Should Palestine be recognized as a state?

[Toddsterpatriot]

I'm actually saying that Iran has the hearts and minds of the world over the Zionist regime and America.

That's hilarious!

 

[Shusha]

The UNGA said so, that's all.

Are you suggesting something to debate?

As a point of correction of facts, the UNGA didn't say anything. Individual States made statements about as useful as "thoughts and prayers and strongly worded letters".

As another correction of facts, the UNGA doesn't have the capacity to create, change, or remove borders; nor the capacity to interfere with the territorial integrity of a member State; nor the capacity to determine citizenship in States. These rights are under the control of individual member States.

The debate is whether or not "recognition" has an utilitarian value. I am arguing that it does not, as no State has come into being due to the act of "recognition" and Palestine still lacks any of the four requirements for Statehood under the Montevideo convention.

 

[Donald H]

The debate is whether or not "recognition" has an utilitarian value.

I am arguing that it does not, as no State has come into being due to the act of "recognition"

Well that's not right. That could be the debate.

and Palestine still lacks any of the four requirements for Statehood under the Montevideo convention.

I've already told you that laws don't matter. Do you think that Rome became an empire by asking the world court to decide in Caesar's favour.

 

[USAF 2023]

The Zionist regime will soon have no other choice but peace. The rest of the world has lost sympathy for them, while Trump is busy destroying America's image at the UINGA.

Define what “ peace” is. If they are an independent State any violence against Israel will bring on a powerful response The Israelis in the W Bank are not going to leave but even more importantly they are not leaving E Jerusalem. I believe Olmert gave them that offer but they turned it down WHY? Because he was demanding “
Right of Return “ which is not going to happen either

 

[Donald H]

Define what “ peace” is. If they are an independent State any violence against Israel will bring on a powerful response The Israelis in the W Bank are not going to leave but even more importantly they are not leaving E Jerusalem. I believe Olmert gave them that offer but they turned it down WHY? Because he was demanding “
Right of Return “ which is not going to happen either

I've read your opinion.

I think that peace is the zionist regime settling with what the UN gave them.

or

They will get nothing.

The balance of power in the ME doesn't favour them anymore...

 

[Shusha]

Well that's not right. That could be the debate.

Debate it then. How does "recognition" create borders? Define population (citizenship)? Government?

I've already told you that laws don't matter.

Then stop talking about UNGA and recognition, if it doesn't matter. Make instead the argument that if Israel can control territory - it belongs to them.

 

[Donald H]

Debate it then. How does "recognition" create borders? Define population (citizenship)? Government?

Recognition defines borders.

Then stop talking about UNGA and recognition, if it doesn't matter. Make instead the argument that if Israel can control territory - it belongs to them.

If the zionists can control territory then it belongs to them.

If the Zionists can't control their territory then it doesn't belong to them.

The latest is that their defenses are useless. Is that true?

 

[Shusha]

Recognition defines borders.

You are incorrect. States do not define the borders of other (uninvolved) States. Russia can not unilaterally change the borders of Ukraine. Nor can the US claim that the border with Canada moves to the 66th parallel. Nor can a coalition of countries in South America decide that Australia has a border down the middle that splits it in two. Nor can a coalition of African countries decide that there is no border between France and Italy. It doesn't work that way.

If the zionists can control territory then it belongs to them.

If the Zionists can't control their territory then it doesn't belong to them.

Then recognition is immaterial.

Your arguments are internally inconsistent.

 

[USAF 2023]

I've read your opinion.

I think that peace is the zionist regime settling with what the UN gave them.

or

They will get nothing.

The balance of power in the ME doesn't favour them anymore...

That will never happen. They will never leave E Jerusalem. There are a lot of reasons but just to name a few; their Holy Sites are there. The PLO already stated that Jews will NOT be allowed to pray at the Weston wall What would be stopping them from forbidding Jews to visit their Holy Sites? After all, that’s what Jordan did.

 

[Redfish]

Well that's not right. That could be the debate.

I've already told you that laws don't matter. Do you think that Rome became an empire by asking the world court to decide in Caesar's favour.

and if texas and other states decide to secede, no body of law could stop them. Do you fools think the declaration of independence was in compliance with British law?

 

[Donald H]

and if texas and other states decide to secede, no body of law could stop them. Do you fools think the declaration of independence was in compliance with British law?

Wrong. The UN grants permission

 

[Donald H]

You are incorrect. States do not define the borders of other (uninvolved) States. Russia can not unilaterally change the borders of Ukraine. Nor can the US claim that the border with Canada moves to the 66th parallel. Nor can a coalition of countries in South America decide that Australia has a border down the middle that splits it in two. Nor can a coalition of African countries decide that there is no border between France and Italy. It doesn't work that way.

Then recognition is immaterial.

Your arguments are internally inconsistent.

other states defined Germany's borders after the war.

 

[Shusha]

other states defined Germany's borders after the war.

Yes. With Germany's consent by treaty. Germany conducted belligerent acts of war and occupation. Germany signed an unconditional surrender. Germany accepted territorial control of the Allied forces. And eventually Germany accepted the borders by treaty.

Your argument was:

Recognition defines borders.

It does not. Treaties define borders. Neither the UN, nor individual member States, nor a coalition of member States can re-define the borders of another State. It. does. not. work. that. way.

Israel can cede territory to a new State of Palestine in a treaty (see Oslo Accords), but the declarations of recognition do not transfer territory from Israel's sovereignty to Palestine's sovereignty.



TREATY OF VERSAILLES

ARTICLE 33
Germany renounces in favour of Belgium all rights and title over the territory of Prussian Moresnet situated on the west of the road from Liege to Aix-la-Chapelle; the road will belong to Belgium where it bounds this territory.

ARTICLE 34
Germany renounces in favour of Belgium all rights and title over the territory comprising the whole of the Kreise of Eupen and of Malmedy. During the six months after the coming into force of this Treaty, registers will be opened by the Belgian authority at Eupen and Malmedy in which the inhabitants of the above territory will be entitled to record in writing a desire to see the whole or part of it remain under German sovereignty. The results of this public expression of opinion will be communicated by the Belgian Government to the League of Nations, and Belgium undertakes to accept the decision of the League.


TREATY OF WARSAW (1970)

Article I​

1. The People's Republic of Poland and the Federal Republic of Germany unanimously state, that the existing border line, the course of which was established in chapter IX of the resolutions of the Potsdam Conference of 2 August 1945 from the Baltic Sea immediately west of Świnoujście and thence along the Oder river to the confluence of the Lusatian Neisse river, and along the Lusatian Neisse to the border of Tchechoslovakia, constitutes the western state border of the People's Republic of Poland.

2. They confirm the inviolability of their existing borders, now and in future, and they mutually obligate themselves for unreserved respect of their territorial integrity.

3. They declare that they have no territorial claims to each other and they also will not lay such claims in future.

 

[Mr Natural]

Give them their damn state under the condition that if any of the religious psychos attack again, they and the entire Middle East will eliminated once and for all.

 

[Donald H]

Yes. With Germany's consent by treaty. Germany conducted belligerent acts of war and occupation. Germany signed an unconditional surrender. Germany accepted territorial control of the Allied forces. And eventually Germany accepted the borders by treaty.

Your argument was:



It does not. Treaties define borders. Neither the UN, nor individual member States, nor a coalition of member States can re-define the borders of another State. It. does. not. work. that. way.

Israel can cede territory to a new State of Palestine in a treaty (see Oslo Accords), but the declarations of recognition do not transfer territory from Israel's sovereignty to Palestine's sovereignty.



TREATY OF VERSAILLES

ARTICLE 33
Germany renounces in favour of Belgium all rights and title over the territory of Prussian Moresnet situated on the west of the road from Liege to Aix-la-Chapelle; the road will belong to Belgium where it bounds this territory.

ARTICLE 34
Germany renounces in favour of Belgium all rights and title over the territory comprising the whole of the Kreise of Eupen and of Malmedy. During the six months after the coming into force of this Treaty, registers will be opened by the Belgian authority at Eupen and Malmedy in which the inhabitants of the above territory will be entitled to record in writing a desire to see the whole or part of it remain under German sovereignty. The results of this public expression of opinion will be communicated by the Belgian Government to the League of Nations, and Belgium undertakes to accept the decision of the League.


TREATY OF WARSAW (1970)

Article I​

1. The People's Republic of Poland and the Federal Republic of Germany unanimously state, that the existing border line, the course of which was established in chapter IX of the resolutions of the Potsdam Conference of 2 August 1945 from the Baltic Sea immediately west of Świnoujście and thence along the Oder river to the confluence of the Lusatian Neisse river, and along the Lusatian Neisse to the border of Tchechoslovakia, constitutes the western state border of the People's Republic of Poland.

2. They confirm the inviolability of their existing borders, now and in future, and they mutually obligate themselves for unreserved respect of their territorial integrity.

3. They declare that they have no territorial claims to each other and they also will not lay such claims in future.

What are you trying to debate? Let's just say that sometimes treaties sometimes define borders.

There are some exceptions. Sometimes the UN defines a border by granting the right to secede. There's no other authority to grant it.

To California or Texas for instance!

and if texas and other states decide to secede, no body of law could stop them. Do you fools think the declaration of independence was in compliance with British law?

Do you see now how wrong that is?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

What are you trying to debate? Let's just say that sometimes treaties sometimes define borders.

There are some exceptions. Sometimes the UN defines a border by granting the right to secede. There's no other authority to grant it.

To California or Texas for instance!

Sometimes the UN defines a border by granting the right to secede.

When did they do that?
Link?

 

[Donald H]

Sometimes the UN defines a border by granting the right to secede.

When did they do that?
Link?

You don't understand and so you should just follow along with your finger Todd.

Or research the question and get back to us?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

You don't understand and so you should just follow along with your finger Todd.

Or research the question and get back to us?

Because you'll run away instead of posting proof.

 

[Donald H]

Because you'll run away instead of posting proof.

I'm not deliberately trying to hurt you Todd, but sometimes some Americans get terribly confused over facts that they should have taken the time to understand.

I'm going to attempt to teach you to answer your own questions and not go begging a foreigner to answer for you.

SO................

Who grants a state the right to secede?

Again, get back to us.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I'm not deliberately trying to hurt you Todd, but sometimes some Americans get terribly confused over facts that they should have taken the time to understand.

I'm going to attempt to teach you to answer your own questions and not go begging a foreigner to answer for you.

SO................

Who grants a state the right to secede?

Again, get back to us.

Your cowardice doesn't hurt me in the slightest.
Don't pull a hamstring running away.