now or face a victorious land-hungry dictator later.

No, the question is, do we keep throwing good money after bad? This is the Sunk Cost Fallacy. We've invested a significant amount of money, time, resources, and lives into an effort that has yielded no results, so we must continue to invest our time and resources.

Not that I think Trump is capable of being this deep a thinker, he's the dumbest man we've ever elected. But some of the people around him realize this.

Only because there are still considerable limits on the weaponry being supplied to Ukraine.

And, insofar as manpower is concerned, if the Russians can import scores of thousands of mercenaries, so should the Ukrainians.

Um, where are these mercenaries going to come from? Does "Soldier of Fortune" still publish?

A decade is a heartbeat in the life of a Nation.

Russia will retool, regroup, rearm, and incorporate into future strategy and tactics, all they've learned in Ukraine.

Assuming that The West is stupid enough to give them the breathing space to do that.

Meh, not really. If anything, Russia has been on a steady decline in her power and international influence since the 1980s. We should be a lot more concerned with China. (And I think our fears of China are overblown, for that matter.)

We've seen such Dishonorable Peace > Re-Arm > Attack Again tactics out of Russia on multiple occasions in the past century or so, and we (and The West at-large) would do well to recall that cheating, vicious Russian imperialistic mindset.

Really? Name one. Actually, what we've seen in the past century is the West consistently trying to screw Russia, such as giving the aforementioned pass to the Axis. When circumstances forced us to align with them, we were almost immediately treating them as the enemy after the war.

The Europeans have more "sense" about this - for once - than we do... fat-and-sassy behind our two wide oceans.

Oceans which don't mean anywhere NEAR as much for long-term national safety as they once did.

But it is the Fate of Man to forget the lessons of the past and to take the Easy Way Out, so... go right ahead and Appease.

The Europeans caused this problem as much as the Russians have. They were the ones who instigated the Maidan Revolution against Yanukovich after he rejected their crappy deal for a better one with Russia. (And Obama was an idiot for going along with it.)

Putin is an asshole. He's not Hitler.
 
China invaded Tibet in 1950 nothing since then. I guess if you drag it out over a long enough timeline this is true as China could still invade some other country. Russia invaded Georgia in 2008. Georgia is still a country; they never went back.
China went no further because the Himalayas-to-China are like the Alps-to-Hannibal (Carthage) and because China hits a hard iron wall (India-Nepal-Pakistan) on the other side. And Russia conducted ethnic cleansing and held onto the land they'd seized.
...As Joe said this deal doesn't avert a war it ends one. A war which has been stalemated for years. Neither the Russians nor the Ukrainians have made significant advances basically since the war began. A war in which the populations on both sides want to end. As usual it's only the people who don't have to fight the war who are interested in either starting or continuing it.
That's fine... have Russia pull back to pre-2014 borders and it's all over... that land is not theirs.
Let's assume for a minute that you are right though. That this is merely a stalling tactic before Russia invades again. How will we be worse off in future than we currently are?
I was not thinking primarily about us... I was thinking about the Ukrainians and their loss of their country... and, to us, the loss of a brave and fierce ally on the Eastern Flank of NATO.
Now lets assume that Russia somehow conquers Ukraine in this future. Russia has nowhere to go outside of Ukraine without running into a NATO country. If the Russian Army can't over run a country of 35 million, they are going to do so to an alliance that's made up for almost a billion people with a far bigger and more advanced military?
Looks good on paper, however, the Russians have been bullying Europe for 80 years, and, given a win on their imagined "Reconquista", they will be looking for more in the not-too-distant future, beginning in the Baltic States, then Moravia, etc.

The saddest part of this entire saga is that I truly believe that most of the people who are against ending this war do so because they don't want Trump to get credit for ending it.
No... you're deluding yourself in that regard.

Most folks who object to ending the war are not actually against ending the war.

Most folks who object to ending the war are afraid that Trump is going to "give away the farm" ala Neville Chamberlain and that the Rump State of Ukraine will be unsustainable and that Putin will only be encouraged to try to grab more land after a Victory.

They're afraid that Putin is playing Chess and that Trump is playing Checkers... or... worse yet... Chutes and Ladders.

They haven't seen any real "backbone" out of Trump so far in connection with the Ukraine War and do not trust him to do Right.

It's not that they don't want to see him succeed... it's that they don't trust him to settle the thing without giving Russia a "Win".

The split-second that Trump shows that "backbone" and settles it so that Ukraine hasn't sacrificed in vain, he'll find more support.

Giving Trump "credit" for ending the war is wwwaaaaaaaaaaaayyy down the Priority Ladder for most pro-Ukrainian American observers.
 
China went no further because the Himalayas-to-China are like the Alps-to-Hannibal (Carthage) and because China hits a hard iron wall (India-Nepal-Pakistan) on the other side. And Russia conducted ethnic cleansing and held onto the land they'd seized.

Except China didn't retake Outer Mongolia (which was once part of China), even though they'd have no problem overrunning it if they wanted it. They haven't annexed North Korea. They didn't invade Hong Kong; they just waited for the treaty terms to run out, and they STILL gave Hong Kong a certain level of autonomy.

That's fine... have Russia pull back to pre-2014 borders and it's all over... that land is not theirs.

Or redraw the borders to reflect where people live. Crimea and Donbas are predominately Russian. They are only part of Ukraine because of some Soviet nonsense.

I was not thinking primarily about us... I was thinking about the Ukrainians and their loss of their country... and, to us, the loss of a brave and fierce ally on the Eastern Flank of NATO.

Um, except NATO never should have been trying to make Ukraine part of it. Expanding NATO has been a large part of the problem. NATO was formed to counter the USSR and Warsaw Pact. They are both gone now, but NATO is still there, expanding into former Pact/Soviet states, and we wonder why Russia (which has been invaded MULTIPLE times from the West) might feel a bit threatened by that.

Looks good on paper, however, the Russians have been bullying Europe for 80 years, and, given a win on their imagined "Reconquista", they will be looking for more in the not-too-distant future, beginning in the Baltic States, then Moravia, etc.

Um, "Moravia" is in the Czech Republic. You are probably thinking of Moldova.

No... you're deluding yourself in that regard.

Most folks who object to ending the war are not actually against ending the war.

Most folks who object to ending the war are afraid that Trump is going to "give away the farm" ala Neville Chamberlain and that the Rump State of Ukraine will be unsustainable and that Putin will only be encouraged to try to grab more land after a Victory.

I doubt Trump has the ability to craft a lasting peace. Yes, any peace deal should include security guarantees of some sort.

They're afraid that Putin is playing Chess and that Trump is playing Checkers... or... worse yet... Chutes and Ladders.

They haven't seen any real "backbone" out of Trump so far in connection with the Ukraine War and do not trust him to do Right.

It's not that they don't want to see him succeed... it's that they don't trust him to settle the thing without giving Russia a "Win".

The split-second that Trump shows that "backbone" and settles it so that Ukraine hasn't sacrificed in vain, he'll find more support.

Giving Trump "credit" for ending the war is wwwaaaaaaaaaaaayyy down the Priority Ladder for most pro-Ukrainian American observers.

You voted for him. Can't complain now that he is the idiot we all told you he was.
 
Hungary Howls as Ukraine Strikes Key Pipeline

Hungary Howls as Ukraine Strikes Key Pipeline​

Ukraine has struck the Druzhba pipeline carrying Russian oil to Hungary and Slovakia, even as widening attacks indicating the war is spreading to the Eurasian landmass.

Ukraine's owners and bankers DESPERATELY trying to spread the war into WWIII
 
China went no further because the Himalayas-to-China are like the Alps-to-Hannibal (Carthage) and because China hits a hard iron wall (India-Nepal-Pakistan) on the other side. And Russia conducted ethnic cleansing and held onto the land they'd seized.

So it's always except when it isn't?

That's fine... have Russia pull back to pre-2014 borders and it's all over... that land is not theirs.
Back here in the real world that's not how it ever works. Also arent you curious as to why there's not insurgency in the regions Russia took over? Hint: It's because the people there are mostly Russian. BTW how far back are we supposed go when redrawing lines? Why 2014? Why not 1950? or 1735? or some other random point in time?
I was not thinking primarily about us... I was thinking about the Ukrainians and their loss of their country... and, to us, the loss of a brave and fierce ally on the Eastern Flank of NATO.

The Ukrainians by a wide margin want a brokered peace.


Looks good on paper, however, the Russians have been bullying Europe for 80 years, and, given a win on their imagined "Reconquista", they will be looking for more in the not-too-distant future, beginning in the Baltic States, then Moravia, etc.

Have you looked at a map lately? Which non NATO Baltic states is Russia going to invade? Belarus? They are already an ally of Russia. Oh wait that's the list of non NATO Baltic states....

No... you're deluding yourself in that regard.

Most folks who object to ending the war are not actually against ending the war.

Most folks who object to ending the war are afraid that Trump is going to "give away the farm" ala Neville Chamberlain and that the Rump State of Ukraine will be unsustainable and that Putin will only be encouraged to try to grab more land after a Victory.

There's no "farm" to give away. Russia already has the "farm" you're talking about with zero reason to leave. In order to keep what they have taken they don't have to do anything and the Ukrainians dont really have the ability or the manpower to get to off said "farm".

They're afraid that Putin is playing Chess and that Trump is playing Checkers... or... worse yet... Chutes and Ladders.

They haven't seen any real "backbone" out of Trump so far in connection with the Ukraine War and do not trust him to do Right.

It's not that they don't want to see him succeed... it's that they don't trust him to settle the thing without giving Russia a "Win".

The split-second that Trump shows that "backbone" and settles it so that Ukraine hasn't sacrificed in vain, he'll find more support.

Giving Trump "credit" for ending the war is wwwaaaaaaaaaaaayyy down the Priority Ladder for most pro-Ukrainian American observers.

So you're just wildly un or misinformed then. Check.
 
Why didn't Europe strangle Russia three years ago???
Europe depends on Russia for LNG which we are in the process of replacing. It will take time because Biden in another act of senile stupidity suppressed out LNG production
 
China went no further because the Himalayas-to-China are like the Alps-to-Hannibal (Carthage) and because China hits a hard iron wall (India-Nepal-Pakistan) on the other side. And Russia conducted ethnic cleansing and held onto the land they'd seized.

That's fine... have Russia pull back to pre-2014 borders and it's all over... that land is not theirs.

I was not thinking primarily about us... I was thinking about the Ukrainians and their loss of their country... and, to us, the loss of a brave and fierce ally on the Eastern Flank of NATO.

Looks good on paper, however, the Russians have been bullying Europe for 80 years, and, given a win on their imagined "Reconquista", they will be looking for more in the not-too-distant future, beginning in the Baltic States, then Moravia, etc.


No... you're deluding yourself in that regard.

Most folks who object to ending the war are not actually against ending the war.

Most folks who object to ending the war are afraid that Trump is going to "give away the farm" ala Neville Chamberlain and that the Rump State of Ukraine will be unsustainable and that Putin will only be encouraged to try to grab more land after a Victory.

They're afraid that Putin is playing Chess and that Trump is playing Checkers... or... worse yet... Chutes and Ladders.

They haven't seen any real "backbone" out of Trump so far in connection with the Ukraine War and do not trust him to do Right.

It's not that they don't want to see him succeed... it's that they don't trust him to settle the thing without giving Russia a "Win".

The split-second that Trump shows that "backbone" and settles it so that Ukraine hasn't sacrificed in vain, he'll find more support.

Giving Trump "credit" for ending the war is wwwaaaaaaaaaaaayyy down the Priority Ladder for most pro-Ukrainian American observers.
Let me ask you a question.

What do you think the US response would be to Russia and China entering into a military alliance with a bunch of Central American countries, putting duel use rocket launchers in, stationing troops there, funding their "defense", for years creeping closer and closer to our physical border. Then they tried to put Mexico in their alliance. Would it be minutes or hours before we invaded Mexico?
 
NATO was formed to counter the USSR and Warsaw Pact. They are both gone now, but NATO is still there, expanding into former Pact/Soviet states, and we wonder why Russia (which has been invaded MULTIPLE times from the West) might feel a bit threatened by that.

The formerly enslaved nations joined NATO for protection from their enslavers.
And that makes Russia feel threatened? Poor Russia, never did nuthin' to nobody.
 
The formerly enslaved nations joined NATO for protection from their enslavers.
And that makes Russia feel threatened? Poor Russia, never did nuthin' to nobody.
The USSR doesn't exist.

NATO nations have invaded far more countries than Russia.

The US alone has invaded more countries than Russia since the breakup of the Soviet Union.

If the Russians and Chinese wanted to enter into a military alliance with Mexico as a hedge against US aggression, would we let them?
 
The USSR doesn't exist.

NATO nations have invaded far more countries than Russia.

The US alone has invaded more countries than Russia since the breakup of the Soviet Union.

If the Russians and Chinese wanted to enter into a military alliance with Mexico as a hedge against US aggression, would we let them?

The USSR doesn't exist.

No kidding. Ash heap of history.

NATO nations have invaded far more countries than Russia.

Which ones?

If the Russians and Chinese wanted to enter into a military alliance with Mexico as a hedge against US aggression, would we let them?


If Russia wanted to invade the Warsaw Pact countries, should we let them?
 
15th post
The USSR doesn't exist.

No kidding. Ash heap of history.

NATO nations have invaded far more countries than Russia.

Which ones?
Which countries have we invaded, or which ones did the invading?
If the Russians and Chinese wanted to enter into a military alliance with Mexico as a hedge against US aggression, would we let them?

If Russia wanted to invade the Warsaw Pact countries, should we let them?
I see you're avoiding the question. I think we both know why.
 
Which countries have we invaded, or which ones did the invading?

I see you're avoiding the question. I think we both know why.

NATO nations have invaded far more countries than Russia.

Which ones has NATO invaded?

If we had enslaved Mexico for 50 years, I wouldn't blame
them for aligning with Russia and China.

Did we do that?
 
The end of the Cold War should have marked a major new beginning in the history of relations between the West and Russia—where Russian colonialism in Eastern Europe and the history of Western European aggression against Russia would be set aside, allowing both sides to let the wounds of the past heal.

Russia dismantled the Soviet Union, abolished the Iron Curtain, and recognized Ukraine’s independence as the neutral country it was in 1992.

Russia fulfilled its side of the bargain. The West did not.

The American and European people bore absolutely no responsibility for that gratuitous and absurd aggression—not only continuing but expanding Cold War policies against Russia. This was a decision made by American and European neoconservatives without any form of popular consultation.

I am certain that if the so-called "Western democracies" had submitted this authoritarian decision to a popular vote, the people of America and Western Europe would have chosen global peace over bitterness, resentment, and a revanchist policy toward Russia.
 
I say this without attempting to diminish the extreme gravity of how Russia reacted to the continuation of Cold War policies imposed upon it. There is nothing more serious in terms of international relations than attacking and invading another nation outside the context of direct self-defense.

Acknowledging the West’s betrayal of its side of the bargain helps explain—but does not entirely excuse—the violations of international law, the aggression, or the suffering caused by Russia’s actions.
 
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