The Consequences of a Post-Christian America Revealed by COVID-19

[Hollie]

It seems pretty juvenile to blame one configuration of the gods for a virus that appears to be a product of biological processes.

 

[ding]

If that’s how you want to see it but that seems to be a position led by confirmation bias. As in you don’t want to believe God exists so you create arguments that confirm that belief.

whereas I started from the position of why would God create existence and looked for the most plausible reason I could find. So if you started from the position of why what would your answer be?

A person could well believe 'God' exists and is impossible to limit with words. That direct experience is the only kind that truly matters. That making images would dis-serve 'God'.

Great. So why did God create the material world?

There are so many elements of assumption in this question that an entire book might not address them adequately.
Let's just look at a simple basic:
'God' may be the impression we get from an existence, a universe that resounds with eternal creation. Our humble perceptions use the model of our family and the protection of our progenitors as a model for explaining what is beyond our capacities to explain.
'God' would have to be eternal, all and everything, beyond being encompassed by language, immune to any but the most general description. We are not equipped to comprehend satisfactorily such a One. Compared to the way human knowledge functions, it would even be impossible for 'God' to know that 'God' existed, as there could not be any "non-God" to contrast with. 'God' would have no reference for being as it would not be possible for 'God' not to be.
Perhaps this is why Buddhism insists on a unity beyond the illusory dualism of practical human existence.

That’s funny because I am able to answer the question why God created the material world in a single sentence.

I believe it is so that he could experience the material world through us.

You conflate belief with answer. That it may be an adequate answer for you is one thing. That it is the answer is, shall we say, a bit presumptuous?

I don't believe it is.

Here is why I believe God created the material world so that he could experience it through us.

It should be obvious that if the material world were not created by spirit that everything that has unfolded in the evolution of space and time would have no intentional purpose. That it is just matter and energy doing what matter and energy do. Conversely, if the material world were created by spirit it should be obvious that the creation of the material world was intentional. After all in my perception of God, God is no thing and the closest thing I can relate to is a mind with no body. Using our own experiences as creators as a proxy, we know that when we create things we create them for a reason and that reason is to serve some purpose. So it would be no great leap of logic to believe that something like a mind with no body would do the same. We also know from our experiences that intelligence tends to create intelligence. We are obsessed with making smart things. So what better thing for a mind with no body to do than create a universe where beings with bodies can create smart things too.

So the question then becomes why? And the obvious answer is so that he can experience the material world through us. But why would he want to do that? For the same reason we do, to share. Why do we have kids? We do that through our love. We share our love. How do we share our love? Through shared experiences.

 

[ding]

I’m not judging you, Sue. I am judging your behaviors. For example, you are behaving pridefully. That doesn’t make you a bad person.

so my statement had a qualifier which was the word probably. My statement was based upon your belief that only Christians have the spirit of God within them.

I tell you that God chooses who is invited to the feast and I will never impose my restrictions upon his spirit and I will always assume his spirit is in everyone. And I will never get in his way.

It is not my pride, ding. I have no pride in it. It is what God says. The Spirit of God is not in everyone. If that were true, everyone would be a regenerated Believer in Jesus Christ. Is this true?

That’s a false question, Sue. He suffered death for everyone’s sins.

So you believe everyone is saved, whether they believe or not.

You can call that what you want, but it is not Christianity. Same as I said before.

I don’t even know what you mean by saved. Whatever that is I believe that’s God’s decision.

I focus on the journey, not the destination. My relationship with God is about my journey; my transformation. The destination is meaningless to me.

but I will say this about the destination. If you believe you are saved, you probably aren’t. If you believe you are a good person, you probably aren’t. I believe it is better to believe I am not worthy and strive to become worthy rather than becoming complacent and resting on my laurels.

Please do not take any of what I am about to say personally. None of this is about you. I do not even know you. You don't know me. It's not about you--or me. Your first sentence tells me, again, nothing personal--that I'm going to back up and explain some things.

Salvation in Christ is an exchange. It is not a destination, a set of acts, or anything like. It does not have to be a dramatic event, a "feeling" that comes over you. Some people know when it happened. Other people, like me, only know they are saved but cannot pinpoint a day or time.

It reorients your entire life. It is what it means, in fact, to be Christian. Not to do "Christian things". It has not a thing to do with listening to Christian radio, shopping at Christian bookstores or whatever. It is, as the Bible says, to see the Kingdom of God.

It is not a journey. It is to know the journey is over. Or, as Jesus said, "It is accomplished".

To be a saved Christian means that it doesn't matter too much what I believe. It does matter a whole lot what God says about God. That matters more than my life, ding.

That I am saved does not in any way make me a better person than any other person walking the face of the earth. I did not, nor could I do, anything to earn salvation. God didn't save me because I am better. I do not know why He did save me. But He can and will save anyone reading today, who calls on the Name of Jesus Christ. (See Romans 10:9)

To be saved means that the destination is not, in fact, meaningless--the destination means that you go to be with God, in Heaven--and you long for it. That doesn't mean we are senseless to the pleasures of this world, nope. Or that we are sinless, oh...nope. But, we long to be with God. That is our ultimate reward.

If you don't even know what it is to be saved, it's not a wonder that you are stumbling through theology, honestly. I honestly pray that you will come to know Jesus Christ as you Lord and SAVE-ior. And yes, to answer your previous question: I do believe individual Catholics can be saved. But I do not believe the religion itself is set up for salvation. I've had too many Catholics ask me questions similar to yours, who believe salvation is in the Eucharist or etc.

Take care.

Sue, you are correct, I don't know you but I know that you keep avoiding this question.

Do you believe Catholics are Christians?

 

[ding]

It seems pretty juvenile to blame one configuration of the gods for a virus that appears to be a product of biological processes.

Almost as silly as believing there can be no God because bad things happen to good people.

 

[ding]

If that’s how you want to see it but that seems to be a position led by confirmation bias. As in you don’t want to believe God exists so you create arguments that confirm that belief.

whereas I started from the position of why would God create existence and looked for the most plausible reason I could find. So if you started from the position of why what would your answer be?

A person could well believe 'God' exists and is impossible to limit with words. That direct experience is the only kind that truly matters. That making images would dis-serve 'God'.

Great. So why did God create the material world?

There are so many elements of assumption in this question that an entire book might not address them adequately.
Let's just look at a simple basic:
'God' may be the impression we get from an existence, a universe that resounds with eternal creation. Our humble perceptions use the model of our family and the protection of our progenitors as a model for explaining what is beyond our capacities to explain.
'God' would have to be eternal, all and everything, beyond being encompassed by language, immune to any but the most general description. We are not equipped to comprehend satisfactorily such a One. Compared to the way human knowledge functions, it would even be impossible for 'God' to know that 'God' existed, as there could not be any "non-God" to contrast with. 'God' would have no reference for being as it would not be possible for 'God' not to be.
Perhaps this is why Buddhism insists on a unity beyond the illusory dualism of practical human existence.

That’s funny because I am able to answer the question why God created the material world in a single sentence.

I believe it is so that he could experience the material world through us.

You conflate belief with answer. That it may be an adequate answer for you is one thing. That it is the answer is, shall we say, a bit presumptuous?

But let's be clear here, you have not even attempted to answer the question. I guess it's just easier to throw rocks at those that have.

 

[SweetSue92]

It is not my pride, ding. I have no pride in it. It is what God says. The Spirit of God is not in everyone. If that were true, everyone would be a regenerated Believer in Jesus Christ. Is this true?

That’s a false question, Sue. He suffered death for everyone’s sins.

So you believe everyone is saved, whether they believe or not.

You can call that what you want, but it is not Christianity. Same as I said before.

I don’t even know what you mean by saved. Whatever that is I believe that’s God’s decision.

I focus on the journey, not the destination. My relationship with God is about my journey; my transformation. The destination is meaningless to me.

but I will say this about the destination. If you believe you are saved, you probably aren’t. If you believe you are a good person, you probably aren’t. I believe it is better to believe I am not worthy and strive to become worthy rather than becoming complacent and resting on my laurels.

Please do not take any of what I am about to say personally. None of this is about you. I do not even know you. You don't know me. It's not about you--or me. Your first sentence tells me, again, nothing personal--that I'm going to back up and explain some things.

Salvation in Christ is an exchange. It is not a destination, a set of acts, or anything like. It does not have to be a dramatic event, a "feeling" that comes over you. Some people know when it happened. Other people, like me, only know they are saved but cannot pinpoint a day or time.

It reorients your entire life. It is what it means, in fact, to be Christian. Not to do "Christian things". It has not a thing to do with listening to Christian radio, shopping at Christian bookstores or whatever. It is, as the Bible says, to see the Kingdom of God.

It is not a journey. It is to know the journey is over. Or, as Jesus said, "It is accomplished".

To be a saved Christian means that it doesn't matter too much what I believe. It does matter a whole lot what God says about God. That matters more than my life, ding.

That I am saved does not in any way make me a better person than any other person walking the face of the earth. I did not, nor could I do, anything to earn salvation. God didn't save me because I am better. I do not know why He did save me. But He can and will save anyone reading today, who calls on the Name of Jesus Christ. (See Romans 10:9)

To be saved means that the destination is not, in fact, meaningless--the destination means that you go to be with God, in Heaven--and you long for it. That doesn't mean we are senseless to the pleasures of this world, nope. Or that we are sinless, oh...nope. But, we long to be with God. That is our ultimate reward.

If you don't even know what it is to be saved, it's not a wonder that you are stumbling through theology, honestly. I honestly pray that you will come to know Jesus Christ as you Lord and SAVE-ior. And yes, to answer your previous question: I do believe individual Catholics can be saved. But I do not believe the religion itself is set up for salvation. I've had too many Catholics ask me questions similar to yours, who believe salvation is in the Eucharist or etc.

Take care.

Sue, you are correct, I don't know you but I know that you keep avoiding this question.

Do you believe Catholics are Christians?

Thanks for proving that you didn't read.

Won't waste my time next time

 

[ding]

That’s a false question, Sue. He suffered death for everyone’s sins.

So you believe everyone is saved, whether they believe or not.

You can call that what you want, but it is not Christianity. Same as I said before.

I don’t even know what you mean by saved. Whatever that is I believe that’s God’s decision.

I focus on the journey, not the destination. My relationship with God is about my journey; my transformation. The destination is meaningless to me.

but I will say this about the destination. If you believe you are saved, you probably aren’t. If you believe you are a good person, you probably aren’t. I believe it is better to believe I am not worthy and strive to become worthy rather than becoming complacent and resting on my laurels.

Please do not take any of what I am about to say personally. None of this is about you. I do not even know you. You don't know me. It's not about you--or me. Your first sentence tells me, again, nothing personal--that I'm going to back up and explain some things.

Salvation in Christ is an exchange. It is not a destination, a set of acts, or anything like. It does not have to be a dramatic event, a "feeling" that comes over you. Some people know when it happened. Other people, like me, only know they are saved but cannot pinpoint a day or time.

It reorients your entire life. It is what it means, in fact, to be Christian. Not to do "Christian things". It has not a thing to do with listening to Christian radio, shopping at Christian bookstores or whatever. It is, as the Bible says, to see the Kingdom of God.

It is not a journey. It is to know the journey is over. Or, as Jesus said, "It is accomplished".

To be a saved Christian means that it doesn't matter too much what I believe. It does matter a whole lot what God says about God. That matters more than my life, ding.

That I am saved does not in any way make me a better person than any other person walking the face of the earth. I did not, nor could I do, anything to earn salvation. God didn't save me because I am better. I do not know why He did save me. But He can and will save anyone reading today, who calls on the Name of Jesus Christ. (See Romans 10:9)

To be saved means that the destination is not, in fact, meaningless--the destination means that you go to be with God, in Heaven--and you long for it. That doesn't mean we are senseless to the pleasures of this world, nope. Or that we are sinless, oh...nope. But, we long to be with God. That is our ultimate reward.

If you don't even know what it is to be saved, it's not a wonder that you are stumbling through theology, honestly. I honestly pray that you will come to know Jesus Christ as you Lord and SAVE-ior. And yes, to answer your previous question: I do believe individual Catholics can be saved. But I do not believe the religion itself is set up for salvation. I've had too many Catholics ask me questions similar to yours, who believe salvation is in the Eucharist or etc.

Take care.

Sue, you are correct, I don't know you but I know that you keep avoiding this question.

Do you believe Catholics are Christians?

Thanks for proving that you didn't read.

Won't waste my time next time

Sue, I did read it. That's a bullshit answer unless you believe it applies to all Christians. Do you?

Now the question wasn't are Catholics saved. The question was do you believe Catholics are Christians?

 

[there4eyeM]

A person could well believe 'God' exists and is impossible to limit with words. That direct experience is the only kind that truly matters. That making images would dis-serve 'God'.

Great. So why did God create the material world?

There are so many elements of assumption in this question that an entire book might not address them adequately.
Let's just look at a simple basic:
'God' may be the impression we get from an existence, a universe that resounds with eternal creation. Our humble perceptions use the model of our family and the protection of our progenitors as a model for explaining what is beyond our capacities to explain.
'God' would have to be eternal, all and everything, beyond being encompassed by language, immune to any but the most general description. We are not equipped to comprehend satisfactorily such a One. Compared to the way human knowledge functions, it would even be impossible for 'God' to know that 'God' existed, as there could not be any "non-God" to contrast with. 'God' would have no reference for being as it would not be possible for 'God' not to be.
Perhaps this is why Buddhism insists on a unity beyond the illusory dualism of practical human existence.

That’s funny because I am able to answer the question why God created the material world in a single sentence.

I believe it is so that he could experience the material world through us.

You conflate belief with answer. That it may be an adequate answer for you is one thing. That it is the answer is, shall we say, a bit presumptuous?

But let's be clear here, you have not even attempted to answer the question. I guess it's just easier to throw rocks at those that have.

You would have to be stoned to see rocks in these posts.
Perhaps "Sue" is correct; you don't read.

 

[ding]

Great. So why did God create the material world?

There are so many elements of assumption in this question that an entire book might not address them adequately.
Let's just look at a simple basic:
'God' may be the impression we get from an existence, a universe that resounds with eternal creation. Our humble perceptions use the model of our family and the protection of our progenitors as a model for explaining what is beyond our capacities to explain.
'God' would have to be eternal, all and everything, beyond being encompassed by language, immune to any but the most general description. We are not equipped to comprehend satisfactorily such a One. Compared to the way human knowledge functions, it would even be impossible for 'God' to know that 'God' existed, as there could not be any "non-God" to contrast with. 'God' would have no reference for being as it would not be possible for 'God' not to be.
Perhaps this is why Buddhism insists on a unity beyond the illusory dualism of practical human existence.

That’s funny because I am able to answer the question why God created the material world in a single sentence.

I believe it is so that he could experience the material world through us.

You conflate belief with answer. That it may be an adequate answer for you is one thing. That it is the answer is, shall we say, a bit presumptuous?

But let's be clear here, you have not even attempted to answer the question. I guess it's just easier to throw rocks at those that have.

You would have to be stoned to see rocks in these posts.
Perhaps "Sue" is correct; you don't read.

I read just fine. Sue changed my question from "do you believe Catholics are Christians" to "do you believe Catholics are saved?" So maybe it wasn't me who didn't read the posts.

You did the same thing. I never asked you for "the" answer, I asked you for "your" answer. Which you never provided. In fact all you have provided was criticism for "my" answer.

 

[sparky]

It seems pretty juvenile to blame one configuration of the gods for a virus that appears to be a product of biological processes.

Almost as silly as believing there can be no God because bad things happen to good people.

See enough of that, and it'll turn you Ding

~S~

 

[ding]

It seems pretty juvenile to blame one configuration of the gods for a virus that appears to be a product of biological processes.

Almost as silly as believing there can be no God because bad things happen to good people.

See enough of that, and it'll turn you Ding

~S~

Sounds like a choice to me.

You do know what an external locus of control is, right?

 

[sparky]

It seems pretty juvenile to blame one configuration of the gods for a virus that appears to be a product of biological processes.

Almost as silly as believing there can be no God because bad things happen to good people.

See enough of that, and it'll turn you Ding

~S~

Sounds like a choice to me.

You do know what an external locus of control is, right?

I know it feeds the blame game , and in the broader objective the 'saved' paradox Ding

~S~

 

[ESay]

I honestly pray that you will come to know Jesus Christ as you Lord and SAVE-ior.

These are the most awkward things to me why I can't accept Christianity as my religion. The believe in Trinity and salvation through the faith alone.

 

[ding]

It seems pretty juvenile to blame one configuration of the gods for a virus that appears to be a product of biological processes.

Almost as silly as believing there can be no God because bad things happen to good people.

See enough of that, and it'll turn you Ding

~S~

Sounds like a choice to me.

You do know what an external locus of control is, right?

I know it feeds the blame game , and in the broader objective the 'saved' paradox Ding

~S~

Simply put, an external locus of control is a transfer of power or control to an external source.

The message of religion is the exact opposite though. We control our destiny. We control our progression. No one else. Now that doesn't mean I don't have help mind you, because I do. I have the spirit of God within me encouraging me to do the right thing, the right way for the right reason. Something I don't always do. And he is constantly pruning me so that new growth can occur. But ultimately it is up to me. If I blame others or make excuses, I can't possibly learn from my mistakes because I don't acknowledge they were MY mistakes.

So, I submit to you that your perception of religion is incorrect. But I will acknowledge that it wasn't without good cause. Because men are imperfect and don't always do the right thing, for the right reasons and the right way. So I can see how you could become confused.

Fair enough?

 

[Meriweather]

The gov't main focus, per our nation's founding is only to PROTECT God-given individual rights. It is not to "bestow" anything.

As I did not mention government 'bestowing' anything, I do not get your point. Basically a national government should focus on the nation. This includes protecting the nation, trade, transportation, and communication. Thus far, the Federal government has not interfered with any of my personal freedoms.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

What exactly did you see coming?

For that matter, what is it you think the "secularized masses" are looking for the government to do?

Do you think that this virus came about because the United States isn't a theocracy? That's kind of the impression you give.

No the virus didn't come about because the US isn't a theocracy (?). But the response to the virus is absolutely due to our post-Christian status. It's a response borne of fear and the need for safety ALL THE TIME. It's a safe-space response.

‘Government and public health officials have issued all sorts of guidelines to help people protect themselves against the spread of Covid-19. But there's another contagion that experts seem helpless to stop: The plague of prophets warning that the coronavirus is a sign we're at the "end of days."

There is something about pandemics that cause panicked people to empty their minds along with supermarket shelves. Countless doomsday warnings like Browne's prediction are spreading online, blending coronavirus fears with everything from political paranoia about a "#oneworld gov controlled by the UN" to Australian wildfires and swarms of locusts in Africa.’

Coronavirus is bringing a plague of dangerous doomsday predictions - CNN

Empty minds, indeed.

 

[Coyote]

The state is looking after us while God has gone fishing.

God's job is not to "look after us" Tommy. Well not His major job at any rate.

My goodness we are the most wimpified culture in the history of humanity. Exhibit A. WIMPS all of us

Sure it is. We are told to trust in him and submit to him, and in return for that company,etc acceptance of authority he looks after us...a shepherd and his sheep.

Do not confuse OUR chief role with HIS chief role

Then he lied to us eh?

 

[Coyote]

I have never understood the logic behind believing that unless everyone is kept safe or nothing bad can ever happen that there can be no God.

Could one of you good people explain that to me?

Coyote Montrovant JoeB131 ESay

I am no theologian, why are you asking me?

 

[ding]

I have never understood the logic behind believing that unless everyone is kept safe or nothing bad can ever happen that there can be no God.

Could one of you good people explain that to me?

Coyote Montrovant JoeB131 ESay

I am no theologian, why are you asking me?

Because of your comment that "the masses didn't have it any better when God ruled their lives."

 

[Coyote]

Would a more Christian country not have done anything, because that would just have been a fear response? Do you think Christians are never fearful?

It is not about what 'country' (ie government) should do. It is about what people themselves should or shouldn't do. For example, I can't imagine that a Christian can allow themselves to buy a two month stock of some goods knowing they leave others without even one day amount of it.

But they are.