Tax the Rich? Tax the Millionaires!

[georgephillip]

MitchMan:

How do you respond to the radical's condemnation of capitalism as inherently insane in that it posits limitless growth on a planet of finite resources?

Do you believe the criminal behavior of some capitalist firms is a bad apple problem or a rotten barrel problem?

Finally, your vision of an equitable market based capitalist economy seems entirely incompatible with Wall Street's current influence over Republicans AND Democrats.

How bad would this economy have to become before you would consider FLUSHING all Republicans AND Democrats from DC?

 

[georgephillip]

Only pitiful Losers sit around obsessing over how much $$ others make. Winners don't think that way. It's not anyone's business how much $$ individual Citizens make. If you're a miserable Loser,just stop being bitter & miserable and do something about it. You're a Loser because of your own choices & mentality. So stop blaming everyone else. And you are not entitled to other Citizens' Income because you're a Loser. That would just be stealing. So just get off your couch and make something of yourself. It doesn't matter how much $$ other Citizens make. That flawed mentality has gotten you where you are today...Loserville. Now stop being a bitter Loser and become a Winner. Good luck & God Bless.

Have you noticed any stealing on Wall Street lately?

How about the Pentagon?
Why do you suppose they resist any meaningful audit?

Governments have picked winners and losers for thousands of years by socializing cost and privatizing profits.

Are you obsessing over the outcome when both sides discover there's a class war in progress?

 

[MitchMan]

How do you respond to the radical's condemnation of capitalism as inherently insane in that it posits limitless growth on a planet of finite resources?

There is theoretical truth in that statement that unfettered, pure, unregulated capitalism would lead to a hastened demise to the environment, but with the appropriate regulation (which includes holistic considerations such as the environment), disaster could be/would be avoided. As I have said many times before, I am for an adequately and sufficiently regulated form of market capitalism, not anything less. We already have business/economic regulations that safeguard the environment – though not nearly enough. It is not an impossible task at all. Our only problem is that we liberals are not doing nearly enough to persuade the public to support more environmental policy/legislation and enforcement; the mindless wrong-headed right wing is much better and more effective at public messaging, unfortunately. That could be a temporary condition if we liberals would simply get off our collective asses and vote and publicly message much more rigorously for our candidates and our policies.

Do you believe the criminal behavior of some capitalist firms is a bad apple problem or a rotten barrel problem?

This question is a little self-contradictory: if it is a ‘rotten barrel’ problem, then the criminal behavior by definition would not/could not be limited to ‘some capitalist firms’ but would have to be reflective of most capitalist firms, right? Any way, on the whole I tend to think of it as a rotten barrel more than bad apple situation. A society needs law enforcement and laws/rules and, hence, regulations. Much of our problem currently is lack of enforcement of our current laws. Prime example = recent decades lack of enforcement of our anti trust laws. So, we can have capitalist firms, lots of them, but they need to be monitored and regulated appropriately. It can be done.

Finally, your vision of an equitable market based capitalist economy seems entirely incompatible with Wall Street's current influence over Republicans AND Democrats. How bad would this economy have to become before you would consider FLUSHING all Republicans AND Democrats from DC?

Great question, glad you asked. I am getting frustrated just like you. I absolutely agree with you in that my vision and Wall Street's current influence over Dems and Pubes is way too much and in direct contradiction to my vision. You are absolutely correct.

Most all the Republicans are just plain bad for humanity, especially the prominent ones. The majority of the elected Democrats are good and correctly minded, butt, and this is a big ass butt, the Democrats as a whole are not fighting nearly hard enough, they are not messaging/defending/supporting/fighting rigorously enough for the policies that we liberals elected them to pursue. They are doing a piss poor job, especially Obama, when it comes to political combat and standing their ground. Piss poor! So, I am not too far behind you in wanting regime change. Unfortunately, not going to happen in the short term, won’t ever happen if liberals don’t get off their asses. I would love to come up with a candidate that had the intellect and deliberative intelligence of Obama, but with the vigor and fighting spirit of a Senator Weiner. Obama has exhibited fear right when we liberals needed him to exhibit strong leadership and has lost his “creds” as a leader for liberals in my mind. What we desperately need is another FDR!

You are a good warrior, GeorgePhillip.

 

[georgephillip]

It is almost impossible for me to believe Democrats can be so consistently inept without trying.

Drew Westen in his book The Political Brain mentions how easily the Kerry campaign in 2004 could have pulled out "the classic television footage of a smiling Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney shaking hands in the 1980s with an equally charming Saddam Hussein..."

Imagine the following narration:

"Why was Vice President Dick Cheney so sure Saddam had weapons of mass destruction?"

"Because he sold them to him."

One of Westen's over-arching themes is that Democrats are stuck in the marketplace of ideas while Republicans rule the marketplace of emotions, and whenever there's a political conflict between ideas and emotions, emotion always wins.

The Political Brain, Drew Westen copyright 2007 p.36.

 

[Seawytch]

No offense man,but you do sound like one of those bitter Losers. Why obsess over how much $$ other Citizens make?

Its simple:
If you can't keep up with the Jonses, bring the Jonses down to you.

Yea these people really do believe they have the right to steal from fellow American Citizens just because they're Losers. They really do believe in that stuff. Only a miserable & bitter Loser sits around obsessing over how much $$ other Citizens make. I stand by that statement.

Gosh, you mean like all these people going after public sector union worker's benefits because the corporations they work for cut theirs? Like them?

 

[MitchMan]

As far as what to do at this point, the liberals should go on the war path. There are alot more of us out there than one would think, they just have to get out there and vote. Being correct is not nearly enough in our society. You have to win the public messaging war.

That takes two efforts: 1)fight politically 2)propagandize effectively in order to win the hearts and minds of the majority. What many people believe on both sides of the public spectrum is that getting legislation and only legislation passed is all that has to be done. That would be wrong. You actually need to persuade the majority of people as well because legislation alone will not stand for any length of time, compliance with the legislation will be more rare, and enforcement will be too difficult and costly to successfully implement.

Bottom line, in my view, who ever prevails in the public messaging battle, wins the ideological war, and therefore, the country.

I have a 45-45-10 theory: 45% of the electorate are liberal and smart and loyally vote Democrat, 45% are right wing and dumb and loyally vote Republican, then there are the middle 10% that are dumb but are not loyal to either party, and they will vote for the party that is most persuasive. The bottom line is that 55% of the people are dumb and the political battle is over the successful persuasion of the middle 10%, that wins elections.

However, in my view, the dumb 45% need to be persuaded also. Winning political battles and then losing the next election doesn't get it in the long run. You need to win more elections than you lose, therefore persuading those dumb ass republicans is necessary also. It really isn't that difficult as they can be persuaded with catchy slogans, simplistic explanations, bravado, and low brow humor with a "just plain folk" approach. The secret is repetition, they need to hear and see the messaging often.

We liberals can't really win the hearts and minds of the right wing with complicated logic and correctness, even if you spell it out for them. They like the slogans better. Hell, you can see that even in this thread. Notice the original , thoughtful, carefully written supported arguments we liberals have posited time and time again, only to have our questions ignored and then receive a one line cliche for a response that totally reflects their lack of understanding what was written. This morning I was reading some other threads and found the same thing going on there. Beautifully well written original points of views by liberals only to be responded to by a hayseed's one line cliched response. Nothing new or original ever coming from them.

 

[kaz]

Only pitiful Losers sit around obsessing over how much $$ others make. Winners don't think that way. It's not anyone's business how much $$ individual Citizens make. If you're a miserable Loser,just stop being bitter & miserable and do something about it. You're a Loser because of your own choices & mentality. So stop blaming everyone else. And you are not entitled to other Citizens' Income because you're a Loser. That would just be stealing. So just get off your couch and make something of yourself. It doesn't matter how much $$ other Citizens make. That flawed mentality has gotten you where you are today...Loserville. Now stop being a bitter Loser and become a Winner. Good luck & God Bless.

Have you noticed any stealing on Wall Street lately?

How about the Pentagon?
Why do you suppose they resist any meaningful audit?

Governments have picked winners and losers for thousands of years by socializing cost and privatizing profits.

Are you obsessing over the outcome when both sides discover there's a class war in progress?

Have you noticed any stealing in government lately?

 

[LibocalypseNow]

Only pitiful Losers sit around obsessing over how much $$ others make. Winners don't think that way. It's not anyone's business how much $$ individual Citizens make. If you're a miserable Loser,just stop being bitter & miserable and do something about it. You're a Loser because of your own choices & mentality. So stop blaming everyone else. And you are not entitled to other Citizens' Income because you're a Loser. That would just be stealing. So just get off your couch and make something of yourself. It doesn't matter how much $$ other Citizens make. That flawed mentality has gotten you where you are today...Loserville. Now stop being a bitter Loser and become a Winner. Good luck & God Bless.

Have you noticed any stealing on Wall Street lately?

How about the Pentagon?
Why do you suppose they resist any meaningful audit?

Governments have picked winners and losers for thousands of years by socializing cost and privatizing profits.

Are you obsessing over the outcome when both sides discover there's a class war in progress?

Oh cry me a river. Just more bitter Loser whining. You're a Loser because of your own choices and warped mentality. It's none of your business how much $$ other Citizens make. You being a Loser is no justification for stealing money from fellow Citizens. They don't owe you anything. They pay for your Welfare,and that's more than enough. You have no right to demand anything more. Just get out there and make some $$ yourself. Quit being a whiny Loser and try becoming a Winner. Give it a shot. Good luck.

 

[The T]

Only pitiful Losers sit around obsessing over how much $$ others make. Winners don't think that way. It's not anyone's business how much $$ individual Citizens make. If you're a miserable Loser,just stop being bitter & miserable and do something about it. You're a Loser because of your own choices & mentality. So stop blaming everyone else. And you are not entitled to other Citizens' Income because you're a Loser. That would just be stealing. So just get off your couch and make something of yourself. It doesn't matter how much $$ other Citizens make. That flawed mentality has gotten you where you are today...Loserville. Now stop being a bitter Loser and become a Winner. Good luck & God Bless.

Have you noticed any stealing on Wall Street lately?

How about the Pentagon?
Why do you suppose they resist any meaningful audit?

Governments have picked winners and losers for thousands of years by socializing cost and privatizing profits.

Are you obsessing over the outcome when both sides discover there's a class war in progress?

Oh cry me a river. Just more bitter Loser whining. You're a Loser because of your own choices and warped mentality. It's none of your business how much $$ other Citizens make. You being a Loser is no justification for stealing money from fellow Citizens. They don't owe you anything. They pay for your Welfare,and that's more than enough. You have no right to demand anything more. Just get out there and make some $$ yourself. Quit being a whiny Loser and try becoming a Winner. Give it a shot. Good luck.

VIA NEAL BOORTZ...

TAX THE MILLIONAIRES?

Yeah...during the talks about cutting the budget in the House of Representitives? Democrats are already talking about raising taxes on millionaires...Gubmint cuts? What are those?

[SNIP]

The Republicans are trying to cut spending .. just a little! They’re not even talking about cutting spending down to 2008 levels when Obama took office .. we are talking about $30 billion in spending cuts in a budget of over $3 trillion. Let’s get real with this. There has been a 24% increase in non-defense discretionary spending since 2008, and that is excluding the Pelosi/Obama $850 billion economic stimulus plan from hell. But because the Democrats have come so far in their “compromising,” they now have their own demands: higher tax rates for millionaires, companies that move factories overseas and wealthy people who make charitable contributions. Democrat Senator Carl Levin says, “It’s fair that there’s a surtax on millionaires or that we not extend the upper brackets that the Bush administration got [for wealthy families].” Where would liberals and progs be without the word “fair?”

[/snip]

Fair...right...you have more...so PAY MORE...Not so fast...

[SNIP]

Facts? You want facts? Can we solve our economic woes by taxing these evil rich SOBs? Answer! No. We can’t. No way. Not gonna happen. Fact is, there just aren’t enough millionaires to solve our budget problems. Click on the link and you’ll run across the following excerpt:


Quote

If you want to tax millionaires to get rid of the deficit, you have to hit each of those 200,000 households with an average tax hike -- not an average tax bill, but tax increase -- of $6 million. And a lot of those Club 1 households don't have $6 million in income to start with, much less $6 million left after the taxes they're already paying​

[/SNIP]

 

[Truthseeker420]

Yep, punish success. Increase the size and scope of government with nary an idea in sight to get spending under control.

Love these recycled old, demonstrably failed policies.

punish? why should the rich get a free ride?

 

[M14 Shooter]

Yep, punish success. Increase the size and scope of government with nary an idea in sight to get spending under control.
Love these recycled old, demonstrably failed policies.

punish? why should the rich get a free ride?

Free ride?
They already pay a highter percentage of their income than anyone else, and already pay a greater percentage of total income tax revenue that anyone else.

The "rich" - however you want to define that - simply do not have anything resembling enough total income to balance the budget, even if you took every penny that they make.

 

[LibocalypseNow]

We should not punish successful Americans. It's just not what America is all about. These successful Americans are the ones who pay for endless Welfare benefits in this country. If anything,whiny Losers should be thanking these successful & "Rich" Americans. Who do they think pays for all their couch potato video game playing,TV watching lazy asses? Do they think there's some kind of Welfare Fairy out there who magically makes their Welfare Checks appear? Welfare isn't free for everyone. Someone has to pay for it. Most Losers conveniently ignore this reality. It is very sad but it is what it is.

 

[The T]

Yep, punish success. Increase the size and scope of government with nary an idea in sight to get spending under control.

Love these recycled old, demonstrably failed policies.

punish? why should the rich get a free ride?

You mean those that worked for it...laboured for it are riding free? SON? Your definition of 'free ride' I gotta see...seriously...Are there more out there as convoluted in what you term as thinking...as YOU?

 

[MitchMan]

Libo, you lazy ass brain dead hayseed, you meal fed cow, you mealy mouthed miscreant. There is not a chance in the world for a one-eyed myopic mutant hobbit ignorant blowhard radical right wing mutant like you to have even the slightest modicum of understanding of what America is all about. You flatter yourself without foundation. You are the illness and the deficit that this country protects with freedom of speech every time your diseased mind jettisons an excuse for a thought.

If you could just unlock that stench filled cavernous garbage pit that only you would call a mind from the rank selfish and self-centered rot that constitutes your collection of anti-social, anti-American, evil, destructive notions long enough to read objectively enough real information to understand even the simplest of concepts in classic logic, history, economics or finance, you might, by only the slightest of margins, be able to free yourself from the obvious and blatant prison of mediocrity and distorted unworthy circular philosophy that you wallow in so voluntarily.

Your posts are so filled with hatred for the majority of Americans, error, misstatements, dishonesty, inaccuracies, and poorly stated inept mostly incomplete concepts that you have no credibility, relevance, or significance among the sane and well informed. You always cowardly decline to support and explain yourself when challenged. If you were to ever find yourself among well adjusted, informed, articulate people, they would banish you to an asylum for the insane and the terminally ignorant.

Your corrupt intent is so heinous that you are among the worst inhabitants that could be found in this country. Your statements are always contradictory to classic economics that this country has been founded upon, and you don’t even know it because you don’t study. Additionally, what you have written is anti-social, anti-humanitarian, contrary to fact, always totally unsupported, and not in keeping with true egalitarian American thought and principle when it comes to the majority of good Americans in this country.

In short, you are not what this country is all about. You represent the immorality and base element of only the dregs of the right wing, certainly you are no real champion to conservatism. Believe me, your rank ineptness at expression and crude lack of intellectuality and consistent refusal to support your contentions with corroborating fact when challenged would be heartily rejected by true conservatives. You are an intellectual coward, truly unpatriotic and one lousy American. Clean yourself up, and do it now!

 

[MitchMan]

T, just wondering, do you have any notion of what general % of the top 3% of wealth holders in country inherited their wealth? And, for those in the top 3% who inherited their wealth, did they work for it? Just wondering. I mean, since you wrote:

You mean those that worked for it...laboured for it are riding free? SON? Your definition of 'free ride' I gotta see...seriously...?

With a statement of yours like that, I am going to presume that you are sufficiently versed on the issue to have voiced your comment in the way you did, otherwise, I am sure you wouldn't have responded like that. I mean, I could be wrong, that's why I am asking you.

Also, does YOUR definition of a 'free ride' apply to any in the ranks of the rich in pertinent part here, even the ones that inherited their wealth? Could you briefly yet sufficiently explain yourself, maybe if you could tell us just what proportion of the top 3% are getting a free ride if any, and just what portion of them worked for their wealth? Share your knowledge with us, T. Just wondering. I mean, you asked Truthseeker for his definition, we'd like to hear yours and how it applies quantitatively to the rich that you are talking about.

 

[georgephillip]

Only pitiful Losers sit around obsessing over how much $$ others make. Winners don't think that way. It's not anyone's business how much $$ individual Citizens make. If you're a miserable Loser,just stop being bitter & miserable and do something about it. You're a Loser because of your own choices & mentality. So stop blaming everyone else. And you are not entitled to other Citizens' Income because you're a Loser. That would just be stealing. So just get off your couch and make something of yourself. It doesn't matter how much $$ other Citizens make. That flawed mentality has gotten you where you are today...Loserville. Now stop being a bitter Loser and become a Winner. Good luck & God Bless.

Have you noticed any stealing on Wall Street lately?

How about the Pentagon?
Why do you suppose they resist any meaningful audit?

Governments have picked winners and losers for thousands of years by socializing cost and privatizing profits.

Are you obsessing over the outcome when both sides discover there's a class war in progress?

Have you noticed any stealing in government lately?

Much of the stealing seems to occur in the Pentagon.

Think it's time for an audit?

 

[georgephillip]

Only pitiful Losers sit around obsessing over how much $$ others make. Winners don't think that way. It's not anyone's business how much $$ individual Citizens make. If you're a miserable Loser,just stop being bitter & miserable and do something about it. You're a Loser because of your own choices & mentality. So stop blaming everyone else. And you are not entitled to other Citizens' Income because you're a Loser. That would just be stealing. So just get off your couch and make something of yourself. It doesn't matter how much $$ other Citizens make. That flawed mentality has gotten you where you are today...Loserville. Now stop being a bitter Loser and become a Winner. Good luck & God Bless.

Have you noticed any stealing on Wall Street lately?

How about the Pentagon?
Why do you suppose they resist any meaningful audit?

Governments have picked winners and losers for thousands of years by socializing cost and privatizing profits.

Are you obsessing over the outcome when both sides discover there's a class war in progress?

Oh cry me a river. Just more bitter Loser whining. You're a Loser because of your own choices and warped mentality. It's none of your business how much $$ other Citizens make. You being a Loser is no justification for stealing money from fellow Citizens. They don't owe you anything. They pay for your Welfare,and that's more than enough. You have no right to demand anything more. Just get out there and make some $$ yourself. Quit being a whiny Loser and try becoming a Winner. Give it a shot. Good luck.

You will need a lot more than luck to compensate for Republicans AND Democrats in government handing the richest 1% of the population an average of more than 1.2 million dollars per year of national income over the last three decades.

BTW, without the government-assisted redistribution of national income all households in the bottom 50% of income distribution would have enjoyed twice as much income every year over those three decades.

But I'm sure they are all whiners anyway.

The Rich Get Richer While Nurses, Teachers, and Firefighters Get Trounced | Common Dreams

 

[Truthseeker420]

Yep, punish success. Increase the size and scope of government with nary an idea in sight to get spending under control.

Love these recycled old, demonstrably failed policies.

punish? why should the rich get a free ride?

You mean those that worked for it...laboured for it are riding free? SON? Your definition of 'free ride' I gotta see...seriously...Are there more out there as convoluted in what you term as thinking...as YOU?

I'm mainly talking about Corporations and the very rich but they use the commons more than anyyone(i.g. Roads,police,fire,water,militarycourt,natural resources...). They should not get a free ride and should pay their fair share.

 

[Ava]

....as the foul stench of envy and covetousness wafts about the room....

That has to be the real reason because a prosperous economy benefits all citizens better than a broke one...:cuckoo:

Taxing the Rich
The trouble with progressive economics.

John Stossel writes:

Progressives want to raise taxes on individuals who make more than $200,000 a year because they say it's wrong for the rich to be "given" more money. Sunday's New York Times carries a cartoon showing Uncle Sam handing money to a fat cat. They just don't get it.

As I've said before, a tax cut is not a handout. It simply means government steals less. What progressives want to do is take money from some—by force—and spend it on others. It sounds less noble when plainly stated.

That's the moral side of the matter. There's a practical side, too. Taxes discourage wealth creation. That hurts everyone, the lower end of the income scale most of all. An economy that, through freedom, encourages the production of wealth raises the living standards of lower-income people as well as everyone else.

A free society is not a zero-sum game in which every gain is offset by someone's loss. As long as government keeps its thumb off the scales, the "makers" who get rich do so by making others better off. (When the government allocates capital or creates barriers to competition, all bets are off.)

Much more:

Taxing the Rich - Reason Magazine

 

[M14 Shooter]

punish? why should the rich get a free ride?

You mean those that worked for it...laboured for it are riding free? SON? Your definition of 'free ride' I gotta see...seriously...Are there more out there as convoluted in what you term as thinking...as YOU?

I'm mainly talking about Corporations and the very rich but they use the commons more than anyyone(i.g. Roads,police,fire,water,militarycourt,natural resources...). They should not get a free ride and should pay their fair share.

Free ride?
They already pay a highter percentage of their income than anyone else, and already pay a greater percentage of total income tax revenue that anyone else.

The "rich" - however you want to define that - simply do not have anything resembling enough total income to balance the budget, even if you took every penny that they make.