Zone1 Can you find the Flaw in Atheist Speaker Christopher Hitchens' Logic Here.

[alang1216]

Zoroastrianism is dualism not mono theism.

Is Judaism the only monotheist religion?

 

[ding]

Always seemed illogical that the one God would choose one single, insignificant tribe be his beacon to the world. Logic would say that if there are many gods, picking one to make your covenant with makes more sense.

Even ones with a strong heritage of passing down traditions orally from generation to generation? If I recall, it said somewhere in the OT that they weren't the first. So maybe they weren't the only ones. Maybe even now some groups are receiving revelations on how to be.

No offense but that's idiotic logic. You continue to underestimate what believing in a moralistic and providential creator means in practical terms. You can believe in any number of gods you like, but if that belief offers no functional advantage, then what do you gain? So whether you pick one, two or twenty, it's not the number that matters. It's the core belief that matters. And it just so happens that the core belief of a moralistic and providential creator is that not all behaviors lead to equal outcomes. That some lead to better outcomes like peace, order and harmony and others lead to discord, disorder and chaos. And really, isn't that what we see? Don't forget what Darwin says, functional advantage leads to surviving and flourishing.

 

[ding]

Is Judaism the only monotheist religion?

The Hindus make the claim that they were the first. And they may be right. I have tons of respect for them.

And then there are the Native Americam Indians....

Native American spiritual beliefs are diverse and do not fit a single category, but many tribes traditionally practiced a form of, or leaned toward, monotheism, often centered on a "Great Spirit," Creator, or a supreme life force (e.g., Abaꞌ Binniꞌliꞌ in Chickasaw, Ha-wen-ne-yu in Iroquois). However, these beliefs are often combined with animism, polytheism, or pantheism, where the Creator is honored alongside various other spirits and nature forces.

Key details regarding Native American spiritual, traditionally not classified as strict Western monotheism:

• The Great Spirit: Many tribes believed in an overarching, all-powerful creator, sometimes called the "Great Mystery" (e.g., Wakan Tanka among the Sioux), representing an energy or life force present in all things rather than a singular, anthropomorphic God.
• Animism & Polytheism: Beliefs frequently included the recognition of multiple spirits in nature, such as the Sun, animals, or elements, which could reward or punish.
• Diverse Practices: With hundreds of distinct tribes, spiritual practices varied widely. Some tribes, such as the Navajo, focused on complex, multiple-world narratives and sacred elements.
• Modern Context: The Native American Church, established in 1918, incorporates monotheistic beliefs about a Great Spirit, sometimes blended with Christian concepts.
  

Some scholars suggest that while a supreme creator was recognized, it was often in conjunction with, or as an overseer of, other spiritual beings, making it more of a henotheistic or panentheistic system.

 

[alang1216]

Even ones with a strong heritage of passing down traditions orally from generation to generation? If I recall, it said somewhere in the OT that they weren't the first. So maybe they weren't the only ones. Maybe even now some groups are receiving revelations on how to be.

The Hellenistic world passed the Iliad and the Odyssey orally and they, under Alexander, would have spread God's message faster and wider.

No offense but that's idiotic logic. You continue to underestimate what believing in a moralistic and providential creator means in practical terms. You can believe in any number of gods you like, but if that belief offers no functional advantage, then what do you gain? So whether you pick one, two or twenty, it's not the number that matters. It's the core belief that matters. And it just so happens that the core belief of a moralistic and providential creator is that not all behaviors lead to equal outcomes. That some lead to better outcomes like peace, order and harmony and others lead to discord, disorder and chaos. And really, isn't that what we see? Don't forget what Darwin says, functional advantage leads to surviving and flourishing.

On the other hand it is idiotic to overestimate it. All Christians profess to believe but still manage to kill each other over religious practices while pagans would just peacefully add a new religion into their pantheon.

 

[ding]

The Hellenistic world passed the Iliad and the Odyssey orally and they, under Alexander, would have spread God's message faster and wider.

Your point being?

On the other hand it is idiotic to overestimate it. All Christians profess to believe but still manage to kill each other over religious practices while pagans would just peacefully add a new religion into their pantheon.

Darwin says it's not idiotic to overestimate functional advantage. And certain behaviors offer functional advanatges over others, no? So is your argument that if not everyone does perfect things that means the premise is wrong? Certainly not. So whether people follow it or not doesn't change the fact that they will either suffer consequences or reap rewards for how they behave. Right? It's self correcting.

 

[ding]

The Hellenistic world passed the Iliad and the Odyssey orally and they, under Alexander, would have spread God's message faster and wider.

Looks like you are right.

Greeks and Greek culture were absolutely instrumental in spreading Christianity. The widespread use of the Koine Greek language facilitated communication of the gospel, while Greek philosophy provided a conceptual framework that early church fathers used to explain Christian theology. Furthermore, Byzantine Greek missionaries were pivotal in spreading Orthodox Christianity across Eastern Europe.

Key Contributions of Greeks to the Spread of Christianity:

• Language and Communication: Alexander the Great’s conquests spread Koine Greek, which became the lingua franca of the Eastern Mediterranean, allowing the New Testament to be written in Greek and easily understood.
• Intellectual Framework: Early church fathers (e.g., Clement of Alexandria, Justin Martyr) used Greek philosophical concepts, such as those from Plato and the Stoics, to articulate and defend Christian doctrines.
• Early Missionary Fields: The Apostle Paul’s missionary journeys focused heavily on Greek-influenced cities like Thessalonica, Corinth, and Athens, establishing the first European Christian communities.
• Byzantine Missions: The Byzantine Empire, centered in Constantinople, sent missionaries to Slavic nations, with Saints Cyril and Methodius creating the Cyrillic script to make the Bible accessible to non-Greek speakers.
  

While Christianity originated in Judea, it was the Hellenistic world that provided the infrastructure, language, and intellectual tools necessary for it to become a global religion.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Is this another conspiracy theory? I do love hearing conspiracy theories. Go on then.

You Never Miss a Chance to Miss the Point

 

[alang1216]

Your point being?

God bet on the wrong horse.

Darwin says it's not idiotic to overestimate functional advantage. And certain behaviors offer functional advanatges over others, no? So is your argument that if not everyone does perfect things that means the premise is wrong? Certainly not. So whether people follow it or not doesn't change the fact that they will either suffer consequences or reap rewards for how they behave. Right? It's self correcting.

Your premise is unproven, at least to me. I offer Trump as a supporting argument. He has done well while exhibiting no moral compass.

 

[ding]

You Never Miss a Chance to Miss the Point

I do love the hunt.

 

[ding]

God bet on the wrong horse.

How so?

 

[The Duke]

I say "the flaw," but no doubt there are more than one flaw to be found. Not a slam on him, but any talk about a controversial topic is bound to be full of flaws from the point of view of folks on the other side of the opinion given (or implied in this case).

I've heard the name Christopher Hitchens, but I'm much more familiar with the name Richard Dawkins, whose work I have debunked many times. Anyway, Hitchens claims to be both British and American, which is ironic considering he no doubt finds aburd the idea that Jesus was both man and God.



For those of you who don't like to watch videos of atheists smugly pontificating, I'll give you the briefest of versions: How likely is it, asks Hitchens, that obscure and illiterate people in the middle east suddenly were provided through devine intervention, the one true religion?

I assume he means the Jews, and later, the Christians. These type folks never have a negative word to say about Islam or Muslims.

He leads with "200, 000 years", that's not established fact, no!
Not a disproval of his logic, but there's more..

 

[ding]

Your premise is unproven, at least to me.

Which part is unproven and what would it take to prove it?

1. Do you not believe that all behaviors have equal outcomes such that certain behaviors offer functional advanatges over others?
2. Or do you not believe a distribution exists within a population?
3. Or do you believe it can only be true if everyone follows it all of the time?

I offer Trump as a supporting argument. He has done well while exhibiting no moral compass.

So you think that represents the rule instead of the exception? What would you say the rule is?

 

[alang1216]

Which part is unproven and what would it take to prove it?

1. Do you not believe that all behaviors have equal outcomes such that certain behaviors offer functional advanatges over others?
2. Or do you not believe a distribution exists within a population?
3. Or do you believe it can only be true if everyone follows it all of the time?

So you think that represents the rule instead of the exception? What would you say the rule is?

I think people and societies are too complex to be described by a simple rule. All of us are a mix so none display a single, consistent behavior.

 

[Seymour Flops]

He leads with "200, 000 years", that's not established fact, no!
Not a disproval of his logic, but there's more..

No, I haven't heard that 200K figure before. But of course, he says "The human species could be as old as 200,000 years," not "humans have been around for 200,000 years."

His first words were "here's what you have to believe to be amontheist . . ." Wrong. There is no one way to be a monotheist and there is no particular set of beliefs you must adhere to in order to ba a monotheist. Monotheism is a belief in and of itself and is the basis for several faiths and belief systems.

 

[sealybobo]

Thats not a psychopath there are other forms of mental illness that can cause the same acts. Rob Reiners son was a schizophrenic. Major depression has caused the murder suicide we see.

Famous individuals commonly cited as having or exhibiting traits of Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD) are typically notorious criminals, including Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy, Aileen Wuornos, and Charles Manson. These individuals demonstrated a chronic, severe disregard for the rights of others, lack of remorse, and manipulative behavior.

These people, like you, tried to warn us

More than 200 health professionals say Trump has ‘malignant narcissism’ in open letter​

Less than two weeks before the presidential election, the group bought a full-page ad styled as an open letter in the New York Times on Thursday, arguing that the Republican nominee for the White House is “an existential threat to democracy” in the US.


The ad was funded by Anti-Psychopath Pac – a political action committee that has produced attack ads questioning Trump’s mental fitness for office.

“Even a non-clinician can see that Trump shows a lifetime pattern of ‘failure to conform to social norms and laws,’ ‘repeated lying,’ ‘reckless disregard for the safety of others,’ ‘irritability,’ ‘impulsivity,’ ‘irresponsibility,’ and ‘lack of remorse,’” the letter said.

If you don't agree you are/were a quack

The professionals argued that disorder they discern in Trump “makes him deceitful, destructive, deluded, and dangerous”

 

[ding]

I think people and societies are too complex to be described by a simple rule. All of us are a mix so none display a single, consistent behavior.

So hard work - as opposed to being lazy - isn't a rule for success? Who knew?

But to your point, if what you are saying is true, then you are in no position to argue my premise is untrue. Because my premise that certain behaviors offer functional advanatges over others is indeed a rule. And as such will be subject to distributions which don't negate the rule but prove the rule. But according to you societies are too complex to be able to say that certain behaviors offer functional advanatges over others is indeed a rule because you don't believe aspects of societies can be described by a rule. If what you are now claiming is true, you would have never said in the first place that you are unconvinced. You would have said people and societies are too complex to say that about. Which you didn't.

 

[alang1216]

So hard work - as opposed to being lazy - isn't a rule for success? Who knew?

Hard work is good but hardly the only or even the most important factor. Intelligence and luck are even more important.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

I do love the hunt.

A Blind Eye for the Bullseye

Your prey is safe and can ignore you. You always miss when you fire at them.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

These people, like you, tried to warn us

More than 200 health professionals say Trump has ‘malignant narcissism’ in open letter​

Less than two weeks before the presidential election, the group bought a full-page ad styled as an open letter in the New York Times on Thursday, arguing that the Republican nominee for the White House is “an existential threat to democracy” in the US.


The ad was funded by Anti-Psychopath Pac – a political action committee that has produced attack ads questioning Trump’s mental fitness for office.

“Even a non-clinician can see that Trump shows a lifetime pattern of ‘failure to conform to social norms and laws,’ ‘repeated lying,’ ‘reckless disregard for the safety of others,’ ‘irritability,’ ‘impulsivity,’ ‘irresponsibility,’ and ‘lack of remorse,’” the letter said.

If you don't agree you are/were a quack

The professionals argued that disorder they discern in Trump “makes him deceitful, destructive, deluded, and dangerous”

They're Called "Shrinks" Because They Shrink What's in a Patient's Wallet

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Hard work is good but hardly the only or even the most important factor. Intelligence and luck are even more important.

Science Is for Suckers. There Are No Men in MENSA.

The intelligent are pushed into becoming Cash Cows for Corporate Cowboys. The plutocracy's wealth comes from the Grand Larceny of corporate patents.

"From Each According to His Abilities, To Each According to His Greed."