Zone1 The Book of Enoch...How should Christians think about it, and why does it matter?

[surada]

That's what the church I attended taught. It never seemed right when I heard it. The Book of Enoch "rings true"

After Cain arrived in the Land of Nod, to which he was evicted by God as his punishment for murdering his own brother Abel, his wife became pregnant and bore Cain's first child, whom he named Enoch.

This Enoch is not to be confused with Enoch, son of Jared, to whom the authorship of the Book of Enoch is ascribed.

After the birth of Enoch, the Hebrew text of Genesis 4:17 is unclear. Either Cain built a city and named it after the mighty Enoch, or else Enoch built a city. In the King James Bible, the text makes it clear that Cain built the city and named it after his son.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

For anyone who is interested in the topic of Genesis 6, I want to share another video. (It's a mirrored copy, so the picture quality is not as good as the original but it's still definitely worth watching.)

Who are the Sons of God in Genesis 6: The Sethite View Debunked

I just finished watching the video. So much good information in this videom He seems to have posted only for a year.

The only thing I have somewhat of a disagreement with is his understanding of "adopted" sons of God. The true Christian is literally a BEGOTTEN son of God with the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Despite the Protestant view of being "born again" that hasn't happened yet. We are "born again" when we are resurrected with new bodies that are not flesh and blood. But that's getting off the topic of this thread.

Great video anyway. Thanks for posting it.

 

[buttercup]

I just finished watching the video. So much good information in this videom He seems to have posted only for a year.

The only thing I have somewhat of a disagreement with is his understanding of "adopted" sons of God. The true Christian is literally a BEGOTTEN son of God with the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Despite the Protestant view of being "born again" that hasn't happened yet. We are "born again" when we are resurrected with new bodies that are not flesh and blood. But that's getting off the topic of this thread.

Great video anyway. Thanks for posting it.

Yw. Actually the speaker, the guy who made the video is not the person who uploaded it (it's a mirrored copy.) The guy who made the video is no longer on YouTube. I don't know if his channel got deleted or if he quit, but he was actually on there for like 10 years before his channel ended.

Respectfully, I disagree about being born again not happening yet... unless you're just talking about the new immortal bodies? Because yes of course that hasn't happened yet. But I don't want to get too off topic here. Thanks for watching it! I hope that the people here who reject the Book of Enoch based on the Nephilim will watch the video too.

 

[Michelle420]

This book does not change any of my beliefs. But I've read it.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

This book does not change any of my beliefs. But I've read it.

It definitely added to my understanding. It does raise more questions, which I'll throw out there oater

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Genesis barely touches on the reason for the Flood except to broadly state that Man had become exceedingly wicked. It also makes the interesting statement that Noah was "perfect in his generations." Genesis doesn't elaborate. What does "perfect in his generations" mean? We are also told that ALL FLESH had become "corrupt." That includes the animals. What does that mean? Some churches make this a race thing, saying that it refers to interracial mixing. I've never fully accepted that, but I do believe the races are to find their own destinies.

Enoch seems to suggest that Man, by the time of the Flood, had become "victims" of the interbreeding of fallen angels who rebelled against God, and human women. and ALL Mankind, and even the animals had become genetically (?) corrupt.

Was THIS why animals lost their docile nature along with Man?

We know that Noah didn't have to go out and gather the animals. God selected the animals He was to save, and put it in them to travel to the ark to be saved. Were these the animals who were "perfect in their generations" -- NOT corrupted by the fallen angels? But if so, why havent the saved animals passed on their Eden natures but instead retained their violent natures?

I lean toward thinking ALL CREATION is waiting for the fallen angels to be put away and the time when MAN changes. All of creation is waiting for Man to change.

 

[Woodznutz]

They kind of were. In terms of the lifespan of the times, Adam died just before the Flood!

He saw what became of the world and all it's evil. And it all happened because of HIS choice

Actually HER choice.

 

[Woodznutz]

Genesis barely touches on the reason for the Flood except to broadly state that Man had become exceedingly wicked. It also makes the interesting statement that Noah was "perfect in his generations." Genesis doesn't elaborate. What does "perfect in his generations" mean? We are also told that ALL FLESH had become "corrupt." That includes the animals. What does that mean? Some churches make this a race thing, saying that it refers to interracial mixing. I've never fully accepted that, but I do believe the races are to find their own destinies.

Enoch seems to suggest that Man, by the time of the Flood, had become "victims" of the interbreeding of fallen angels who rebelled against God, and human women. and ALL Mankind, and even the animals had become genetically (?) corrupt.

Was THIS why animals lost their docile nature along with Man?

We know that Noah didn't have to go out and gather the animals. God selected the animals He was to save, and put it in them to travel to the ark to be saved. Were these the animals who were "perfect in their generations" -- NOT corrupted by the fallen angels? But if so, why havent the saved animals passed on their Eden natures but instead retained their violent natures?

I lean toward thinking ALL CREATION is waiting for the fallen angels to be put away and the time when MAN changes. All of creation is waiting for Man to change.

Yes, the "whole creation groans in travail..."

 

[Woodznutz]

Christians worship on Sunday to celebrate the resurrection of Christ.

Jesus was resurrected on Saturday just before the end of the day. Of course, one can celebrate it any time.

 

[Woodznutz]

Millions of Christians don't. The Catholic Church was NOT given power to alter the COMMANDMENTS. They did it to bring in pagans on their own terms. God requires TOTAL surrender -- not mixing your beliefs with the Way

I'm working out my salvation with fear and trembling, but it doesn't include going vegan.

 

[Woodznutz]

Oh I know...but it may have been a little easier on them if they had owned it rather than pointing the finger. (just like king david).

Especially Adam who replied "It was the woman THAT YOU GAVE ME...who gave me the apple". Implying God was at fault (without actually saying it).

I'm just saying they might have handled it better when they got caught with their fig leaf down.

It should read the woman that you inflicted me with.

 

[Woodznutz]

You're moving the goalposts now. The whole reason we're having this conversation is because YOU brought it up and said that veganism is not a virtue of Christianity. I responded by saying that on the very first page of the Bible, God set up a Garden of Eden that was basically vegan - humans and animals living together in peace and harmony, and no flesh eating. That was GOD's idea. Mercy is indeed a virtue of Christianity, and that is what biblical veganism is for me, it boils down to mercy.

So instead of refuting that or even discussing that, now you're moving the goal posts and playing the "christian freedom and don't tell me what to do" card. You're saying what you always say on these threads, and I knew you were going to do that on this one too.

But here's the thing. I have NOT told you to go vegan. I didn't even bring up the topic on this thread, YOU did. You brought it up, and then you expect me to not say what I believe? When someone says something that is misleading, I will state what I believe whether you like it or not.

No one is telling you to go vegan, so there's no need to be so defensive. If you feel personally judged because I said it's about mercy, then it's your conscience that you're fighting, not me. Because again, I am just stating what I believe based on God's perfect will both in the beginning and the end, and the numerous commands in the Bible about love, mercy, kindness, selflessness, etc.

And again, the only reason I stated these truths is because YOU brought it up, not me. So don't play the victim.

I'm guessing that the sacrifice in the garden to cover the sin of A&E was roasted and eaten as the first passover lamb.

 

[buttercup]

I'm guessing that the sacrifice in the garden to cover the sin of A&E was roasted and eaten as the first passover lamb.

And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food.” - Genesis 1:29

There was no flesh eating in the Garden of Eden, sorry. But I suspect even you know that full well. Quit trolling.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

I'm working out my salvation with fear and trembling, but it doesn't include going vegan.

The demons fear and tremble too. So there's that.

I would have MERCY AND NOT SACRIFICE.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

The people who love the Book of Enoch in this thread do so because they have made veganism an idol. There is no other way to put it. They choose it; that's fine. But they want to make choosing it a virtue of Christianity. Which it just is not.

Another pro-abortion argument from "sweet" sue. You do realize this is the EXACT wording used by pro-aborts who call themselves "christian"? They think standing against the slaughter of innocent lives is "making an idol of 'baby worship too.

Sue, you cannot get past what GOD called GOOD in the Garden and what He tells is is how YOU will live in His Kingdom or you simply won't be there. YOU keep making this thread about veganism. YOU want to argue this point, but you just keep losing. Maybe YOU need to quit trying to make this thread about veganism. I'm sensing a conscience issue. So THIS comes to mind:
"To know to do good, and to do it not, it is a sin unto you"

 

[Carl in Michigan]

I really didn't want to get into an argument on veganism, but your statement above is so incredibly wrong, I feel like I have to respond to it. You might want to read the very first page of the Bible, where God gave mankind our diet, and that was God's intent for all creation - not violence and bloodshed, but peace and harmony between humans and animals, and a healthy, natural plantbased diet. That's how it was in the Garden of Eden (see Genesis 1:29-30) and that same world of peace and nonviolence is again clearly stated in the prophetic scriptures, like Isaiah 11:6-9 and Isaiah 65:25.

So both the beginning and the end are perfectly clear. Peace and harmony among humans and animals. And in between, in the here and now? Does God want selfish exploitation, cruelty and needless brutal killing? No, absolutely not, and anyone who thinks otherwise is woefully mistaken. There are tons and tons of verses that tell us how God wants us to live...to do ALL things in love (1 Cor 16:14) to be MERCIFUL, (Luke 6:36) peace and gentleness (Gal 5:22-23) as opposed to needless violence, selflessness (1 Cor 10:24) and living by the Golden Rule. That is how God wants us to live in the meantime, in this fallen world. Not to embrace the callous violent temporary practices of this fallen world that were never part of His true intent for all creation.

I think where you go wrong is that you seem to think of veganism as only a diet. But it's not a diet, it's a choice to not harm animals unnecessarily. From a Christian standpoint it simply boils down to choosing MERCY. So to say that mercy is not a virtue of Christianity is as upside-down and backwards as it gets. Mercy absolutely IS a virtue of Christianity, that should go without saying.

She's grasping. She ignores the fact that God CALLS the Christian OUT of the violent ways of this world. She believes, as a Christian, that God's will on earth is NOT necessary in her life. Jesus' prayer, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." is not an admonition from the Father to live a life reflective of the Kingdom on the earth. She knows better. She just wants what she wants.

 

[DudleySmith]

Both Jews and Christians read and wrote lots of literature and tracts that didn't end up as 'canon'. It had nothing to do 'with Constantine in 325' or any other reason than it doesn't belong in the canon, and for a number of very good reasons., all of which are easily found by those in the Peanut Gallery via searching for them.

The persistent myth of 'Constantine ordered lot of bishops around and rewrote it all' is pure rubbish, just a fantasy some have of trying to discredit the orthodoxy so they can peddling their own personal wish list of rewrites as 'legitimate'. Most of the books were already accepted long before Constantine, for one, and only one or two were considered controversial, mainly Hebrews, because of its uncertain provenance, but was eventually accepted because of its important messages. The OT was largely settled as well by early Christians as to what was to be included by the end of the 1st Century A.D.

Reasons for rejection didn't necessarily mean the writings or theology was false; some were just passion literature, some were redundant and merely repeating what was already in other books, and so on. The Shepherd Of Hermas was very popular and read in church serivces at one time, but it was not canon.

The Shepherd of Hermas

Other early writings are also listed at the link, for those interested in further historical study. See also:

The missing Gospels : Darrell L. Bock : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

archive.org

The Missing Gospels: Unearthing the Truth Behind Altern…

What others are saying about The Missing Gospels "Darre…

www.goodreads.com

there are better books for more detailed examinations, but Bock's is a very good introduction for lay people on how canon was decided and why some writings were rejected.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Jesus was resurrected on Saturday just before the end of the day. Of course, one can celebrate it any time.

Probably, but not known for certain. One thing we do KNOW is that he didn't die on Friday and the resurrection wasn't Sunday morning (He was dead 3 days and nights)

We also know the approaching Sabbath was but the weekly Sabbath but the Passover/unleavened bread

 

[surada]

Both Jews and Christians read and wrote lots of literature and tracts that didn't end up as 'canon'. It had nothing to do 'with Constantine in 325' or any other reason than it doesn't belong in the canon, and for a number of very good reasons., all of which are easily found by those in the Peanut Gallery via searching for them.

The persistent myth of 'Constantine ordered lot of bishops around and rewrote it all' is pure rubbish, just a fantasy some have of trying to discredit the orthodoxy so they can peddling their own personal wish list of rewrites as 'legitimate'. Most of the books were already accepted long before Constantine, for one, and only one or two were considered controversial, mainly Hebrews, because of its uncertain provenance, but was eventually accepted because of its important messages. The OT was largely settled as well by early Christians as to what was to be included by the end of the 1st Century A.D.

Reasons for rejection didn't necessarily mean the writings or theology was false; some were just passion literature, some were redundant and merely repeating what was already in other books, and so on. The Shepherd Of Hermas was very popular and read in church serivces at one time, but it was not canon.

The Shepherd of Hermas

Other early writings are also listed at the link, for those interested in further historical study. See also:

The missing Gospels : Darrell L. Bock : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

archive.org

The Missing Gospels: Unearthing the Truth Behind Altern…

What others are saying about The Missing Gospels "Darre…

www.goodreads.com

there are better books for more detailed examinations, but Bock's is a very good introduction for lay people on how canon was decided and why some writings were rejected.

Fascinating.

 

[Care4all]

I really didn't want to get into an argument on veganism, but your statement above is so incredibly wrong, I feel like I have to respond to it. You might want to read the very first page of the Bible, where God gave mankind our diet, and that was God's intent for all creation - not violence and bloodshed, but peace and harmony between humans and animals, and a healthy, natural plantbased diet. That's how it was in the Garden of Eden (see Genesis 1:29-30) and that same world of peace and nonviolence is again clearly stated in the prophetic scriptures, like Isaiah 11:6-9 and Isaiah 65:25.

So both the beginning and the end are perfectly clear. Peace and harmony among humans and animals. And in between, in the here and now? Does God want selfish exploitation, cruelty and needless brutal killing? No, absolutely not, and anyone who thinks otherwise is woefully mistaken. There are tons and tons of verses that tell us how God wants us to live...to do ALL things in love (1 Cor 16:14) to be MERCIFUL, (Luke 6:36) peace and gentleness (Gal 5:22-23) as opposed to needless violence, selflessness (1 Cor 10:24) and living by the Golden Rule. That is how God wants us to live in the meantime, in this fallen world. Not to embrace the callous violent temporary practices of this fallen world that were never part of His true intent for all creation.

I think where you go wrong is that you seem to think of veganism as only a diet. But it's not a diet, it's a choice to not harm animals unnecessarily. From a Christian standpoint it simply boils down to choosing MERCY. So to say that mercy is not a virtue of Christianity is as upside-down and backwards as it gets. Mercy absolutely IS a virtue of Christianity, that should go without saying.

Peace be with you.

I am ignorant on this Biblical diet topic, so please view any of my silly questions and comments from this perspective! . ( I do need to now spend time studying it)

After reading your post and a couple of others, A thought popped in to my head, and maybe a real silly thought...

-----------

I wondered if eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil that Eve, then Adam ate from, was actually us choosing to eat meat, and not just a vegan diet? I know it does not say that in what we are reading today in the Bible....

Why the thought came to me, is I was watching some documentary on human brain growth and science is claiming that when humans began to eat meat, our brains grew in size and we humans became much smarter, more KNOWLEDGEABLE.... And the story of eating the forbidden fruit, (yes I know it says fruit) from the tree of knowledge, might actually be describing when humans began eating meat and becoming smarter, more knowledgeable and this was original sin that we inherited....

With knowledge of both good and evil, after eating this forbidden food and God not wanting us to be more knowledgeable...and not just a biblical story about disobedience they had with God by eating some fruit they were not suppose to... Yes, they disobeyed God, but without further discussion that I as a layman am aware of, of God really not wanting us to become knowledgeable of the evil part of the Good and Evil? And by eating meat, is the point when science says humans had great advancement in knowledge?

Is this all mumbo jumbo....? Are my conjectures making any sense?

---------------------------

I am a meat eater...and boy do I crave and love it! Especially beef and chicken!

However, since the hubby and I have moved to rural Maine, we spend our time with all of God's creatures on a daily basis, we've befriended many different wild species, not just deer, and even from a distance watching how animals take care of their young, and each other as a heard or pack, and as a family unit....gives both of us a sense of awareness of God's creations and beauty....almost goose bumpy! .

Just little things like a racoon with 5 baby raccoons, teaching them to crawl on her back, so she could cross the main country road in to the woods on the other side, then only to let them down once crossed to follow her again like little ducklings.... HOW did she know to do that...? How wonderful that she did know! All kinds of beautiful things like that from all of the creatures in the woods!

And every day we watch live, what viral you tube videos show on nature in amazement and aw, and constantly say to one another....GOSH! We don't know shit from shinola, about all that goes on in them woods and God's creatures. And hubby just mentioned about how cruel humans are on slaughtering animals that we eat.....

So, in our ignorance we both questioned if we should only be eating Kosher meat....wasn't that God's way of killing his creatures humanely??? It never crossed our minds that maybe we should not be eating meat at all...we never heard of such a thing being Biblical....and until reading it in this thread, I never knew there was even a Biblical argument and debate on it....

Where does Kosher come in?