The Church And The Origins Of Western Civilization

[JakeStarkey]

‘Indeed, in a very real sense, the political left's claptrap is the pagan-riddled apostasy of the Medieval Roman Catholic Church all over again.” The fact is that the natural universe theory of modern evangelicalism and fundamentalism, the religious bulwark of cultural McCarthyism, threatens the foundations of The Enlightenment underpinnings of the Constitution and the classical liberalism that produced it. As social, cultural, and religious McCarthyism continues to falter in its final socio-political failures, the right thinkers simply need to keep it contained while it implodes from its internal pathology.

Jake, I see you're hittin' on that implement again. I thought you were on the wagon. Did the wheels come off?

Typical McCarthyite smear: you can't answer the rebuttal of your silly argument so you smear your opponent.

 

[JoeB131]

[

3. Was it a marauding horde of educated Christians that overthrew a weak Western Roman Empire, as the Christian Eastern Roman Empire endured, or was it a horde of superstitious and technologically benighted pagans from the interior regions of Europe north of the western provinces that overthrew it heralding in the Dark Ages?​

I'm so glad you asked. By the time of the fall of teh Western Empire, most of those Germanic tribes- The Ostrogoths, Visigoths and Vandals - Were in fact Christians, albeit they believed in the Arian Heresy.

​

 

[JoeB131]

[

4. Given the fact that it was the Christians of the western provinces that preserved the works of the Classical era, not the benighted pagans of the European interior, what book burnings are you talking about?
​

I specifically talk about how Theophilus of Alexandria burned the Alexandrian Library in 391 AD. Or how his nephew Cyril murdered the philosopher Hypatia.

The point is, very little of the writings of the ancients have survived to the present day. We have no record of the poetry of Sappho of Lesbos. Because she was talking about that sweet Girl on Girl Love that apparently the Christians weren't too cool on.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

[

4. Given the fact that it was the Christians of the western provinces that preserved the works of the Classical era, not the benighted pagans of the European interior, what book burnings are you talking about?
​

I specifically talk about how Theophilus of Alexandria burned the Alexandrian Library in 391 AD. Or how his nephew Cyril murdered the philosopher Hypatia.

The point is, very little of the writings of the ancients have survived to the present day. We have no record of the poetry of Sappho of Lesbos. Because she was talking about that sweet Girl on Girl Love that apparently the Christians weren't too cool on.

You're talking about Edward Gibbon's claim that Theophilus of Alexandria burned the Alexandrian Library, but that's been falsified. What he destroyed under the decree of the emperor was the Serpeum Temple, which had previously housed part of the library, but not after the Fourth Century. In any event, Theophilus was an apostate of what had become in many quarters a corrupt theocracy, which biblical Christianity repudiates.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I suspect brother m.d. believes in biblical literalisma and a great apostasy more than a thousand years later. ok.

 

[JoeB131]

[

You're talking about Edward Gibbon's claim that Theophilus of Alexandria burned the Alexandrian Library, but that's been falsified. What he destroyed under the decree of the emperor was the Serpeum Temple, which had previously housed part of the library, but not after the Fourth Century. In any event, Theophilus was an apostate of what had become in many quarters a corrupt theocracy, which biblical Christianity repudiates.

I think you are engaging in the "No True Scotsman" Fallacy here.

Oh Theophilus couldn't have been a TRUE Christian because he didn't believe in Jesus the way I believe in him.

And this is a flaw in your thinking. By your own logic, 90% of people who call themselves "Christian" aren't following what Jesus taught. The Catholics, the Orthodox and other Protestant denominations are getting it all wrong.

Gee, you'd THINK a perfect God would explain something in such a way that it was so clear to everyone you wouldn't have that happen.

You'd think.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

[

You're talking about Edward Gibbon's claim that Theophilus of Alexandria burned the Alexandrian Library, but that's been falsified. What he destroyed under the decree of the emperor was the Serpeum Temple, which had previously housed part of the library, but not after the Fourth Century. In any event, Theophilus was an apostate of what had become in many quarters a corrupt theocracy, which biblical Christianity repudiates.

I think you are engaging in the "No True Scotsman" Fallacy here.

Oh Theophilus couldn't have been a TRUE Christian because he didn't believe in Jesus the way I believe in him.

And this is a flaw in your thinking. By your own logic, 90% of people who call themselves "Christian" aren't following what Jesus taught. The Catholics, the Orthodox and other Protestant denominations are getting it all wrong.

Gee, you'd THINK a perfect God would explain something in such a way that it was so clear to everyone you wouldn't have that happen.

You'd think.

Theophilus was a murderer, a cruel despot. What are talking about? Dude.

 

[JoeB131]

[


Theophilus was a murderer, a cruel despot. What are talking about? Dude.

Exactly my point. He was a typical Christian. When you guys aren't murdering other people for not believing in Naked Dude on a Stick, you are killing each other for not believing in Naked Dude on a Stick the right way.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

Exactly my point. He was a typical Christian. When you guys aren't murdering other people for not believing in Naked Dude on a Stick, you are killing each other for not believing in Naked Dude on a Stick the right way.

No. That's not your point at all. Enough. Your aim is to confound historical facts and academic distinctions, as you think to smear the truth of Christ by association.

First, Gibbon's contention that Theophilus of Alexandria burned down the Alexandrian Library in 391 AD has been falsified, and based on the very best scholarship available to us today, it doesn't seem likely that any portion of the library was housed in the Serpeum Temple after the Fourth Century. In fact, the only single-event destructions of the Alexandrian Library alleged to have occurred by historians of that period were alternately attributed to the actions of Julius Caesar, Emperor Aurelian Augustus or Caliph Umar (or Omar), but none of these accounts consistently hold up either. Instead, from what we know today, it's most likely that it was either systematically destroyed by a series of fires that spread to the Library due to the actions of warring factions within the Empire or to those of foreign invaders over the course of centuries; or the bulk of it was, in fact, not lost at all, but broken up and moved to various academies of learning over the centuries, for example, to the Imperial Library of Constantinople, to the House of Wisdom in Iraq and to the Academy of Gondishapur in Iran. Portions of it were apparently recovered by Christians of the Reconquista period during which the Muslims were systematically driven out of Europe.

I see that you've failed to acknowledge your error on that point.

Second, Theophilus of Alexandria was an apostate, a cruel and vicious murderer. He was not a Christian. But if you want to go on pretending not to grasp the academic distinction between apostates who claim Christianity and those who actually live the teachings of Jesus Christ do so at your own peril. For your dissembling, your phony excuses and accusations, will not hold up before God.

Third, the Germanic tribes of Arianism were never regarded to be Christians by Catholic or Protestant orthodoxy due to the purely pagan origins of their theological construct regarding the nature of God. Before they converted to biblical orthodoxy, they were regarded to be Arian pagans, not Christians, just as Mormons, Christian Scientists, Jehovah's Witnesses and Unitarians, all of whom assert variations of the Arian or Gnostic heresies of pagan origin, are not regarded to be Christians in any sense by orthodoxy. In other words, they were regarded to be pagans by orthodox Christians of that time, just as Mormons and the like are regarded to be pagans by orthodox Christians today, in spite of the wont of secular scholars outside the body of Christ to refer to them as Arian Christians.

 

[JoeB131]

Exactly my point. He was a typical Christian. When you guys aren't murdering other people for not believing in Naked Dude on a Stick, you are killing each other for not believing in Naked Dude on a Stick the right way.

No. That's not your point at all. Enough. Your aim is to confound historical facts and academic distinctions, as you think to smear the truth of Christ by association.

You see, the problem with that is you want to talk about the "Truth of Christ", but then have no ownership over all the things that "Christians" do in his name, which he usually does nothing about.

First, Gibbon's contention that Theophilus of Alexandria burned down the Alexandrian Library in 391 AD has been falsified, and based on the very best scholarship available to us today, it doesn't seem likely that any portion of the library was housed in the Serpeum Temple after the Fourth Century. In fact, the only single-event destructions of the Alexandrian Library alleged to have occurred by historians of that period were alternately attributed to the actions of Julius Caesar, Emperor Aurelian Augustus or Caliph Umar (or Omar), but none of these accounts consistently hold up either. Instead, from what we know today, it's most likely that it was either systematically destroyed by a series of fires that spread to the Library due to the actions of warring factions within the Empire or to those of foreign invaders over the course of centuries; or the bulk of it was, in fact, not lost at all, but broken up and moved to various academies of learning over the centuries, for example, to the Imperial Library of Constantinople, to the House of Wisdom in Iraq and to the Academy of Gondishapur in Iran. Portions of it were apparently recovered by Christians of the Reconquista period during which the Muslims were systematically driven out of Europe.

I see that you've failed to acknowledge your error on that point.

I don't see it as an error. First, the fact that Theophilus burned down the Serpeum is a matter of historical record. And he did it on the order of the patriarch in Constantinople to destroy pagan writings and heretical texts.

Second, Theophilus of Alexandria was an apostate, a cruel and vicious murderer. He was not a Christian. But if you want to go on pretending not to grasp the academic distinction between apostates who claim Christianity and those who actually live the teachings of Jesus Christ do so at your own peril. For your dissembling, your phony excuses and accusations, will not hold up before God.

How was he an "Apostate". He didn't renounce Jesus or give up his faith, and he held a position of authority in the church.

Third, the Germanic tribes of Arianism were never regarded to be Christians by Catholic or Protestant orthodoxy due to the purely pagan origins of their theological construct regarding the nature of God. Before they converted to biblical orthodoxy, they were regarded to be Arian pagans, not Christians, just as Mormons, Christian Scientists, Jehovah's Witnesses and Unitarians, all of whom assert variations of the Arian or Gnostic heresies of pagan origin, are not regarded to be Christians in any sense by orthodoxy. In other words, they were regarded to be pagans by orthodox Christians of that time, just as Mormons and the like are regarded to be pagans by orthodox Christians today, in spite of the wont of secular scholars outside the body of Christ to refer to them as Arian Christians.

You see, here's the problem with that point of view. And Jesus Christ on a Pogo Stick, I'm actually going to stick up for Mormons here.

The point is these groups read the same bible you guys do, might even have a better knowledge of it than a lot of Christians who just see their church as a nice place to hang out on Sunday and just hear the Disneyfied select scripture readings the Churches use. And they've read it and came up with different interpretations about whether Jesus was the son of God or if he existed before he was born or if Satan was his brother or not.

I also find it amusing that you think the Catholics (who were the only game in town for most of history) got it wrong until the Protestants came along and came up with their own readings.

So the Anglicans got it right, but the Catholics got it wrong?

Seriously, what kind of perfect God writes a bible that most people just plain old get wrong?

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

Exactly my point. He was a typical Christian. When you guys aren't murdering other people for not believing in Naked Dude on a Stick, you are killing each other for not believing in Naked Dude on a Stick the right way.

No. That's not your point at all. Enough. Your aim is to confound historical facts and academic distinctions, as you think to smear the truth of Christ by association.

You see, the problem with that is you want to talk about the "Truth of Christ", but then have no ownership over all the things that "Christians" do in his name, which he usually does nothing about.

First, Gibbon's contention that Theophilus of Alexandria burned down the Alexandrian Library in 391 AD has been falsified, and based on the very best scholarship available to us today, it doesn't seem likely that any portion of the library was housed in the Serpeum Temple after the Fourth Century. In fact, the only single-event destructions of the Alexandrian Library alleged to have occurred by historians of that period were alternately attributed to the actions of Julius Caesar, Emperor Aurelian Augustus or Caliph Umar (or Omar), but none of these accounts consistently hold up either. Instead, from what we know today, it's most likely that it was either systematically destroyed by a series of fires that spread to the Library due to the actions of warring factions within the Empire or to those of foreign invaders over the course of centuries; or the bulk of it was, in fact, not lost at all, but broken up and moved to various academies of learning over the centuries, for example, to the Imperial Library of Constantinople, to the House of Wisdom in Iraq and to the Academy of Gondishapur in Iran. Portions of it were apparently recovered by Christians of the Reconquista period during which the Muslims were systematically driven out of Europe.

I see that you've failed to acknowledge your error on that point.

I don't see it as an error. First, the fact that Theophilus burned down the Serpeum is a matter of historical record. And he did it on the order of the patriarch in Constantinople to destroy pagan writings and heretical texts.

Second, Theophilus of Alexandria was an apostate, a cruel and vicious murderer. He was not a Christian. But if you want to go on pretending not to grasp the academic distinction between apostates who claim Christianity and those who actually live the teachings of Jesus Christ do so at your own peril. For your dissembling, your phony excuses and accusations, will not hold up before God.

How was he an "Apostate". He didn't renounce Jesus or give up his faith, and he held a position of authority in the church.

Third, the Germanic tribes of Arianism were never regarded to be Christians by Catholic or Protestant orthodoxy due to the purely pagan origins of their theological construct regarding the nature of God. Before they converted to biblical orthodoxy, they were regarded to be Arian pagans, not Christians, just as Mormons, Christian Scientists, Jehovah's Witnesses and Unitarians, all of whom assert variations of the Arian or Gnostic heresies of pagan origin, are not regarded to be Christians in any sense by orthodoxy. In other words, they were regarded to be pagans by orthodox Christians of that time, just as Mormons and the like are regarded to be pagans by orthodox Christians today, in spite of the wont of secular scholars outside the body of Christ to refer to them as Arian Christians.

You see, here's the problem with that point of view. And Jesus Christ on a Pogo Stick, I'm actually going to stick up for Mormons here.

The point is these groups read the same bible you guys do, might even have a better knowledge of it than a lot of Christians who just see their church as a nice place to hang out on Sunday and just hear the Disneyfied select scripture readings the Churches use. And they've read it and came up with different interpretations about whether Jesus was the son of God or if he existed before he was born or if Satan was his brother or not.

I also find it amusing that you think the Catholics (who were the only game in town for most of history) got it wrong until the Protestants came along and came up with their own readings.

So the Anglicans got it right, but the Catholics got it wrong?

Seriously, what kind of perfect God writes a bible that most people just plain old get wrong?

So you're still not acknowledging the fact of your erroneous claim that Theophilus burned down the Alexandria Library, eh?

Still pretending not to understand why Theophilus was an apostate, eh?

I'm not going to discuss theological/biblical matters with a liar . . . eh.

 

[JoeB131]

[

So you're still not acknowledging the fact of your erroneous claim that Theophilus burned down the Alexandria Library, eh?

Still pretending not to understand why Theophilus was an apostate, eh?

I'm not going to discuss theological/biblical matters with a liar . . . eh.

Well, probably has more to do with the fact that you are arguing about fairy tales with someone who understands science.

Theophilus burned down the Alexandria Library. And he wasn't declared an "Apostate" in his own lifetime. In fact, his family controlled the church in Alexandria for generations that followed. His Nephew Cyril is the one who instigated the murder of the philosopher Hypatia.