Shootings in Britain

Oz and the Orchestra

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Man shot in gun free Britain...

A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.

Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.

Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.

Meanwhile in "Elyria".


It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.

Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?

From 2012....

In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.

"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."

Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.

For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.


There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University
The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.

There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
Ban guns and those lives would be saved.

Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.

Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.

Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!
My very first post was to question the insanity of gun deaths in the US.
Though I've stated the stats before on this thread, I'll do so again. You need to forget whether your gun crime has reduced, even if what you say is true which I very much doubt its irrelevant
and suspect if the figures are falling its because you are running out of people intent on killing each other cos they are succeeding.

Gun related deaths per 100,000 population.

USA 12.21
UK 0.23

France 2.83
Canada 2.00
Sweden 1.6
Italy 1.31
Germany 1.17
Australia 0.9
Japan 0.6
Spain 0.31

With a population of 333546000 in the USA. That works out at 40,000 gun deaths per annum.

Coronavirus deaths in comparison work out at 98,000,- true that is more than twice as many, but gun deaths happen every year. Considering the lengths gone to, to stop Corona, isn't it time a total ban on guns was taken to bring the USA in line with what we consider to be a civilized society.
 

Tommy Tainant

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Man shot in gun free Britain...

A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.

Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.

Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.

Meanwhile in "Elyria".


It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.

Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?

From 2012....

In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.

"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."

Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.

For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.


There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University
The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.

There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
Ban guns and those lives would be saved.

Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.

Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.

Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!
he is immune to logic. He has a grubby list of links that he trots out everytime and nobody can be arsed to read. Some of his stats date from the last century.
The way it goes is this.
Firstly we have some bollox regarding the actual figures.
Then he falls back on there only being a problem in certain areas, generally black and democrat.
Then its just the criminals
Then its safer than the UK.
And finally when the game has run its course he invokes Hitler and the nazi genocide.

He is a curiosity but dont waste any time trying to reason with him. He doesnt have that capacity.
 
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2aguy

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Man shot in gun free Britain...

A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.

Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.

Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.

Meanwhile in "Elyria".


It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.

Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?

From 2012....

In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.

"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."

Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.

For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.


There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University
The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.

There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
Ban guns and those lives would be saved.

Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.

Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.

Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.

The statistics prove guns save lives.....you are wrong.

The Centers for Disease Control research showed that Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rape, robbery and murder....

We had 10,265 gun murders in the U.S. in 2018...according to our FBI...

1.2 million.....is larger than 10,265.

Suicide with guns do not count, since those willing to commit suicide will use any means at hand to do it....which is why Japan, and China as well as several European countries have higher suicide rates than the U.S....

And how many actual lives are saved each year in the U.S. with legal guns in the hands of normal people?

Case Closed: Kleck Is Still Correct


that makes for at least 176,000 lives saved—less some attackers who lost their lives to defenders. This enormous benefit dwarfs, both in human and economic terms, the losses trumpeted by hoplophobes who only choose to see the risk side of the equation.





==============
Annual Defensive Gun Use Savings Dwarf Study's "Gun Violence" Costs - The Truth About Guns

I was going to go on and calculate the costs of incarceration ($50K/year) saved by people killing 1527 criminals annually, and then look at the lifetime cost to society of an average criminal (something in excess of $1 million). But all of that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the $1,000,000,000,000 ($1T) annual benefit of gun ownership.
--------

It’s one of the antis’ favorite tricks: cost benefit analysis omitting the benefit side of the equation. So what are the financial benefits of firearm ownership to society? Read on . . .

In my post Dennis Henigan on Chardon: Clockwork Edition, I did an analysis of how many lives were saved annually in Defensive Gun Uses (DGUs). I used extremely conservative numbers. Now I am going to use some less conservative ones.
--------------

How can we get a dollar figure from 1.88 million defensive gun uses per year? Never fear, faithful reader, we can count on the .gov to calculate everything.

According to the AZ state government, in February of 2008 a human life was worth $6.5 million. Going to the Inflation Calculator and punching in the numbers gives us a present value of $6.93 million.

So figuring that the average DGU saves one half of a person’s life—as “gun violence” predominantly affects younger demographics—that gives us $3.465 million per half life.


Putting this all together, we find that the monetary benefit of guns (by way of DGUs) is roughly $1.02 trillion per year. That’s trillion. With a ‘T’.

I was going to go on and calculate the costs of incarceration ($50K/year) saved by people killing 1527 criminals annually, and then look at the lifetime cost to society of an average criminal (something in excess of $1 million). But all of that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the $1,000,000,000,000 ($1T) annual benefit of gun ownership.

When compared to the (inflation adjusted from 2002) $127.5 billion ‘cost’ of gun violence calculated by by our Ludwig-Cook buddies, guns save a little more than eight times what they “cost.”

Which, I might add, is completely irrelevant since “the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural, fundamental, and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right — subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility.”

So even taking Motherboard’s own total and multiplying it by 100, the benefits to society of civilian gun ownership dwarf the associated costs.
Suicide with guns do not count, since those willing to commit suicide will use any means at hand to do it....which is why Japan, and China as well as several European countries have higher suicide rates than the U.S....

US suicide rates are amongst the highest in the world - driven by guns.



Russia is worse if that is any comfort.

Uh.....no....you don't know what you are talking about.......

Fact Check, Gun Control and Suicide

There is no relation between suicide rate and gun ownership rates around the world.

According to the 2016 World Health Statistics report, (2) suicide rates in the four countries cited as having restrictive gun control laws have suicide rates that are comparable to that in the U. S.: Australia, 11.6, Canada, 11.4, France, 15.8, UK, 7.0, and USA 13.7 suicides/100,000.

By comparison, Japan has among the highest suicide rates in the world, 23.1/100,000, but gun ownership is extremely rare, 0.6 guns/100 people.



Suicide is a mental health issue. If guns are not available other means are used.


Poisoning, in fact, is the most common method of suicide for U. S. females according to the Washington Post (34 % of suicides), and suffocation the second most common method for males (27%).


Secondly, gun ownership rates in France and Canada are not low, as is implied in the Post article. The rate of gun ownership in the U. S. is indeed high at 88.8 guns/100 residents, but gun ownership rates are also among the world’s highest in the other countries cited. Gun ownership rates in these countries are are as follows: Australia, 15, Canada, 30.8, France, 31.2, and UK 6.2 per 100 residents. (3,4) Gun ownership rates in Saudia Arabia are comparable to that in Canada and France, with 37.8 guns per 100 Saudi residents, yet the lowest suicide rate in the world is in Saudia Arabia (0.3 suicides per 100,000).
Third, recent statistics in the state of Florida show that nearly one third of the guns used in suicides are obtained illegally, putting these firearm deaths beyond control through gun laws.(5)


Fourth, the primary factors affecting suicide rates are personal stresses, cultural, economic, religious factors and demographics. According to the WHO statistics, the highest rates of suicide in the world are in the Republic of Korea, with 36.8 suicides per 100,000, but India, Japan, Russia, and Hungary all have rates above 20 per 100,000; roughly twice as high as the U.S. and the four countries that are the basis for the Post’s calculation that gun control would reduce U.S. suicide rates by 20 to 38 percent. Lebanon, Oman, and Iraq all have suicide rates below 1.1 per 100,000 people--less than 1/10 the suicide rate in the U. S., and Afghanistan, Algeria, Jamaica, Haiti, and Egypt have low suicide rates that are below 4 per 100,000 in contrast to 13.7 suicides/100,000 in the U. S.
 
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2aguy

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Man shot in gun free Britain...

A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.

Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.

Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.

Meanwhile in "Elyria".


It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.

Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?

From 2012....

In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.

"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."

Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.

For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.


There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University
The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.

There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
Ban guns and those lives would be saved.

Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.

Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.

Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!
My very first post was to question the insanity of gun deaths in the US.
Though I've stated the stats before on this thread, I'll do so again. You need to forget whether your gun crime has reduced, even if what you say is true which I very much doubt its irrelevant
and suspect if the figures are falling its because you are running out of people intent on killing each other cos they are succeeding.

Gun related deaths per 100,000 population.

USA 12.21
UK 0.23

France 2.83
Canada 2.00
Sweden 1.6
Italy 1.31
Germany 1.17
Australia 0.9
Japan 0.6
Spain 0.31

With a population of 333546000 in the USA. That works out at 40,000 gun deaths per annum.

Coronavirus deaths in comparison work out at 98,000,- true that is more than twice as many, but gun deaths happen every year. Considering the lengths gone to, to stop Corona, isn't it time a total ban on guns was taken to bring the USA in line with what we consider to be a civilized society.

And to get 40,000 which isn't even accurate, you have to mix suicide into the murder rate.....which is just a lie.

Again....we have 320 million people, 600 million guns in the country...

According to the FBI we had 10,265 gun murders...

According to the Centers for Disease Control Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder....

According to the Department of Justice research Americans use their legal guns 1.5 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder.....

And according to other research, as I posted in this thread.....176,000 lives are saved, on average, each year with our legal guns in the hands of armed citizens....

Can you tell which number is bigger?

176,000 vs 10,265?

You made up the accidental gun death number and pretended it was a real fact....so you have nothing to add to this discussion...
 
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2aguy

2aguy

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Man shot in gun free Britain...

A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.

Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.

Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.

Meanwhile in "Elyria".


It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.

Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?

From 2012....

In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.

"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."

Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.

For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.


There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University
The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.

There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
Ban guns and those lives would be saved.

Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.

Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.

Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.

The statistics prove guns save lives.....you are wrong.

The Centers for Disease Control research showed that Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rape, robbery and murder....

We had 10,265 gun murders in the U.S. in 2018...according to our FBI...

1.2 million.....is larger than 10,265.

Suicide with guns do not count, since those willing to commit suicide will use any means at hand to do it....which is why Japan, and China as well as several European countries have higher suicide rates than the U.S....

And how many actual lives are saved each year in the U.S. with legal guns in the hands of normal people?

Case Closed: Kleck Is Still Correct


that makes for at least 176,000 lives saved—less some attackers who lost their lives to defenders. This enormous benefit dwarfs, both in human and economic terms, the losses trumpeted by hoplophobes who only choose to see the risk side of the equation.





==============
Annual Defensive Gun Use Savings Dwarf Study's "Gun Violence" Costs - The Truth About Guns

I was going to go on and calculate the costs of incarceration ($50K/year) saved by people killing 1527 criminals annually, and then look at the lifetime cost to society of an average criminal (something in excess of $1 million). But all of that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the $1,000,000,000,000 ($1T) annual benefit of gun ownership.
--------

It’s one of the antis’ favorite tricks: cost benefit analysis omitting the benefit side of the equation. So what are the financial benefits of firearm ownership to society? Read on . . .

In my post Dennis Henigan on Chardon: Clockwork Edition, I did an analysis of how many lives were saved annually in Defensive Gun Uses (DGUs). I used extremely conservative numbers. Now I am going to use some less conservative ones.
--------------

How can we get a dollar figure from 1.88 million defensive gun uses per year? Never fear, faithful reader, we can count on the .gov to calculate everything.

According to the AZ state government, in February of 2008 a human life was worth $6.5 million. Going to the Inflation Calculator and punching in the numbers gives us a present value of $6.93 million.

So figuring that the average DGU saves one half of a person’s life—as “gun violence” predominantly affects younger demographics—that gives us $3.465 million per half life.


Putting this all together, we find that the monetary benefit of guns (by way of DGUs) is roughly $1.02 trillion per year. That’s trillion. With a ‘T’.

I was going to go on and calculate the costs of incarceration ($50K/year) saved by people killing 1527 criminals annually, and then look at the lifetime cost to society of an average criminal (something in excess of $1 million). But all of that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the $1,000,000,000,000 ($1T) annual benefit of gun ownership.

When compared to the (inflation adjusted from 2002) $127.5 billion ‘cost’ of gun violence calculated by by our Ludwig-Cook buddies, guns save a little more than eight times what they “cost.”

Which, I might add, is completely irrelevant since “the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural, fundamental, and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right — subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility.”

So even taking Motherboard’s own total and multiplying it by 100, the benefits to society of civilian gun ownership dwarf the associated costs.
Suicide with guns do not count, since those willing to commit suicide will use any means at hand to do it....which is why Japan, and China as well as several European countries have higher suicide rates than the U.S....

US suicide rates are amongst the highest in the world - driven by guns.



Russia is worse if that is any comfort.

Countries with higher suicide rates than the U.S.........


South Korea...extreme gun control...

How is it that Finland, Japan, Hungary, Belgium, all have higher suicide rates than the U.S....?

Care to explain that?

 

Oz and the Orchestra

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Man shot in gun free Britain...

A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.

Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.

Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.

Meanwhile in "Elyria".


It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.

Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?

From 2012....

In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.

"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."

Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.

For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.


There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University
The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.

There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
Ban guns and those lives would be saved.

Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.

Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.

Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!
My very first post was to question the insanity of gun deaths in the US.
Though I've stated the stats before on this thread, I'll do so again. You need to forget whether your gun crime has reduced, even if what you say is true which I very much doubt its irrelevant
and suspect if the figures are falling its because you are running out of people intent on killing each other cos they are succeeding.

Gun related deaths per 100,000 population.

USA 12.21
UK 0.23

France 2.83
Canada 2.00
Sweden 1.6
Italy 1.31
Germany 1.17
Australia 0.9
Japan 0.6
Spain 0.31

With a population of 333546000 in the USA. That works out at 40,000 gun deaths per annum.

Coronavirus deaths in comparison work out at 98,000,- true that is more than twice as many, but gun deaths happen every year. Considering the lengths gone to, to stop Corona, isn't it time a total ban on guns was taken to bring the USA in line with what we consider to be a civilized society.

And to get 40,000 which isn't even accurate, you have to mix suicide into the murder rate.....which is just a lie.

Again....we have 320 million people, 600 million guns in the country...

According to the FBI we had 10,265 gun murders...

According to the Centers for Disease Control Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder....

According to the Department of Justice research Americans use their legal guns 1.5 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder.....

And according to other research, as I posted in this thread.....176,000 lives are saved, on average, each year with our legal guns in the hands of armed citizens....

Can you tell which number is bigger?

176,000 vs 10,265?

You made up the accidental gun death number and pretended it was a real fact....so you have nothing to add to this discussion...
Jesus wept!
 
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2aguy

2aguy

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Man shot in gun free Britain...

A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.

Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.

Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.

Meanwhile in "Elyria".


It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.

Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?

From 2012....

In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.

"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."

Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.

For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.


There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University
The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.

There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
Ban guns and those lives would be saved.

Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.

Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.

Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!
My very first post was to question the insanity of gun deaths in the US.
Though I've stated the stats before on this thread, I'll do so again. You need to forget whether your gun crime has reduced, even if what you say is true which I very much doubt its irrelevant
and suspect if the figures are falling its because you are running out of people intent on killing each other cos they are succeeding.

Gun related deaths per 100,000 population.

USA 12.21
UK 0.23

France 2.83
Canada 2.00
Sweden 1.6
Italy 1.31
Germany 1.17
Australia 0.9
Japan 0.6
Spain 0.31

With a population of 333546000 in the USA. That works out at 40,000 gun deaths per annum.

Coronavirus deaths in comparison work out at 98,000,- true that is more than twice as many, but gun deaths happen every year. Considering the lengths gone to, to stop Corona, isn't it time a total ban on guns was taken to bring the USA in line with what we consider to be a civilized society.

Can you then explain this to us....?

How is it that as more Americans own and carry guns...our gun crime rate went down 75%...it didn't go up, it went down.

How is it that as more Americans own and carry guns.....our gun murder rate went down 49%....it didn't go up, it went down.

How do you explain that?

Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 18.6 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...


-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%


Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.



The anti-gun hypothesis and argument.....

More Guns = More Gun crime regardless of any other factors.

Actual Result:

In the U.S....as more Americans own and carry guns over the last 26 years, gun murder down 49%, gun crime down 75%, violent crime down 72%

The result: Exact opposite of theory of anti-gunners....


In Science when you have a theory, when that theory is tested....and the exact opposite result happens...that means your theory is wrong. That is science....not left wing wishful thinking.



Whatever the crime rate does......as more Americans owned more guns the crime rate did not go up....so again...



Britain...
More Guns = More Gun Crime

Britain had access to guns before they banned them.....they had low gun crime, low gun murder.

They banned guns, the gun murder rate spiked for 10 years then returned to the same level...

Your Theory again....

More guns = More Gun Crime

Guns Banned creates no change? That means banning guns for law abiding gun owners had no effect on gun crime.

When your theory states one thing, and you implement your theory, and nothing changes....in science, that means your theory is wrong...
-------


Maine tops ‘safest states’ rankings four years after removing major gun restriction

When Maine passed a “Constitutional Carry” law allowing Maine residents to carry a concealed firearm without any special permit in 2015, opponents of the law forecast a dangerous future for the state. They said the new law would hurt public safety and put Maine kids at risk.



One state representative who opposed the bill went so far as to say it would give Mainers a reason to be afraid every time they went out in public or to work.

Another state representative suggested the law would lead to violent criminals with recent arrests and convictions legally carrying handguns.


-----

Now four years later, Maine has been named the safest state in the nation according to US News and World Report’s public safety rankings, which measures the fifty states based on crime data.



Ranking as the top safest state for violent crime and fourth for property crime, Maine edges out another New England state, Vermont, for the top spot. Of note, Vermont also is a “Constitutional Carry” state. New Hampshire ranks third in the national rankings, giving New England all three of the top spots in the nation.

In 2018, Maine was edged out by Vermont in the same “safest states” ranking, but declared the best state overall in the broader “Crime and Corrections” category.

In 2017, using a different methodology, Maine was ranked second among the fifty states in the “Crime and Corrections” category and also second in the categories used to rank the “safest states.”

The U.S. News and World Report “Best States” rankings are built in partnership with McKinsey & Company, a firm that works closely with state leaders around the nation.

Maine has also ranked at the top of other state rankings. WalletHub.com recently ranked Maine second in “Personal and Residential Safety” among the fifty states, and third overall.

=============

Bolsonaro's Brazil, More Legal Guns, Homicide Rates Down Precipitously

In December, 2018, in an article published by the Wall Street Journal, this pronouncement was made. From the wsj.com:

Now, Brazil is set to embark on an experiment that will determine what happens when you loosen gun restrictions in a country battling an overpowering wave of gun crime.
Homicides in Brazil were at historic highs in 2017. They dropped a bit in 2018, as candidate Bolsonaro ran on reform of the gun laws to allow self defense, and reform of the law to get tough on crime. The homicide numbers dropped from 59,000 in 2017, to 51,000 in 2018. President Bolsonaro was elected in October of 2018.

After taking office on 1 January, 2019, President Bolsonaro issued his first decree reforming some of Brazil's extreme gun laws on 15 January, 2019. The drop in Brazil's homicide rate accelerated.
-------

Early in the Bolsonaro presidency, a Brazilian lawyer prediceted the homicide rate would drop. From ammoland.com:

César Mello, asked that I include information that early reports are showing a 25% drop in Brazil's homicide rate, in the first quarter of 2019. If this trend continues, 16,000 lives will have been saved in the first year of President Bolsonaro's time in office.
The rate reduction was not quite that high. Only 10,000 lives were saved. From wtop.com:
Brazil had 41,635 killings in 2019, down 19% from the prior year and the least number of homicides since 2007, when the so-called Violence Monitor index was launched. It is a partnership between the non-profit Brazilian Forum of Public Security, the University of Sao Paulo’s Center for the Study of Violence, and news website G1, which published the data Friday.
When translated to homicide rates, the rate dropped 17% in 2018, then 23% more in 2019. The population of Brazil in 2019 was 210 million. The rate of homicides per 100,000 was 19.83. That is less than 2/3 of the homicide rate in 2017, which was 30.8.
 

hadit

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So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?

A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.

Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.

Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.


It's because we have guns. Rather than write a novel to explain which types of guns we have, here's a 5 minute video to explain all, you might be surprised!!

BRAVO! Thanks for that. saved me a long essay on the subject :clap:
"Captain Kirk" wannabe here tries to fearmonger to pursue a pro-gun agenda; facts are irrelevant to him, he just has a series of cut and pastes that he regurgitates time after time after time. It's very tedious.
And every time he does it, there is no substantive refutation. Normally, it's just a big "Nuh-uh", or "Well, if we did this or that, it wouldn't be so" complete with fingers stuck in ears and chants of "I can't hear you". Not literally, of course, but the result is the same. He can repost those over and over because no one bothers to refute them.
 
OP
2aguy

2aguy

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Man shot in gun free Britain...

A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.

Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.

Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.

Meanwhile in "Elyria".


It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.

Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?

From 2012....

In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.

"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."

Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.

For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.


There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University
The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.

There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
Ban guns and those lives would be saved.

Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.

Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.

Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!
My very first post was to question the insanity of gun deaths in the US.
Though I've stated the stats before on this thread, I'll do so again. You need to forget whether your gun crime has reduced, even if what you say is true which I very much doubt its irrelevant
and suspect if the figures are falling its because you are running out of people intent on killing each other cos they are succeeding.

Gun related deaths per 100,000 population.

USA 12.21
UK 0.23

France 2.83
Canada 2.00
Sweden 1.6
Italy 1.31
Germany 1.17
Australia 0.9
Japan 0.6
Spain 0.31

With a population of 333546000 in the USA. That works out at 40,000 gun deaths per annum.

Coronavirus deaths in comparison work out at 98,000,- true that is more than twice as many, but gun deaths happen every year. Considering the lengths gone to, to stop Corona, isn't it time a total ban on guns was taken to bring the USA in line with what we consider to be a civilized society.

And to get 40,000 which isn't even accurate, you have to mix suicide into the murder rate.....which is just a lie.

Again....we have 320 million people, 600 million guns in the country...

According to the FBI we had 10,265 gun murders...

According to the Centers for Disease Control Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder....

According to the Department of Justice research Americans use their legal guns 1.5 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder.....

And according to other research, as I posted in this thread.....176,000 lives are saved, on average, each year with our legal guns in the hands of armed citizens....

Can you tell which number is bigger?

176,000 vs 10,265?

You made up the accidental gun death number and pretended it was a real fact....so you have nothing to add to this discussion...
Jesus wept!

Yes....after you guys disarmed your peoples across Europe, you allowed the national socialists to murder 12 million men, women and children......then, when the United States had to come in and save you.......with guns.......you now sit under the umbrella of our protection, with our guns....and complain about the U.S.......

Bad manners on your part....
 
OP
2aguy

2aguy

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So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?

A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.

Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.

Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.


It's because we have guns. Rather than write a novel to explain which types of guns we have, here's a 5 minute video to explain all, you might be surprised!!

BRAVO! Thanks for that. saved me a long essay on the subject :clap:
"Captain Kirk" wannabe here tries to fearmonger to pursue a pro-gun agenda; facts are irrelevant to him, he just has a series of cut and pastes that he regurgitates time after time after time. It's very tedious.
And every time he does it, there is no substantive refutation. Normally, it's just a big "Nuh-uh", or "Well, if we did this or that, it wouldn't be so" complete with fingers stuck in ears and chants of "I can't hear you". Not literally, of course, but the result is the same. He can repost those over and over because no one bothers to refute them.

Thank you.
 

hadit

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The problem you guys have is you seem to think that your gun crime rates are always going to be static
Who says we do? Gun crime rates fluctuate over time, but overall, gun crime in the UK has been declining for decades as trends go. Drug gangs use guns against each other, not their potential "customers"; either to deter or eliminate their rivals. A cynic might argue, let them get on with it, they might kill each other off and solve the problem that way.
A large portion of American gun crime is gang related as well, and most of it is concentrated in large urban areas. There is no need, for example, to prevent people living in the country from owning guns, yet that is what the gun controllers want to do.
 
OP
2aguy

2aguy

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Man shot in gun free Britain...

A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.

Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.

Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.

Meanwhile in "Elyria".


It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.

Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?

From 2012....

In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.

"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."

Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.

For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.


There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University
The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.

There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
Ban guns and those lives would be saved.

Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.

Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.

Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!
he is immune to logic. He has a grubby list of links that he trots out everytime and nobody can be arsed to read. Some of his stats date from the last century.
The way it goes is this.
Firstly we have some bollox regarding the actual figures.
Then he falls back on there only being a problem in certain areas, generally black and democrat.
Then its just the criminals
Then its safer than the UK.
And finally when the game has run its course he invokes Hitler and the nazi genocide.

He is a curiosity but dont waste any time trying to reason with him. He doesnt have that capacity.
dont waste any time trying to reason with him.

When you actually try to use reason in our discussions it will be a great day......you simply deny, and emote, and think that makes your points....it doesn't....


You still refuse to answer the most basic question.....

Why did the gun murder rate in the U.S. drop 49%, and the gun crime rate drop 75%, and the violent crime rate drop 72% after more Americans went out, bought and now carry guns?

This is over a 27 year period as the population grew and the number of guns grew........you never answer this question because you can't answer it.....you claim more guns = more gun crime, and this actual real world experience shows you are wrong....
 

Oz and the Orchestra

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Man shot in gun free Britain...

A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.

Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.

Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.

Meanwhile in "Elyria".


It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.

Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?

From 2012....

In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.

"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."

Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.

For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.


There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University
The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.

There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
Ban guns and those lives would be saved.

Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.

Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.

Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!
he is immune to logic. He has a grubby list of links that he trots out everytime and nobody can be arsed to read. Some of his stats date from the last century.
The way it goes is this.
Firstly we have some bollox regarding the actual figures.
Then he falls back on there only being a problem in certain areas, generally black and democrat.
Then its just the criminals
Then its safer than the UK.
And finally when the game has run its course he invokes Hitler and the nazi genocide.

He is a curiosity but dont waste any time trying to reason with him. He doesnt have that capacity.
dont waste any time trying to reason with him.

When you actually try to use reason in our discussions it will be a great day......you simply deny, and emote, and think that makes your points....it doesn't....


You still refuse to answer the most basic question.....

Why did the gun murder rate in the U.S. drop 49%, and the gun crime rate drop 75%, and the violent crime rate drop 72% after more Americans went out, bought and now carry guns?

This is over a 27 year period as the population grew and the number of guns grew........you never answer this question because you can't answer it.....you claim more guns = more gun crime, and this actual real world experience shows you are wrong....
I already answered that it is because they are running out of people who have chosen to kill each other successfully!
 
OP
2aguy

2aguy

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Man shot in gun free Britain...

A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.

Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.

Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.

Meanwhile in "Elyria".


It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.

Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?

From 2012....

In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.

"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."

Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.

For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.


There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University
The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.

There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
Ban guns and those lives would be saved.

Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.

Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.

Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!
he is immune to logic. He has a grubby list of links that he trots out everytime and nobody can be arsed to read. Some of his stats date from the last century.
The way it goes is this.
Firstly we have some bollox regarding the actual figures.
Then he falls back on there only being a problem in certain areas, generally black and democrat.
Then its just the criminals
Then its safer than the UK.
And finally when the game has run its course he invokes Hitler and the nazi genocide.

He is a curiosity but dont waste any time trying to reason with him. He doesnt have that capacity.
dont waste any time trying to reason with him.

When you actually try to use reason in our discussions it will be a great day......you simply deny, and emote, and think that makes your points....it doesn't....


You still refuse to answer the most basic question.....

Why did the gun murder rate in the U.S. drop 49%, and the gun crime rate drop 75%, and the violent crime rate drop 72% after more Americans went out, bought and now carry guns?

This is over a 27 year period as the population grew and the number of guns grew........you never answer this question because you can't answer it.....you claim more guns = more gun crime, and this actual real world experience shows you are wrong....
I already answered that it is because they are running out of people who have chosen to kill each other successfully!

Wow...if that is all you have, this is going to be boring.
 

Vagabond63

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Man shot in gun free Britain...

A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.

Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.

Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.

Meanwhile in "Elyria".


It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.

Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?

From 2012....

In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.

"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."

Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.

For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.


There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University
The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.

There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
Ban guns and those lives would be saved.

Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.

Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.

Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!
My very first post was to question the insanity of gun deaths in the US.
Though I've stated the stats before on this thread, I'll do so again. You need to forget whether your gun crime has reduced, even if what you say is true which I very much doubt its irrelevant
and suspect if the figures are falling its because you are running out of people intent on killing each other cos they are succeeding.

Gun related deaths per 100,000 population.

USA 12.21
UK 0.23

France 2.83
Canada 2.00
Sweden 1.6
Italy 1.31
Germany 1.17
Australia 0.9
Japan 0.6
Spain 0.31

With a population of 333546000 in the USA. That works out at 40,000 gun deaths per annum.

Coronavirus deaths in comparison work out at 98,000,- true that is more than twice as many, but gun deaths happen every year. Considering the lengths gone to, to stop Corona, isn't it time a total ban on guns was taken to bring the USA in line with what we consider to be a civilized society.

And to get 40,000 which isn't even accurate, you have to mix suicide into the murder rate.....which is just a lie.

Again....we have 320 million people, 600 million guns in the country...

According to the FBI we had 10,265 gun murders...

According to the Centers for Disease Control Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder....

According to the Department of Justice research Americans use their legal guns 1.5 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder.....

And according to other research, as I posted in this thread.....176,000 lives are saved, on average, each year with our legal guns in the hands of armed citizens....

Can you tell which number is bigger?

176,000 vs 10,265?

You made up the accidental gun death number and pretended it was a real fact....so you have nothing to add to this discussion...
If your "research" was anything other than pure guesswork and data manipulation, if not outright fantasy then people might bother to pay attention. The CDC for example, never made any such CLAIMS, they tried a test survey in a few states using tiny samples asking questions over the phone. The data acquired was considered insufficient to make any sort of analysis so the filed it away until your John Lott turned up demanding the data under freedom of information. He then made wild claims about DGUs which were laughed out of court by his peers so he then settled on this fantasy 1.2 million. Nobody knows how many DGUs happen in the US, that's a fact. Anyone who says otherwise is lying.
 
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2aguy

2aguy

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Man shot in gun free Britain...

A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.

Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.

Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.

Meanwhile in "Elyria".


It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.

Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?

From 2012....

In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.

"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."

Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.

For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.


There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University
The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.

There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
Ban guns and those lives would be saved.

Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.

Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.

Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!
My very first post was to question the insanity of gun deaths in the US.
Though I've stated the stats before on this thread, I'll do so again. You need to forget whether your gun crime has reduced, even if what you say is true which I very much doubt its irrelevant
and suspect if the figures are falling its because you are running out of people intent on killing each other cos they are succeeding.

Gun related deaths per 100,000 population.

USA 12.21
UK 0.23

France 2.83
Canada 2.00
Sweden 1.6
Italy 1.31
Germany 1.17
Australia 0.9
Japan 0.6
Spain 0.31

With a population of 333546000 in the USA. That works out at 40,000 gun deaths per annum.

Coronavirus deaths in comparison work out at 98,000,- true that is more than twice as many, but gun deaths happen every year. Considering the lengths gone to, to stop Corona, isn't it time a total ban on guns was taken to bring the USA in line with what we consider to be a civilized society.

And to get 40,000 which isn't even accurate, you have to mix suicide into the murder rate.....which is just a lie.

Again....we have 320 million people, 600 million guns in the country...

According to the FBI we had 10,265 gun murders...

According to the Centers for Disease Control Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder....

According to the Department of Justice research Americans use their legal guns 1.5 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder.....

And according to other research, as I posted in this thread.....176,000 lives are saved, on average, each year with our legal guns in the hands of armed citizens....

Can you tell which number is bigger?

176,000 vs 10,265?

You made up the accidental gun death number and pretended it was a real fact....so you have nothing to add to this discussion...
If your "research" was anything other than pure guesswork and data manipulation, if not outright fantasy then people might bother to pay attention. The CDC for example, never made any such CLAIMS, they tried a test survey in a few states using tiny samples asking questions over the phone. The data acquired was considered insufficient to make any sort of analysis so the filed it away until your John Lott turned up demanding the data under freedom of information. He then made wild claims about DGUs which were laughed out of court by his peers so he then settled on this fantasy 1.2 million. Nobody knows how many DGUs happen in the US, that's a fact. Anyone who says otherwise is lying.
The CDC research mirrored the research at the Department of Justice during the same time period....then you would have to explain away the other 15 studies conducted by both private and government researchers into gun self defense that also found high rates of gun self defense...you can't dismiss all of that data....

It wasn't John Lott, you doofus, it was Gary Kleck who found the data that the CDC was hiding because it didn't conform to the clinton administrations need to ban guns.....

Then, in 2013, obama ordered the Centers For Disease Control to review all research on self defense with a gun.....all of it, and they spent 10 million dollars to do it...they came away with between 500,000- 3 milliion defensive gun uses each year.....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million averaged over those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million


--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..
 
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2aguy

2aguy

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Man shot in gun free Britain...

A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.

Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.

Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.

Meanwhile in "Elyria".


It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.

Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?

From 2012....

In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.

"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."

Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.

For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.


There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University
The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.

There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
Ban guns and those lives would be saved.

Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.

Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.

Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!
My very first post was to question the insanity of gun deaths in the US.
Though I've stated the stats before on this thread, I'll do so again. You need to forget whether your gun crime has reduced, even if what you say is true which I very much doubt its irrelevant
and suspect if the figures are falling its because you are running out of people intent on killing each other cos they are succeeding.

Gun related deaths per 100,000 population.

USA 12.21
UK 0.23

France 2.83
Canada 2.00
Sweden 1.6
Italy 1.31
Germany 1.17
Australia 0.9
Japan 0.6
Spain 0.31

With a population of 333546000 in the USA. That works out at 40,000 gun deaths per annum.

Coronavirus deaths in comparison work out at 98,000,- true that is more than twice as many, but gun deaths happen every year. Considering the lengths gone to, to stop Corona, isn't it time a total ban on guns was taken to bring the USA in line with what we consider to be a civilized society.

And to get 40,000 which isn't even accurate, you have to mix suicide into the murder rate.....which is just a lie.

Again....we have 320 million people, 600 million guns in the country...

According to the FBI we had 10,265 gun murders...

According to the Centers for Disease Control Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder....

According to the Department of Justice research Americans use their legal guns 1.5 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder.....

And according to other research, as I posted in this thread.....176,000 lives are saved, on average, each year with our legal guns in the hands of armed citizens....

Can you tell which number is bigger?

176,000 vs 10,265?

You made up the accidental gun death number and pretended it was a real fact....so you have nothing to add to this discussion...
If your "research" was anything other than pure guesswork and data manipulation, if not outright fantasy then people might bother to pay attention. The CDC for example, never made any such CLAIMS, they tried a test survey in a few states using tiny samples asking questions over the phone. The data acquired was considered insufficient to make any sort of analysis so the filed it away until your John Lott turned up demanding the data under freedom of information. He then made wild claims about DGUs which were laughed out of court by his peers so he then settled on this fantasy 1.2 million. Nobody knows how many DGUs happen in the US, that's a fact. Anyone who says otherwise is lying.

What Kleck found in his research when he discovered the CDC was hiding data...

What Do CDC's Surveys Say About the Frequency of Defensive Gun Uses? by Gary Kleck :: SSRN



Abstract
In 1996, 1997, and 1998, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) conducted large-scale surveys asking about defensive gun use (DGU) in four to seven states. Analysis of the raw data allows the estimation of the prevalence of DGU for those areas. Data pertaining to the same sets of states from the 1993 National Self-Defense Survey (Kleck and Gertz 1995) allow these results to be extrapolated to the U.S. as a whole. CDC’s survey data confirm previous high estimates of DGU prevalence, disconfirm estimates derived from the National Crime Victimization Survey, and indicate that defensive uses of guns by crime victims are far more common than offensive uses by criminals. CDC has never reported these results.
--------


The annual number of DGUs implied
by the 20 national
surveys
summarized in Table 4 ranges from 0.6 million to 6.1 million (omitting the extreme outlier of 9.6 million implied by the 2014 CNN survey), averaging 2.2 million.


Thus, the estimates we derived from the three CDC surveys of 0.6, 0.9, and 1.9 million (Table 3) all fall within the range of estimates generated by previous surveys.

The CDC surveys thereby confirm what nongovernmental surveys have indicated – defensive use of firearms by crime victims is common in the U. S.
----------
Conclusions

In sum, even when CDC, an organization perceived by some to be strongly “anti-gun,” devised and conducted the surveys, their survey results implied huge estimates of defensive gun uses – over a million per year, far more than the number of violent crimes in which offenders used guns. The CDC routinely reports results of the BRFSS regarding a wide variety of topics on their website, including results pertaining to subareas of the nation (CDC 2018b) and even results pertaining to individual states (CDC 2018c). The agency clearly regarded DGU as a topic that was sufficiently important to carefully craft DGU questions and make them available to states to use as optional parts of the very expensive BRFSS.

The CDC did not, however, report their DGU results.

CDC personnel have regarded results pertaining to only seven or fewer states as insufficiently important to report. Or maybe they decided not to report the DGU results because they believed there were problems with the research generating the results. If so, this was not by itself a sufficient justification for completely suppressing important results. A better practice would have been to report the findings, accompanied by appropriate caveats about limitations and possible problems with the research. This would have allowed readers to judge for themselves whether the limitations were so severe that the findings should be discounted, whereas failing to report the findings at all makes this impossible.

Another factor, however, could have played a role in the decision to not report the DGU findings. For CDC’s own 1990s surveys to generate high estimates of DGU prevalence was clearly not helpful to efforts to enact stricter controls over firearms, since it implies that some strict controls might disarm a significant number of people who otherwise would have been able to use a gun for self-protection.

If CDC personnel hold the pro-control or antigun sentiments that organizations like the NRA attribute to them, high estimates of defensive gun uses would be unwelcome news that they would not care to disseminate widely.

=========
 

Tommy Tainant

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Man shot in gun free Britain...

A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.

Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.

Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.

Meanwhile in "Elyria".


It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.

Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?

From 2012....

In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.

"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."

Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.

For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.


There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University
The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.

There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
Ban guns and those lives would be saved.

Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.

Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.

Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!
My very first post was to question the insanity of gun deaths in the US.
Though I've stated the stats before on this thread, I'll do so again. You need to forget whether your gun crime has reduced, even if what you say is true which I very much doubt its irrelevant
and suspect if the figures are falling its because you are running out of people intent on killing each other cos they are succeeding.

Gun related deaths per 100,000 population.

USA 12.21
UK 0.23

France 2.83
Canada 2.00
Sweden 1.6
Italy 1.31
Germany 1.17
Australia 0.9
Japan 0.6
Spain 0.31

With a population of 333546000 in the USA. That works out at 40,000 gun deaths per annum.

Coronavirus deaths in comparison work out at 98,000,- true that is more than twice as many, but gun deaths happen every year. Considering the lengths gone to, to stop Corona, isn't it time a total ban on guns was taken to bring the USA in line with what we consider to be a civilized society.

And to get 40,000 which isn't even accurate, you have to mix suicide into the murder rate.....which is just a lie.

Again....we have 320 million people, 600 million guns in the country...

According to the FBI we had 10,265 gun murders...

According to the Centers for Disease Control Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder....

According to the Department of Justice research Americans use their legal guns 1.5 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder.....

And according to other research, as I posted in this thread.....176,000 lives are saved, on average, each year with our legal guns in the hands of armed citizens....

Can you tell which number is bigger?

176,000 vs 10,265?

You made up the accidental gun death number and pretended it was a real fact....so you have nothing to add to this discussion...
If your "research" was anything other than pure guesswork and data manipulation, if not outright fantasy then people might bother to pay attention. The CDC for example, never made any such CLAIMS, they tried a test survey in a few states using tiny samples asking questions over the phone. The data acquired was considered insufficient to make any sort of analysis so the filed it away until your John Lott turned up demanding the data under freedom of information. He then made wild claims about DGUs which were laughed out of court by his peers so he then settled on this fantasy 1.2 million. Nobody knows how many DGUs happen in the US, that's a fact. Anyone who says otherwise is lying.
The CDC research mirrored the research at the Department of Justice during the same time period....then you would have to explain away the other 15 studies conducted by both private and government researchers into gun self defense that also found high rates of gun self defense...you can't dismiss all of that data....

It wasn't John Lott, you doofus, it was Gary Kleck who found the data that the CDC was hiding because it didn't conform to the clinton administrations need to ban guns.....

Then, in 2013, obama ordered the Centers For Disease Control to review all research on self defense with a gun.....all of it, and they spent 10 million dollars to do it...they came away with between 500,000- 3 milliion defensive gun uses each year.....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million averaged over those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million


--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..
And yet you struggle to find any evidence of these acts to back up "studies" that are 50 years old in some cases. Joker.
 

Vagabond63

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So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?

A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.

Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.

Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.


It's because we have guns. Rather than write a novel to explain which types of guns we have, here's a 5 minute video to explain all, you might be surprised!!

BRAVO! Thanks for that. saved me a long essay on the subject :clap:
"Captain Kirk" wannabe here tries to fearmonger to pursue a pro-gun agenda; facts are irrelevant to him, he just has a series of cut and pastes that he regurgitates time after time after time. It's very tedious.
And every time he does it, there is no substantive refutation. Normally, it's just a big "Nuh-uh", or "Well, if we did this or that, it wouldn't be so" complete with fingers stuck in ears and chants of "I can't hear you". Not literally, of course rse, but the result is the same. He can repost those over and over because no one bothers to refute them.
Except when they have been substantively refuted, he just cuts and pastes his standard drivel for the next few posts until the refutation is lost in the noise. Ive done this at least three times, and I suspect others have, time and again. He doesn't care that his points are worthless, to him it's all about pushing his NRA talking points. For most of us now, it's easier to ignore his drivel.
 

Vagabond63

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Oh, it was Kleck, not Lott. My bad. As I said I don't have access to my files at the moment, but the two are interchangeable. Both are NRA shills manipulating data based on "estimates" to pursue thair agendas. No facts, just best guesses.
 

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