Zone1 The Book of Enoch...How should Christians think about it, and why does it matter?

[buttercup]

As I have said so many times, you have the freedom to be vegan and not eat animals if you feel that's best for YOU.

You don't have the freedom to tell ME this is the best way to live as a Christian. It's almost unbelievable to me that this is even an argument when God Himself instituted the practice of animal sacrifice--and these animals were not even for eating.

Really. There's nothing else that can be said. You do you, as you are free to do. The rest of us are also free to follow our consciences, as the Bible states over and over.

You're moving the goalposts now. The whole reason we're having this conversation is because YOU brought it up and said that veganism is not a virtue of Christianity. I responded by saying that on the very first page of the Bible, God set up a Garden of Eden that was basically vegan - humans and animals living together in peace and harmony, and no flesh eating. That was GOD's idea. Mercy is indeed a virtue of Christianity, and that is what biblical veganism is for me, it boils down to mercy.

So instead of refuting that or even discussing that, now you're moving the goal posts and playing the "christian freedom and don't tell me what to do" card. You're saying what you always say on these threads, and I knew you were going to do that on this one too.

But here's the thing. I have NOT told you to go vegan. I didn't even bring up the topic on this thread, YOU did. You brought it up, and then you expect me to not say what I believe? When someone says something that is misleading, I will state what I believe whether you like it or not.

No one is telling you to go vegan, so there's no need to be so defensive. If you feel personally judged because I said it's about mercy, then it's your conscience that you're fighting, not me. Because again, I am just stating what I believe based on God's perfect will both in the beginning and the end, and the numerous commands in the Bible about love, mercy, kindness, selflessness, etc.

And again, the only reason I stated these truths is because YOU brought it up, not me. So don't play the victim.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

You don't have the freedom to tell ME this is the best way to live as a Christian

I'm afraid we do. And by "we" I mean ANYONE who disagrees with you has the RIGHT to disagree with you.

You keep throwing out that asinine argument and it is just not true

 

[surada]

It contains partial truth, but more critically it's not a true eyewitnessing account. The Bible doesn't pursue the detailed description of the physical hell/sheol/Hades. In NT, Paul is the only Apostle who is supernaturally called. However, the Third Heaven experience is only mentioned briefly and with a wording of "no one is permitted to tell".

God established the Bible Canon like this,
An overwhelmingly described hell/sheol/Hades is disallowed, as it can't be a valid eyewitness account. This is physically enforced through the fact that the OT Canon enforcers are the Pharisees however they are subject to the authority of the Great Sanhedrin. They need endorsement from the Sadducees in order to include any book to the Bible Canon. However, the Sadducees who only embrace the 5 books of Law will disallow the adding of book full of hell descriptions. Sadducees are disbelievers of hell, angels, afterlife, etc., though the Pharisaic concepts dominates the Jews.

There's almost no chance that the book of Enoch can pass the censorship of the Great Sanhedrin to be part of the OT Canon.

NT then, is to preach a good news (but not hell). Even Paul who is a elite Pharisee seldom mention the concept as it's not the focus. Only Jesus mentioned it as He is the one faced the Jews and Pharisees who upheld such a Pharisaic concept firmly. Since preaching the gospel is the goal and focus, hell is rather a distraction or even a stumbling block to the spreading of Christianity.

There's almost no chance that the book of Enoch can pass the canonization process of NT to be included into the Canon. So by God's will, it shouldn't be included.

However, the Jewish concept of demon could possibly developed from this book it may still hold some truth about what demons are, and etc.

Look when the book of Enoch was written.

Late 2nd century BC.

Biblical literature - Apocrypha, Pseudepigrapha, & Enoch

Biblical literature - Apocrypha, Pseudepigrapha, & Enoch: Another book that was written during the period of the apocalyptic movement in which the Dead Sea sect came into existence is the Book of Enoch, or I Enoch. It was completely preserved in an Ethiopic translation from Greek, and large...

www.britannica.com

 

[SweetSue92]

I'm afraid we do. And by "we" I mean ANYONE who disagrees with you has the RIGHT to disagree with you.

You keep throwing out that asinine argument and it is just not true

What are the essentials of Christianity?

Do you know?

 

[Carl in Michigan]

What are the essentials of Christianity?

Do you know?

11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. 13 And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”

 

[Carl in Michigan]

What are the essentials of Christianity?

The "essentials" aren't good enough for a professing "christian." You're supposed to be GROWING in faith and understanding. You have your habits and you are angry when anyone challenges those cultural habits.

Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one. And as for you, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

 

[Cougarbear]

The Book of Enoch is somewhat controversial. Obviously there are different ideas among Christians about the book of Enoch.

I'm going to share a video that's an excellent presentation on the Book of Enoch. But for those who don't want to watch an hour-long video, I'll post a few points that are brought up in this video.

What Christians think about the Book of Enoch can be summed up into 3 basic views...

1. There is the view that the entire Book of Enoch is pseudepigrapha, in other words not actually written by Enoch, and therefore not trustworthy.
   
   
2. There is a second view, on the other extreme, that all of it is actually from Enoch, and therefore authoritative and trustworthy.
   
   
3. And the third view is that some of it (at least the first 19 chapters) is authoritative, because the Bible itself attests to it, and many early church fathers also attest to it.

I personally think the best and safest view is the third view, that some of it, namely the first 19 chapters, IS authentic and therefore authoritative.

Why should any Christian hold that view, if this book was not included in the Canon?

Well, for one thing, many Christians hold an outdated view that the entire book of Enoch is pseudepigrapha, because before 1976, that was the near-consensus position.

However, ever since the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, that changed. Why? Because before 1976, the Book of Enoch was thought to be newer than the New Testament. But then in the Dead Sea Scrolls, a manuscript was found that predated the entire New Testament, so that showed that the previous position was exactly backwards.

The Epistle of Jude, which previously was thought to be the basis for 1 Enoch is now best understood as a clear testimony for the authenticity of the Book of Enoch.

Also, many of the early church fathers attested to the authenticity of the stories in the Book of Enoch, such as the position that Genesis 6 refers to the angels who sinned and mated with human women, which created the Nephilim (giants.) In their writings, these church fathers treated the Book of Enoch as authoritative.

In fact, although in today's world many Christians hold the view that the "Sons of God" in Genesis 6 refers to the line of Seth, the view that the Sons of God were angels (who fell from grace) is the view of antiquity, it was the near-unanimous consensus prior to the 5th century, when the Sethite view started. You can read more about that in this article.

There's much more that can be said here, but for anyone who is interested in this topic, I highly recommend watching the video I'm going to post below.

Why does this even matter? Well, the book of Enoch talks about a number of very interesting things, including the Nephilim, and the origin of many practices that people (including Christians) partake in every day, without even knowing the origin of those practices. So, if we hold the position that the book of Enoch is at least partially authentic, which is the most logical position for Christians to hold, since Jude and Jesus Himself attest to it, then I believe Christians should not reject it, or avoid looking into it because they don't know what to think about it.

I don't want to do it now but later I want to bring up something that is referenced in the Book of Enoch that is very important because it has to do with something people do everyday. I'm actually putting together a video on that, so when it's done I'll share it here for anyone who is interested.

I don't expect the non-believers here to believe the Book of Enoch, but for the Christians here... what are your thoughts on the Book of Enoch? Again, I really hope you take the time to watch this video, as Craig goes into it in much more depth, and in a very clear, methodical way.

(The first few minutes is just announcements and stuff, and also waiting for the livestream to start, so I'm going to skip that part and embed this video starting a few minutes into the video)

The City of Enoch is most important. Why was it raised from the earth? Here is why. The point for us to go through life is to have the opportunity to choose good or evil, right or wrong. When neither are possible for the people, the people must be removed from the earth. Sodom and Gomorrah and the entire earth with the flood for that matter. Israel had to kill off the Cananites and others for the same reason. And, with Enoch, they chose good and good only to the point they were never going to choose evil. They had passed the test of life in the good way. So, they were all raised into heaven.

 

[talksalot]

I'm not going to debate anyone on the topic of veganism in this thread, but I will say Enoch (whom the apostle Jude quoted about the Last Days) reveals the origin of meat eating.

This with the prophet Daniel and his refusal to eat the kings food (meat) but only vegetables, AND the FACT that the Jerusalem Church (under the apostles) abstained from eating meat and were criticized by the ROMAN church in the 3rd century for it, were among MANY reasons I had slowly abandoned the pagan practice of meat eating.

Enoch is just one of MANY proofs (for those who have eyes to see)

The animals they were eating had been sacrificed to pagan gods. Jews ate meat from the animals they sacrificed to Jehovah.

 

[talksalot]

its not in the kjv and most others for a reason.

Because it's outlandish.

 

[talksalot]

Well, then you are basically saying that Jude is a false prophet, that Peter was wrong, and that Jesus Himself was wrong, because He referenced something directly from the Book of Enoch, and called it scripture. You're also saying that numerous early church fathers were wrong to refer to the Book of Enoch as authoritative. So your view is very problematic, to put it mildly.

The story about angels coming to earth and becoming evil is part of Hebrew mysticism from the Midrash and Talmud oral traditions. Jude and Peter were familiar, maybe Enoch heard and recorded them also. It doesn't make Enoch Bible-worthy.

Jesus wasn't quoting Enoch; neither an exact quote or a close reference, when answering the Sadducees. Sadducees didn't understand scripture and neither do you.

Your desire to believe in the book of Enoch is what's problematic.

 

[buttercup]

The story about angels coming to earth and becoming evil is part of Hebrew mysticism from the Midrash and Talmud oral traditions. Jude and Peter were familiar, maybe Enoch heard and recorded them also. It doesn't make Enoch Bible-worthy.

Jesus wasn't quoting Enoch; neither an exact quote or a close reference, when answering the Sadducees. Sadducees didn't understand scripture and neither do you.

Your desire to believe in the book of Enoch is what's problematic.

You're entitled to your opinion, but it's still just that, opinion. As I said in an earlier post, the angelic interpretation of Genesis 6 was the near-unanimous consensus among the early church fathers, up until the 5th century. The Sethite view doesn't make sense for a number of reasons, and doesn't fit with the scriptures or history. And the reason the Sethite view started was because critics were attacking Christianity and the angelic interpretation of Genesis 6 - because it IS shocking and hard to wrap one's mind around - was starting to be viewed as an embarrassment. So someone came up with a more palatable interpretation. But again, the Sethite view doesn't fit with the scriptures and it doesn't make sense for a number of reasons.

Yes, Jesus was referencing the book of Enoch, and if you had watched the video I posted, you'd see why.

It appears that you didn't read the OP at all. I'll repeat what was said in post #1. Ever since the Dead Sea Scrolls discovery, we now know that the Book of Enoch is OLDER than the New Testament. So for you to say that Enoch heard and recorded what Jude said is exactly backwards.

Please take a few minutes to read the OP, before stating more things that are simply false.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

You're entitled to your opinion, but it's still just that, opinion. As I said in an earlier post, the angelic interpretation of Genesis 6 was the near-unanimous consensus among the early church fathers, up until the 5th century. The Sethite view doesn't make sense for a number of reasons, and doesn't fit with the scriptures or history. And the reason the Sethite view started was because critics were attacking Christianity and the angelic interpretation of Genesis 6 - because it IS shocking and hard to wrap one's mind around - was starting to be viewed as an embarrassment. So someone came up with a more palatable interpretation. But again, the Sethite view doesn't fit with the scriptures and it doesn't make sense for a number of reasons.

Yes, Jesus was referencing the book of Enoch, and if you had watched the video I posted, you'd see why.

It appears that you didn't read the OP at all. I'll repeat what was said in post #1. Ever since the Dead Sea Scrolls discovery, we now know that the Book of Enoch is OLDER than the New Testament. So for you to say that Enoch heard and recorded what Jude said is exactly backwards.

Please take a few minutes to read the OP, before stating more things that are simply false.

Jesus, Peter and Jude all quoted/referenced the Book of Enoch. It seems they found it authoritative. When you approach it from that basis, it actually opens up your understanding and of what took place during the first Age -- the time prior to the Great Flood.

 

[buttercup]

The "essentials" aren't good enough for a professing "christian." You're supposed to be GROWING in faith and understanding. You have your habits and you are angry when anyone challenges those cultural habits.

Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one. And as for you, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

Excellent point about growing in faith and understanding. For born again Christians continual growth, maturing and sanctification is inevitable. We don't stay the same, the Bible says we go from "glory to glory".... and that requires the humility to know we have a long way to go, we are all a work in progress, but continually growing.

It's not about doing whatever we can get away with, the bare minimum. I hope Sue remembers the scripture: Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matthew 5:48) And we know God's perfect will IS NOT needless violence, killing and exploitation. Again, God's perfect will is made clear in both the beginning (Genesis 1:29-30) and the end, when God restores that peaceful world that was HIS intent in the first place. (Isaiah 11:6-9)

 

[buttercup]

Jesus, Peter and Jude all quoted/referenced the Book of Enoch. It seems they found it authoritative. When you approach it from that basis, it actually opens up your understanding and of what took place during the first Age -- the time prior to the Great Flood.

Yep. But talksalot disagrees.

It really is amazing how SO many pieces of the puzzle fit together when you realize what really was going on in Genesis 6. It is like a "Rosetta stone" in that regard.

 

[SweetSue92]

The "essentials" aren't good enough for a professing "christian." You're supposed to be GROWING in faith and understanding. You have your habits and you are angry when anyone challenges those cultural habits.

Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one. And as for you, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

You don't even go to church.

 

[buttercup]

For anyone who is interested in the topic of Genesis 6, I want to share another video. (It's a mirrored copy, so the picture quality is not as good as the original but it's still definitely worth watching.)

Who are the Sons of God in Genesis 6: The Sethite View Debunked

 

[Carl in Michigan]

You don't even go to church.

Another thread ead about ME

 

[surada]

Jesus, Peter and Jude all quoted/referenced the Book of Enoch. It seems they found it authoritative. When you approach it from that basis, it actually opens up your understanding and of what took place during the first Age -- the time prior to the Great Flood.

Enoch was written in the late 2nd century BC.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

For anyone who is interested in the topic of Genesis 6, I want to share another video. (It's a mirrored copy, so the picture quality is not as good as the original but it's still definitely worth watching.)

Who are the Sons of God in Genesis 6: The Sethite View Debunked


Urch I attended taught

That's what the church I attended taught. It never seemed right when I heard it. The Book of Enoch "rings true"

 

[surada]

Because it's outlandish.

The Israelites didn't kill off the Canaanites.... neither did Joshua.