Zone1 The Book of Enoch...How should Christians think about it, and why does it matter?

[buttercup]

The Book of Enoch is somewhat controversial. Obviously there are different ideas among Christians about the book of Enoch.

I'm going to share a video that's an excellent presentation on the Book of Enoch. But for those who don't want to watch an hour-long video, I'll post a few points that are brought up in this video.

What Christians think about the Book of Enoch can be summed up into 3 basic views...

1. There is the view that the entire Book of Enoch is pseudepigrapha, in other words not actually written by Enoch, and therefore not trustworthy.
   
   
2. There is a second view, on the other extreme, that all of it is actually from Enoch, and therefore authoritative and trustworthy.
   
   
3. And the third view is that some of it (at least the first 19 chapters) is authoritative, because the Bible itself attests to it, and many early church fathers also attest to it.

I personally think the best and safest view is the third view, that some of it, namely the first 19 chapters, IS authentic and therefore authoritative.

Why should any Christian hold that view, if this book was not included in the Canon?

Well, for one thing, many Christians hold an outdated view that the entire book of Enoch is pseudepigrapha, because before 1976, that was the near-consensus position.

However, ever since the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, that changed. Why? Because before 1976, the Book of Enoch was thought to be newer than the New Testament. But then in the Dead Sea Scrolls, a manuscript was found that predated the entire New Testament, so that showed that the previous position was exactly backwards.

The Epistle of Jude, which previously was thought to be the basis for 1 Enoch is now best understood as a clear testimony for the authenticity of the Book of Enoch.

Also, many of the early church fathers attested to the authenticity of the stories in the Book of Enoch, such as the position that Genesis 6 refers to the angels who sinned and mated with human women, which created the Nephilim (giants.) In their writings, these church fathers treated the Book of Enoch as authoritative.

In fact, although in today's world many Christians hold the view that the "Sons of God" in Genesis 6 refers to the line of Seth, the view that the Sons of God were angels (who fell from grace) is the view of antiquity, it was the near-unanimous consensus prior to the 5th century, when the Sethite view started. You can read more about that in this article.

There's much more that can be said here, but for anyone who is interested in this topic, I highly recommend watching the video I'm going to post below.

Why does this even matter? Well, the book of Enoch talks about a number of very interesting things, including the Nephilim, and the origin of many practices that people (including Christians) partake in every day, without even knowing the origin of those practices. So, if we hold the position that the book of Enoch is at least partially authentic, which is the most logical position for Christians to hold, since Jude and Jesus Himself attest to it, then I believe Christians should not reject it, or avoid looking into it because they don't know what to think about it.

I don't want to do it now but later I want to bring up something that is referenced in the Book of Enoch that is very important because it has to do with something people do everyday. I'm actually putting together a video on that, so when it's done I'll share it here for anyone who is interested.

I don't expect the non-believers here to believe the Book of Enoch, but for the Christians here... what are your thoughts on the Book of Enoch? Again, I really hope you take the time to watch this video, as Craig goes into it in much more depth, and in a very clear, methodical way.

(The first few minutes is just announcements and stuff, and also waiting for the livestream to start, so I'm going to skip that part and embed this video starting a few minutes into the video)

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

An excellent talk, and yes, I believe it is inspired (God Breathed). There is so much in there.

 

[buttercup]

An excellent talk, and yes, I believe it is inspired (God Breathed). There is so much in there.

Yes, there is. A lot of it parallels what is written in the Bible. So it doesn't make much sense for Christians to reject the whole thing, not only because much of it parallels what's in the Old Testament, but also because the Bible itself references the Book of Enoch in a few places.

I just thought of something. I have to look into this more, so I don't know if this is true (and this is controversial) but I heard that one of the reasons the Jews did not include it in their Canon was because it contains prophecies about the Messiah that didn't go along with what the rabbis were teaching.

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

Jude quoted it.

I was rereading today how in the first 3 chapters alone he talks about the regular cycles of nature itself prove the Creator for those with eyes to see.

This month, the n my part of the world, the days are getting shorter, the leaves are beginning to turn and soon will drop off and my world will look dead until next May. It's been that way since Man walked the earth, until now. I'm seeing the very same things Enoch saw and mentioned. Kind of amazing:

---

The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be 2 living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed. And he took up his parable and said -Enoch a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in the heavens, which the angels showed me, and from them I heard everything, and from them I understood as I saw, but not for this generation, but for a remote one which is 3 for to come. Concerning the elect I said, and took up my parable concerning them

Observe ye everything that takes place in the heaven, how they do not change their orbits, and the luminaries which are in the heaven, how they all rise and set in order each in its season, and 2 transgress not against their appointed order. Behold ye the earth, and give heed to the things which take place upon it from first to last, how steadfast they are, how none of the things upon earth 3 change, but all the works of God appear to you. Behold the summer and the winter, how the whole earth is filled with water, and clouds and dew and rain lie upon it.​

[Chapter 3]​

Observe and see how (in the winter) all the trees seem as though they had withered and shed all their leaves, except fourteen trees, which do not lose their foliage but retain the old foliage from two to three years till the new comes.​

[Chapter 4]​

And again, observe ye the days of summer how the sun is above the earth over against it. And you seek shade and shelter by reason of the heat of the sun, and the earth also burns with growing heat, and so you cannot tread on the earth, or on a rock by reason of its heat.​

[Chapter 5]​

1 Observe ye how the trees cover themselves with green leaves and bear fruit: wherefore give ye heed and know with regard to all His works, and recognize how He that liveth for ever hath made them so. 2 And all His works go on thus from year to year for ever, and all the tasks which they accomplish for Him, and their tasks change not, but according as God hath ordained so is it done. 3 And behold how the sea and the rivers in like manner accomplish and change not their tasks from His commandments'.​

 

[Thunk]

I found it interesting that Enoch was Noahs great grampa.

 

[talksalot]

Enoch is fiction.

 

[buttercup]

Enoch is fiction.

Are you a Christian?

 

[buttercup]

I found it interesting that Enoch was Noahs great grampa.

View attachment 830282

Same here. And also, one of the only people, according to the Bible, who didn't die a normal death, but instead was 'taken up' by God.

 

[talksalot]

Are you a Christian?

yes

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

I'm not going to debate anyone on the topic of veganism in this thread, but I will say Enoch (whom the apostle Jude quoted about the Last Days) reveals the origin of meat eating.

This with the prophet Daniel and his refusal to eat the kings food (meat) but only vegetables, AND the FACT that the Jerusalem Church (under the apostles) abstained from eating meat and were criticized by the ROMAN church in the 3rd century for it, were among MANY reasons I had slowly abandoned the pagan practice of meat eating.

Enoch is just one of MANY proofs (for those who have eyes to see)

 

[buttercup]

yes

Well, then you are basically saying that Jude is a false prophet, that Peter was wrong, and that Jesus Himself was wrong, because He referenced something directly from the Book of Enoch, and called it scripture. You're also saying that numerous early church fathers were wrong to refer to the Book of Enoch as authoritative. So your view is very problematic, to put it mildly.

 

[buttercup]

I'm not going to debate anyone on the topic of veganism in this thread, but I will say Enoch (whom the apostle Jude quoted about the Last Days) reveals the origin of meat eating.

This with the prophet Daniel and his refusal to eat the kings food (meat) but only vegetables, AND the FACT that the Jerusalem Church (under the apostles) abstained from eating meat and were criticized by the ROMAN church in the 3rd century for it, were among MANY reasons I had slowly abandoned the pagan practice of meat eating.

Enoch is just one of MANY proofs (for those who have eyes to see)

That's the thing I alluded to in the OP that I was going to bring up later! ha. I'm going to make a video on that topic. I just started writing the script for it, so I'll be working on it this weekend and hopefully it will be done pretty soon.

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

I found it interesting that Enoch was Noahs great grampa.

View attachment 830282

This is how closely these lives were intertwined

Noah lived at the same time as all of these patriarchs except Adam, Seth and Enoch. Adam died 126 years before Noah was born; Seth died just 14 years before Noah. And Noah's great-grandfather, Enoch, was translated about four years before Noah's birth.

Methuselah died just before the Flood.

 

[Thunk]

Adam died 126 years before Noah was born; Seth died just 14 years before Noah. And Noah's great-grandfather, Enoch, was translated about four years before Noah's birth.

Seems odd. They all lived for 800-1,000 years...you'd thunk they were all alive at the same time.

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

Seems odd. They all lived for 800-1,000 years...you'd thunk they were all alive at the same time.

They kind of were. In terms of the lifespan of the times, Adam died just before the Flood!

He saw what became of the world and all it's evil. And it all happened because of HIS choice

 

[Thunk]

He saw what became of the world and all it's evil. And it all happened because of HIS choice

I don't thunk it was the eating of the apple that did it. I thunk there is something not taught that I get from the bible but nobody else seems to...OWN YOUR MISTAKES!

Adam blamed eve...Eve blamed the serpent & God doled out the punishments.

Then there was king david (I thunk it was king david?) whom God told to take a census of the people in a certain way...King david did so, but took the census in a different way & pissed off God something fierce.

God said he would punish king davids people & King david OWNED IT! He said "Lord...please...punish me...I am at fault, not my people".

And if I recall correctly, God doled out NO PUNISHMENTS.

 

[Votto]

Yes, there is. A lot of it parallels what is written in the Bible. So it doesn't make much sense for Christians to reject the whole thing, not only because much of it parallels what's in the Old Testament, but also because the Bible itself references the Book of Enoch in a few places.

I just thought of something. I have to look into this more, so I don't know if this is true (and this is controversial) but I heard that one of the reasons the Jews did not include it in their Canon was because it contains prophecies about the Messiah that didn't go along with what the rabbis were teaching.

Yes, some of the prophesies about the Messiah appear to have been written by Christians. In fact, you would swear that Peter himself was writing it, which is why the Jews rejected it.

Why the Christians rejected it is because of Constantine. Enoch is not kind to prophesy toward world leaders, which included himself. In fact, Constantine continued to worship the Roman pagan gods, although it is rumored, he tried to convert on his death bed. The man had his wife and son murdered.

So, there is Enoch, much older than Christianity but seemingly written by Christians. To me, this is the best example of evidence Jesus is the Messiah.

But you have to be careful, there are a variety of books of Enoch. I only ascribe to the older one referenced in prophesy in Jude and in the Dead Sea Scrolls. I've read the rest that was written much later and was not impressed with it.

 

[ninja007]

its not in the kjv and most others for a reason.

 

[luiza]

Big Enoch fan . He was only kicked out of Bible inclusion because it upset political considerations at the time . Was it Nicea around 325 AD , or , one of the other Butchery Convenience Councils around the same period ?

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

I don't thunk it was the eating of the apple that did it

It wasn't an "apple". It doesn't matter what hat it was. It was the act of GOING AGAINST GOD'S CLEAR COMMANDS.

Everyone is doing the same thing to this day.