The End of the Christian Right

[koshergrl]

Deism is just another slogan/code word that the libs have incorporated into the conversation, specifically to change the perception of the truth..which is that the founding fathers were Christians and founded the country on Christian principles.

It's the same thing that JS does when he decides that I'm "pro-birth" instead of "pro-life" and declares that pro-abortion loons are really "pro-life" because they sometimes draw the line at chopping up viable babies (partial birth abortions..another one of those interesting terms meant to hide what is really going on).

They substitute one word for another when they want to pretend one thing is something else. It's all about hiding the agenda.

 

[Katzndogz]

Liberals have misinterpreted Deism to be a kind of atheism, or at least some denomination that is not Christianity. They are incorrect. The founders could not have been more clear on the subject even if some of their statements are taken out of context. The Letter to the Danbury Baptists is an ideal example.

We no longer teach history as it was, but as liberals would like it to hae been. These erroneous beliefs are held with a fervor that is a religious fervor so it is unassailable. All anyone can do is not accept this trash as true, don't let your children accept this trash as true and counter it as best as possible.

 

[JakeStarkey]

We can't even agree on HISTORY!

The history, though, is still very clear on this.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The far right Christians here do not know American history, that is very clear.

 

[Uncensored2008]

We can't even agree on HISTORY!

That's because fakey jake and the other dims keep trying to rewrite it.

The jakestarkey civics test:

Who wrote the constitution of the United States:

1.) Karl Marx
2.) Karl Marx
3.) Karl Marx

Who is the most important historical figure in American government:

1.) Karl Marx
2.) Karl Marx
3.) Karl Marx

Upon who does the economic success of America depend?

1.) Barack Obama
2.) Barack Obama
3.) Barack Obama

Who is considered the most important leader in American history?

1.) Barack Obama
2.) Barack Obama
3.) Barack Obama

 

[Uncensored2008]

So, how many of the founding fathers were deists?

Two.

Do you even know? How many had degrees intheocracy and were in fact acting or prior pastors?

Not sure, but more than the number of deists,

If you look up those numbers, you will realize that you are completely incorrect.

It wasn't meant to be correct. Propaganda isn't about accuracy.

 

[Newby]

So, how many of the founding fathers were deists?

Two.

Do you even know? How many had degrees intheocracy and were in fact acting or prior pastors?

Not sure, but more than the number of deists,

If you look up those numbers, you will realize that you are completely incorrect.

It wasn't meant to be correct. Propaganda isn't about accuracy.

I don't remember the exact number myself either, but I know it was well over half of them that had theocracy degrees and were acting pastors. They can also never explain how the very first session of Congress opened with several hours of prayer before any other work was even attempted. All historical fact and documented in the orginal documents and letters that are kept in the Arhcives in DC.

 

[Uncensored2008]

I don't remember the exact number myself either, but I know it was well over half of them that had theocracy degrees and were acting pastors. They can also never explain how the very first session of Congress opened with several hours of prayer before any other work was even attempted. All historical fact and documented in the orginal documents and letters that are kept in the Arhcives in DC.

The one that I nail them on is that as president, Thomas Jefferson not only paid out of the general fund to have church services held in the House of Representatives, but had a reserved seat and never missed a single Sunday.

Separation of church and state didn't mean what the leftists claim it means.

 

[koshergrl]

So, how many of the founding fathers were deists?

Two.



Not sure, but more than the number of deists,

If you look up those numbers, you will realize that you are completely incorrect.

It wasn't meant to be correct. Propaganda isn't about accuracy.

I don't remember the exact number myself either, but I know it was well over half of them that had theocracy degrees and were acting pastors. They can also never explain how the very first session of Congress opened with several hours of prayer before any other work was even attempted. All historical fact and documented in the orginal documents and letters that are kept in the Arhcives in DC.

It wasn't prayer, they'll say...it was MEDITATION!

 

[koshergrl]

I don't remember the exact number myself either, but I know it was well over half of them that had theocracy degrees and were acting pastors. They can also never explain how the very first session of Congress opened with several hours of prayer before any other work was even attempted. All historical fact and documented in the orginal documents and letters that are kept in the Arhcives in DC.

The one that I nail them on is that as president, Thomas Jefferson not only paid out of the general fund to have church services held in the House of Representatives, but had a reserved seat and never missed a single Sunday.

Separation of church and state didn't mean what the leftists claim it means.

That's another one of those phrases that they've changed the meaning of.

Separation of church and state, which is not in the constitution, was about preventing government interference in a person's right to worship as they please, how they please, when they please, where they please. It was NOT a code word meant to prevent religion from ever associating with government. It was specifically meant to PREVENT the government from dictating to indviduals whether or not they could publicly reference their religion without danger of reprisals. It was meant to prevent government "rounding up" people for daring to preach on street corners.

But according to libs, who remember, are all about hiding the pea under the shell, it NOW means exactly the opposite...that the government has the right to prevent people from publicly avowing their faith, referencing their faith, announcing their faith, or admitting that their faith influences their actions, and in the case of public employees and schools, to violate this can result in sanctions.

In other words, they use it to justify government interference with worship. The exact OPPOSITE of what it was meant to do. It's all about hiding the reality, and hiding the agenda. Which is to limit freedom and eradicate religion and certain populations of people that are deemed unnecessary or just undesirable.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The UncensoredFascist civics test:

Who wrote the constitution of the United States:

1.) Ebenezer Scrooge
2.) Ebenezer Scrooge
3.) Ebenezer Scrooge

Who is the most important historical figure in American government:

1.) Voltemort
2.) Voltemort
3.) Voltemort

Upon who does the economic success of America depend?

1.) Ebenezer Scrooge
2.) Ebenezer Scrooge
3.) Ebenezer Scrooge

Who is considered the most important leader in American history?

1.) Voltemort
2.) Voltemort
3.) Voltemort

UncensoredFascist, unfortunately, does not understand the difference between fiction and factual individuals.

 

[koshergrl]

See?

 

[newpolitics]

Deism is just another slogan/code word that the libs have incorporated into the conversation, specifically to change the perception of the truth..which is that the founding fathers were Christians and founded the country on Christian principles..

What you said would be true, if it weren't false...

Deism is the belief in a non-interventionist God that allowed the natural universe to develop naturally. So, this Being set the rules and the forces in the motion, and let the rest unravel as it did. This is quite a departure from creationism, young or old earth, and Christianity in general, with the idea that god is knowable.

It is a fact that a number of the founding fathers were deists. This isn't liberal propoganda, but historical fact. What you are doing is altering historical facts to fit your ideological view of this country as Christian.

Wikipedia:


In the United States, Enlightenment philosophy (which itself was heavily inspired by deist ideals) played a major role in creating the principle of religious freedom, expressed in Thomas Jefferson's letters, and the principle of religious freedom expressed in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. American Founding Fathers, or Framers of the Constitution, who were especially noted for being influenced by such philosophy include Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Cornelius Harnett, Gouverneur Morris, and Hugh Williamson. Their political speeches show distinct deistic influence.


Other notable Founding Fathers may have been more directly deist. These include James Madison, possibly Alexander Hamilton, Ethan Allen,[44] and Thomas Paine (who published The Age of Reason, a treatise that helped to popularize deism throughout the USA and Europe).
A major contributor was Elihu Palmer (1764–1806), who wrote the "Bible" of American deism in his Principles of Nature (1801) and attempted to organize deism by forming the "Deistical Society of New York".

For his part, Thomas Jefferson is perhaps one of the Founding Fathers with the most outspoken of Deist tendencies, though he is not known to have called himself a deist, generally referring to himself as a Unitarian. In particular, his treatment of the Biblical gospels which he titled The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth, but which subsequently became more commonly known as the Jefferson Bible, exhibits a strong deist tendency of stripping away all supernatural and dogmatic references from the Christ story. However, one unpublished Ph.D. dissertation has described Jefferson as not a Deist but a "theistic rationalist", because Jefferson believed in God's continuing activity in human affairs.[54] The first-found usage of the term "theistic rationalist" is in the year 1856.[55] In his Notes on the State of Virginia, Jefferson stated that he "trembled" at the thought that "God is just," warning of eventual "supernatural influence" to abolish the scourge of slavery.[56]

 

[Newby]

Religion and the Congress of the Confederation, 1774-89

The Continental-Confederation Congress, a legislative body that governed the United States from 1774 to 1789, contained an extraordinary number of deeply religious men. The amount of energy that Congress invested in encouraging the practice of religion in the new nation exceeded that expended by any subsequent American national government. Although the Articles of Confederation did not officially authorize Congress to concern itself with religion, the citizenry did not object to such activities. This lack of objection suggests that both the legislators and the public considered it appropriate for the national government to promote a nondenominational, nonpolemical Christianity.

Congress appointed chaplains for itself and the armed forces, sponsored the publication of a Bible, imposed Christian morality on the armed forces, and granted public lands to promote Christianity among the Indians. National days of thanksgiving and of "humiliation, fasting, and prayer" were proclaimed by Congress at least twice a year throughout the war. Congress was guided by "covenant theology," a Reformation doctrine especially dear to New England Puritans, which held that God bound himself in an agreement with a nation and its people. This agreement stipulated that they "should be prosperous or afflicted, according as their general Obedience or Disobedience thereto appears." Wars and revolutions were, accordingly, considered afflictions, as divine punishments for sin, from which a nation could rescue itself by repentance and reformation.

The first national government of the United States, was convinced that the "public prosperity" of a society depended on the vitality of its religion. Nothing less than a "spirit of universal reformation among all ranks and degrees of our citizens," Congress declared to the American people, would "make us a holy, that so we may be a happy people."

Proposed Seal for the United States

On July 4, 1776, Congress appointed Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams "to bring in a device for a seal for the United States of America." Franklin's proposal adapted the biblical story of the parting of the Red Sea (left). Jefferson first recommended the "Children of Israel in the Wilderness, led by a Cloud by Day, and a Pillar of Fire by night. . . ." He then embraced Franklin's proposal and rewrote it (right). Jefferson's revision of Franklin's proposal was presented by the committee to Congress on August 20. Although not accepted these drafts reveal the religious temper of the Revolutionary period. Franklin and Jefferson were among the most theologically liberal of the Founders, yet they used biblical imagery for this important task.

The above is just one of many examples... read more at..

Religion and the Congress of the Confederation, 1774-89 (Religion and the Founding of the American Republic, Library of Congress Exhibition)

 

[JakeStarkey]

All very good but . . . church and state were separated at the national level for a reason.

 

[Newby]

A small example, the link shows much more.

WallBuilders - Issues and Articles - The Founding Fathers on Jesus, Christianity and the Bible

John Adams


SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; JUDGE; DIPLOMAT; ONE OF TWO SIGNERS OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; SECOND PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES

The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.1

The Holy Ghost carries on the whole Christian system in this earth. Not a baptism, not a marriage, not a sacrament can be administered but by the Holy Ghost. . . . There is no authority, civil or religious – there can be no legitimate government but what is administered by this Holy Ghost. There can be no salvation without it. All without it is rebellion and perdition, or in more orthodox words damnation.2

Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company: I mean hell.3

The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity.4

Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited. . . . What a Eutopia – what a Paradise would this region be!5

I have examined all religions, and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world.6


John Quincy Adams


SIXTH PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES; DIPLOMAT; SECRETARY OF STATE; U. S. SENATOR; U. S. REPRESENTATIVE; “OLD MAN ELOQUENT”; “HELL-HOUND OF ABOLITION”

My hopes of a future life are all founded upon the Gospel of Christ and I cannot cavil or quibble away [evade or object to]. . . . the whole tenor of His conduct by which He sometimes positively asserted and at others countenances [permits] His disciples in asserting that He was God.7

The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the Divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made “bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God” [Isaiah 52:10].8

In the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior. The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.9


Samuel Adams


SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; “FATHER OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION”; RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS

I . . . [rely] upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins.10

The name of the Lord (says the Scripture) is a strong tower; thither the righteous flee and are safe [Proverbs 18:10]. Let us secure His favor and He will lead us through the journey of this life and at length receive us to a better.11

I conceive we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world . . . that the confusions that are and have been among the nations may be overruled by the promoting and speedily bringing in the holy and happy period when the kingdoms of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and the people willingly bow to the scepter of Him who is the Prince of Peace.12

He also called on the State of Massachusetts to pray that . . .

the peaceful and glorious reign of our Divine Redeemer may be known and enjoyed throughout the whole family of mankind.13
we may with one heart and voice humbly implore His gracious and free pardon through Jesus Christ, supplicating His Divine aid . . . [and] above all to cause the religion of Jesus Christ, in its true spirit, to spread far and wide till the whole earth shall be filled with His glory.14
with true contrition of heart to confess their sins to God and implore forgiveness through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ our Savior.15

Charles Carroll


SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; SELECTED AS DELEGATE TO THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION; FRAMER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; U. S. SENATOR

On the mercy of my Redeemer I rely for salvation and on His merits, not on the works I have done in obedience to His precepts.22

Grateful to Almighty God for the blessings which, through Jesus Christ Our Lord, He had conferred on my beloved country in her emancipation and on myself in permitting me, under circumstances of mercy, to live to the age of 89 years, and to survive the fiftieth year of independence, adopted by Congress on the 4th of July 1776, which I originally subscribed on the 2d day of August of the same year and of which I am now the last surviving signer.23

I, Charles Carroll. . . . give and bequeath my soul to God who gave it, my body to the earth, hoping that through and by the merits, sufferings, and mediation of my only Savior and Jesus Christ, I may be admitted into the Kingdom prepared by God for those who love, fear and truly serve Him.24


Congress, 1854

The great, vital, and conservative element in our system is the belief of our people in the pure doctrines and the divine truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.25


Congress, U. S. House Judiciary Committee, 1854

Had the people, during the Revolution, had a suspicion of any attempt to war against Christianity, that Revolution would have been strangled in its cradle... In this age, there can be no substitute for Christianity... That was the religion of the founders of the republic and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants.26

 

[Newby]

All very good but . . . church and state were separated at the national level for a reason.

These historical facts, the letters and official documents from the actual founders, their words, prove that they never intended it as you libs have contorted it over the years. What they did back then would never be tolerated today. And then you try to go back and use them and their supposed beliefs to prove that they intended for it to be as you think it should be. Historical fact does not back up your view.

 

[koshergrl]

All very good but . . . church and state were separated at the national level for a reason.

Yes, we already addressed this despite your pretense.

That reason was to prevent government interference in free expression of faith.

 

[Dragon]

These historical facts, the letters and official documents from the actual founders, their words, prove that they never intended it as you libs have contorted it over the years.

Who is "they"? The idea that the Founding Fathers represented one opinion, one unified will, is sheer nonsense. The Constitution was a compromise document agreed upon after long debate by people who didn't agree about much at all except for the need for a stronger and more competent central government. The Bill of Rights was actually the work of anti-federalists, and was not in the original Constitution as submitted to the states; enough pressure was brought for it to make it a condition for the ratification of the new government.

So you have John Adams on the one hand, but on the other you have Thomas Jefferson, who said many things on the subject of religion, including the following:

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.

Where the preamble [of the Virginia constitution] declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.

I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.

They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.

So if you want to say that the Founding Fathers would not approve, or would approve, of today's interpretation of the establishment clause of the First Amendment, you can be right. You just have to be selective about which of them you mean.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The founders did not want government and institutional religion interfering in the realm of the other's responsibility. The result has become that the USA is the freest nation in the world concerning religion and that organized religion cannot dictate by government force what those who believe differently must do.

What a wonderful blessing the Constitution is to the religious freedom of all Americans.