Shootings in Britain

Oz and the Orchestra

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Man shot in gun free Britain...

A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.

Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.

Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.

Meanwhile in "Elyria".


It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.

Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?

From 2012....

In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.

"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."

Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.

For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.


There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University
The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.

There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
Ban guns and those lives would be saved.

Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.

Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.

Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!
My very first post was to question the insanity of gun deaths in the US.
Though I've stated the stats before on this thread, I'll do so again. You need to forget whether your gun crime has reduced, even if what you say is true which I very much doubt its irrelevant
and suspect if the figures are falling its because you are running out of people intent on killing each other cos they are succeeding.

Gun related deaths per 100,000 population.

USA 12.21
UK 0.23

France 2.83
Canada 2.00
Sweden 1.6
Italy 1.31
Germany 1.17
Australia 0.9
Japan 0.6
Spain 0.31

With a population of 333546000 in the USA. That works out at 40,000 gun deaths per annum.

Coronavirus deaths in comparison work out at 98,000,- true that is more than twice as many, but gun deaths happen every year. Considering the lengths gone to, to stop Corona, isn't it time a total ban on guns was taken to bring the USA in line with what we consider to be a civilized society.

And to get 40,000 which isn't even accurate, you have to mix suicide into the murder rate.....which is just a lie.

Again....we have 320 million people, 600 million guns in the country...

According to the FBI we had 10,265 gun murders...

According to the Centers for Disease Control Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder....

According to the Department of Justice research Americans use their legal guns 1.5 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder.....

And according to other research, as I posted in this thread.....176,000 lives are saved, on average, each year with our legal guns in the hands of armed citizens....

Can you tell which number is bigger?

176,000 vs 10,265?

You made up the accidental gun death number and pretended it was a real fact....so you have nothing to add to this discussion...
If your "research" was anything other than pure guesswork and data manipulation, if not outright fantasy then people might bother to pay attention. The CDC for example, never made any such CLAIMS, they tried a test survey in a few states using tiny samples asking questions over the phone. The data acquired was considered insufficient to make any sort of analysis so the filed it away until your John Lott turned up demanding the data under freedom of information. He then made wild claims about DGUs which were laughed out of court by his peers so he then settled on this fantasy 1.2 million. Nobody knows how many DGUs happen in the US, that's a fact. Anyone who says otherwise is lying.

What Kleck found in his research when he discovered the CDC was hiding data...

What Do CDC's Surveys Say About the Frequency of Defensive Gun Uses? by Gary Kleck :: SSRN



Abstract
In 1996, 1997, and 1998, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) conducted large-scale surveys asking about defensive gun use (DGU) in four to seven states. Analysis of the raw data allows the estimation of the prevalence of DGU for those areas. Data pertaining to the same sets of states from the 1993 National Self-Defense Survey (Kleck and Gertz 1995) allow these results to be extrapolated to the U.S. as a whole. CDC’s survey data confirm previous high estimates of DGU prevalence, disconfirm estimates derived from the National Crime Victimization Survey, and indicate that defensive uses of guns by crime victims are far more common than offensive uses by criminals. CDC has never reported these results.
--------


The annual number of DGUs implied
by the 20 national
surveys
summarized in Table 4 ranges from 0.6 million to 6.1 million (omitting the extreme outlier of 9.6 million implied by the 2014 CNN survey), averaging 2.2 million.


Thus, the estimates we derived from the three CDC surveys of 0.6, 0.9, and 1.9 million (Table 3) all fall within the range of estimates generated by previous surveys.

The CDC surveys thereby confirm what nongovernmental surveys have indicated – defensive use of firearms by crime victims is common in the U. S.
----------
Conclusions


In sum, even when CDC, an organization perceived by some to be strongly “anti-gun,” devised and conducted the surveys, their survey results implied huge estimates of defensive gun uses – over a million per year, far more than the number of violent crimes in which offenders used guns. The CDC routinely reports results of the BRFSS regarding a wide variety of topics on their website, including results pertaining to subareas of the nation (CDC 2018b) and even results pertaining to individual states (CDC 2018c). The agency clearly regarded DGU as a topic that was sufficiently important to carefully craft DGU questions and make them available to states to use as optional parts of the very expensive BRFSS.

The CDC did not, however, report their DGU results.

CDC personnel have regarded results pertaining to only seven or fewer states as insufficiently important to report. Or maybe they decided not to report the DGU results because they believed there were problems with the research generating the results. If so, this was not by itself a sufficient justification for completely suppressing important results. A better practice would have been to report the findings, accompanied by appropriate caveats about limitations and possible problems with the research. This would have allowed readers to judge for themselves whether the limitations were so severe that the findings should be discounted, whereas failing to report the findings at all makes this impossible.

Another factor, however, could have played a role in the decision to not report the DGU findings. For CDC’s own 1990s surveys to generate high estimates of DGU prevalence was clearly not helpful to efforts to enact stricter controls over firearms, since it implies that some strict controls might disarm a significant number of people who otherwise would have been able to use a gun for self-protection.

If CDC personnel hold the pro-control or antigun sentiments that organizations like the NRA attribute to them, high estimates of defensive gun uses would be unwelcome news that they would not care to disseminate widely.

=========
A few tips on how to debate if you don't mind!
Stop changing the colour of your type - why do you do that its really irritating?
Keep your arguments to the point.
Keep your arguments concise and factual.
Stop repeating yourself with metres of speculative unsubstantiated info.

Finally I think you should concentrate on the latest mass shooting in Washington state - 20 killed,
rather than on the few shootings we have in Britain per year.
 
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2aguy

2aguy

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So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?

A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.

Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.

Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.


It's because we have guns. Rather than write a novel to explain which types of guns we have, here's a 5 minute video to explain all, you might be surprised!!

BRAVO! Thanks for that. saved me a long essay on the subject :clap:
"Captain Kirk" wannabe here tries to fearmonger to pursue a pro-gun agenda; facts are irrelevant to him, he just has a series of cut and pastes that he regurgitates time after time after time. It's very tedious.
And every time he does it, there is no substantive refutation. Normally, it's just a big "Nuh-uh", or "Well, if we did this or that, it wouldn't be so" complete with fingers stuck in ears and chants of "I can't hear you". Not literally, of course rse, but the result is the same. He can repost those over and over because no one bothers to refute them.
Except when they have been substantively refuted, he just cuts and pastes his standard drivel for the next few posts until the refutation is lost in the noise. Ive done this at least three times, and I suspect others have, time and again. He doesn't care that his points are worthless, to him it's all about pushing his NRA talking points. For most of us now, it's easier to ignore his drivel.

Where in anything I post do you see "NRA?" You guys can't challenge anything I post with facts, so you start throwing out "NRA...NRA....."
 
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2aguy

2aguy

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Oh, it was Kleck, not Lott. My bad. As I said I don't have access to my files at the moment, but the two are interchangeable. Both are NRA shills manipulating data based on "estimates" to pursue thair agendas. No facts, just best guesses.

Neither of them has any connection to the NRA you moron........but since you are facing 20 studies on gun self defense, and 27 years of actual gun ownership facts in the United States...now its "NRA.....NRA....."
 
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2aguy

2aguy

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Man shot in gun free Britain...

A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.

Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.

Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.

Meanwhile in "Elyria".


It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.

Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?

From 2012....

In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.

"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."

Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.

For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.


There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University
The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.

There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
Ban guns and those lives would be saved.

Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.

Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.

Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!
My very first post was to question the insanity of gun deaths in the US.
Though I've stated the stats before on this thread, I'll do so again. You need to forget whether your gun crime has reduced, even if what you say is true which I very much doubt its irrelevant
and suspect if the figures are falling its because you are running out of people intent on killing each other cos they are succeeding.

Gun related deaths per 100,000 population.

USA 12.21
UK 0.23

France 2.83
Canada 2.00
Sweden 1.6
Italy 1.31
Germany 1.17
Australia 0.9
Japan 0.6
Spain 0.31

With a population of 333546000 in the USA. That works out at 40,000 gun deaths per annum.

Coronavirus deaths in comparison work out at 98,000,- true that is more than twice as many, but gun deaths happen every year. Considering the lengths gone to, to stop Corona, isn't it time a total ban on guns was taken to bring the USA in line with what we consider to be a civilized society.

And to get 40,000 which isn't even accurate, you have to mix suicide into the murder rate.....which is just a lie.

Again....we have 320 million people, 600 million guns in the country...

According to the FBI we had 10,265 gun murders...

According to the Centers for Disease Control Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder....

According to the Department of Justice research Americans use their legal guns 1.5 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder.....

And according to other research, as I posted in this thread.....176,000 lives are saved, on average, each year with our legal guns in the hands of armed citizens....

Can you tell which number is bigger?

176,000 vs 10,265?

You made up the accidental gun death number and pretended it was a real fact....so you have nothing to add to this discussion...
If your "research" was anything other than pure guesswork and data manipulation, if not outright fantasy then people might bother to pay attention. The CDC for example, never made any such CLAIMS, they tried a test survey in a few states using tiny samples asking questions over the phone. The data acquired was considered insufficient to make any sort of analysis so the filed it away until your John Lott turned up demanding the data under freedom of information. He then made wild claims about DGUs which were laughed out of court by his peers so he then settled on this fantasy 1.2 million. Nobody knows how many DGUs happen in the US, that's a fact. Anyone who says otherwise is lying.

What Kleck found in his research when he discovered the CDC was hiding data...

What Do CDC's Surveys Say About the Frequency of Defensive Gun Uses? by Gary Kleck :: SSRN



Abstract
In 1996, 1997, and 1998, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) conducted large-scale surveys asking about defensive gun use (DGU) in four to seven states. Analysis of the raw data allows the estimation of the prevalence of DGU for those areas. Data pertaining to the same sets of states from the 1993 National Self-Defense Survey (Kleck and Gertz 1995) allow these results to be extrapolated to the U.S. as a whole. CDC’s survey data confirm previous high estimates of DGU prevalence, disconfirm estimates derived from the National Crime Victimization Survey, and indicate that defensive uses of guns by crime victims are far more common than offensive uses by criminals. CDC has never reported these results.
--------


The annual number of DGUs implied
by the 20 national
surveys
summarized in Table 4 ranges from 0.6 million to 6.1 million (omitting the extreme outlier of 9.6 million implied by the 2014 CNN survey), averaging 2.2 million.


Thus, the estimates we derived from the three CDC surveys of 0.6, 0.9, and 1.9 million (Table 3) all fall within the range of estimates generated by previous surveys.

The CDC surveys thereby confirm what nongovernmental surveys have indicated – defensive use of firearms by crime victims is common in the U. S.
----------
Conclusions


In sum, even when CDC, an organization perceived by some to be strongly “anti-gun,” devised and conducted the surveys, their survey results implied huge estimates of defensive gun uses – over a million per year, far more than the number of violent crimes in which offenders used guns. The CDC routinely reports results of the BRFSS regarding a wide variety of topics on their website, including results pertaining to subareas of the nation (CDC 2018b) and even results pertaining to individual states (CDC 2018c). The agency clearly regarded DGU as a topic that was sufficiently important to carefully craft DGU questions and make them available to states to use as optional parts of the very expensive BRFSS.

The CDC did not, however, report their DGU results.

CDC personnel have regarded results pertaining to only seven or fewer states as insufficiently important to report. Or maybe they decided not to report the DGU results because they believed there were problems with the research generating the results. If so, this was not by itself a sufficient justification for completely suppressing important results. A better practice would have been to report the findings, accompanied by appropriate caveats about limitations and possible problems with the research. This would have allowed readers to judge for themselves whether the limitations were so severe that the findings should be discounted, whereas failing to report the findings at all makes this impossible.

Another factor, however, could have played a role in the decision to not report the DGU findings. For CDC’s own 1990s surveys to generate high estimates of DGU prevalence was clearly not helpful to efforts to enact stricter controls over firearms, since it implies that some strict controls might disarm a significant number of people who otherwise would have been able to use a gun for self-protection.

If CDC personnel hold the pro-control or antigun sentiments that organizations like the NRA attribute to them, high estimates of defensive gun uses would be unwelcome news that they would not care to disseminate widely.

=========
A few tips on how to debate if you don't mind!
Stop changing the colour of your type - why do you do that its really irritating?
Keep your arguments to the point.
Keep your arguments concise and factual.
Stop repeating yourself with metres of speculative unsubstantiated info.

Finally I think you should concentrate on the latest mass shooting in Washington state - 20 killed,
rather than on the few shootings we have in Britain per year.

A few tips for you...how about you actually challenge the facts I present.......and a link to 20 actual studies conducted by actual researchers both from private research groups and Federal government agencies are not unsubstantiated infor.......and Pew research group looking at actual crime statistics over the last 27 years is not unsubstantiated info.

And maybe if you weren't obsessed with "guns," and paid actual attention to what caused this crime, you would know what you are talking about.

It was a gang shooting at a party......and it was buried by the press here in the U.S. because the shooters were black gang members. The shooters will have been arrested over and over again for various serious felonies, most likely illegal gun possession, then they will have been released over and over again by democrat party prosecutors for even the most violent crimes......

That is why the shooting happened, not because John and Jane citizen own and carry guns for self defense....

And British gun control laws don't stop shootings like this, so you shouldn't act smug..........the only thing protecting you right now is your criminals don't choose to do this......as often....yet.....

Children among 10 people in hospital after mass shooting in Manchester

Ten people, including two children, were taken to hospital after a shooting at a street party in the Moss Side area of Manchester.

Armed police officers rushed to the scene on a residential street at 2.30am on Sunday, where a party was being held following a Caribbean Carnival at a nearby park.

Britain will understand this as time goes on.......your gangs are learning that British laws and British police are nothing to be feared........
 

Vagabond63

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Man shot in gun free Britain...

A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.

Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.

Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.

Meanwhile in "Elyria".


It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.

Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?

From 2012....

In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.

"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."

Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.

For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.


There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University
The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.

There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
Ban guns and those lives would be saved.

Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.

Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.

Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!
My very first post was to question the insanity of gun deaths in the US.
Though I've stated the stats before on this thread, I'll do so again. You need to forget whether your gun crime has reduced, even if what you say is true which I very much doubt its irrelevant
and suspect if the figures are falling its because you are running out of people intent on killing each other cos they are succeeding.

Gun related deaths per 100,000 population.

USA 12.21
UK 0.23

France 2.83
Canada 2.00
Sweden 1.6
Italy 1.31
Germany 1.17
Australia 0.9
Japan 0.6
Spain 0.31

With a population of 333546000 in the USA. That works out at 40,000 gun deaths per annum.

Coronavirus deaths in comparison work out at 98,000,- true that is more than twice as many, but gun deaths happen every year. Considering the lengths gone to, to stop Corona, isn't it time a total ban on guns was taken to bring the USA in line with what we consider to be a civilized society.

And to get 40,000 which isn't even accurate, you have to mix suicide into the murder rate.....which is just a lie.

Again....we have 320 million people, 600 million guns in the country...

According to the FBI we had 10,265 gun murders...

According to the Centers for Disease Control Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder....

According to the Department of Justice research Americans use their legal guns 1.5 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder.....

And according to other research, as I posted in this thread.....176,000 lives are saved, on average, each year with our legal guns in the hands of armed citizens....

Can you tell which number is bigger?

176,000 vs 10,265?

You made up the accidental gun death number and pretended it was a real fact....so you have nothing to add to this discussion...
If your "research" was anything other than pure guesswork and data manipulation, if not outright fantasy then people might bother to pay attention. The CDC for example, never made any such CLAIMS, they tried a test survey in a few states using tiny samples asking questions over the phone. The data acquired was considered insufficient to make any sort of analysis so the filed it away until your John Lott turned up demanding the data under freedom of information. He then made wild claims about DGUs which were laughed out of court by his peers so he then settled on this fantasy 1.2 million. Nobody knows how many DGUs happen in the US, that's a fact. Anyone who says otherwise is lying.

What Kleck found in his research when he discovered the CDC was hiding data...

What Do CDC's Surveys Say About the Frequency of Defensive Gun Uses? by Gary Kleck :: SSRN



Abstract
In 1996, 1997, and 1998, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) conducted large-scale surveys asking about defensive gun use (DGU) in four to seven states. Analysis of the raw data allows the estimation of the prevalence of DGU for those areas. Data pertaining to the same sets of states from the 1993 National Self-Defense Survey (Kleck and Gertz 1995) allow these results to be extrapolated to the U.S. as a whole. CDC’s survey data confirm previous high estimates of DGU prevalence, disconfirm estimates derived from the National Crime Victimization Survey, and indicate that defensive uses of guns by crime victims are far more common than offensive uses by criminals. CDC has never reported these results.
--------


The annual number of DGUs implied
by the 20 national
surveys
summarized in Table 4 ranges from 0.6 million to 6.1 million (omitting the extreme outlier of 9.6 million implied by the 2014 CNN survey), averaging 2.2 million.


Thus, the estimates we derived from the three CDC surveys of 0.6, 0.9, and 1.9 million (Table 3) all fall within the range of estimates generated by previous surveys.

The CDC surveys thereby confirm what nongovernmental surveys have indicated – defensive use of firearms by crime victims is common in the U. S.
----------
Conclusions


In sum, even when CDC, an organization perceived by some to be strongly “anti-gun,” devised and conducted the surveys, their survey results implied huge estimates of defensive gun uses – over a million per year, far more than the number of violent crimes in which offenders used guns. The CDC routinely reports results of the BRFSS regarding a wide variety of topics on their website, including results pertaining to subareas of the nation (CDC 2018b) and even results pertaining to individual states (CDC 2018c). The agency clearly regarded DGU as a topic that was sufficiently important to carefully craft DGU questions and make them available to states to use as optional parts of the very expensive BRFSS.

The CDC did not, however, report their DGU results.

CDC personnel have regarded results pertaining to only seven or fewer states as insufficiently important to report. Or maybe they decided not to report the DGU results because they believed there were problems with the research generating the results. If so, this was not by itself a sufficient justification for completely suppressing important results. A better practice would have been to report the findings, accompanied by appropriate caveats about limitations and possible problems with the research. This would have allowed readers to judge for themselves whether the limitations were so severe that the findings should be discounted, whereas failing to report the findings at all makes this impossible.

Another factor, however, could have played a role in the decision to not report the DGU findings. For CDC’s own 1990s surveys to generate high estimates of DGU prevalence was clearly not helpful to efforts to enact stricter controls over firearms, since it implies that some strict controls might disarm a significant number of people who otherwise would have been able to use a gun for self-protection.

If CDC personnel hold the pro-control or antigun sentiments that organizations like the NRA attribute to them, high estimates of defensive gun uses would be unwelcome news that they would not care to disseminate widely.

=========
A few tips on how to debate if you don't mind!
Stop changing the colour of your type - why do you do that its really irritating?
Keep your arguments to the point.
Keep your arguments concise and factual.
Stop repeating yourself with metres of speculative unsubstantiated info.

Finally I think you should concentrate on the latest mass shooting in Washington state - 20 killed,
rather than on the few shootings we have in Britain per year.

A few tips for you...how about you actually challenge the facts I present.......and a link to 20 actual studies conducted by actual researchers both from private research groups and Federal government agencies are not unsubstantiated infor.......and Pew research group looking at actual crime statistics over the last 27 years is not unsubstantiated info.

And maybe if you weren't obsessed with "guns," and paid actual attention to what caused this crime, you would know what you are talking about.

It was a gang shooting at a party......and it was buried by the press here in the U.S. because the shooters were black gang members. The shooters will have been arrested over and over again for various serious felonies, most likely illegal gun possession, then they will have been released over and over again by democrat party prosecutors for even the most violent crimes......

That is why the shooting happened, not because John and Jane citizen own and carry guns for self defense....

And British gun control laws don't stop shootings like this, so you shouldn't act smug..........the only thing protecting you right now is your criminals don't choose to do this......as often....yet.....

Children among 10 people in hospital after mass shooting in Manchester

Ten people, including two children, were taken to hospital after a shooting at a street party in the Moss Side area of Manchester.

Armed police officers rushed to the scene on a residential street at 2.30am on Sunday, where a party was being held following a Caribbean Carnival at a nearby park.

Britain will understand this as time goes on.......your gangs are learning that British laws and British police are nothing to be feared........
Once again you prove my point, the Manchester shooting was with a shotgun. Shotguns are legal firearms in this country. Who says the gun wasn't acquired legally? The shooter may well have been a law abiding citizen, until they fired those rounds.
Oh, you really have no idea about criminal gangs in the UK, to be expected.
 

Vagabond63

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Oh, it was Kleck, not Lott. My bad. As I said I don't have access to my files at the moment, but the two are interchangeable. Both are NRA shills manipulating data based on "estimates" to pursue thair agendas. No facts, just best guesses.

Neither of them has any connection to the NRA you moron........but since you are facing 20 studies on gun self defense, and 27 years of actual gun ownership facts in the United States...now its "NRA.....NRA....."
Well they deny any links emphatically, to be sure, they protest too much methinks. You keep telling us these studies are in some way factual, yet when you read them you get a wide range of results all based on guesswork and extrapolation. None of those studies present facts, just best guesses and estimates. Without effective gun control and record keeping, that's all you will ever have.
 
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2aguy

2aguy

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Man shot in gun free Britain...

A man has been shot and another stabbed near London's Hyde Park on a weekend of bloodshed in the capital.

Emergency services were called to Upper Berkeley Street, a short distance from Marble Arch Tube station, shortly after 2am on Sunday.

Metropolitan Police officers found one man with a gunshot injury and another man with a stab and head injury. The men, aged in their 20s, were rushed to hospital.

Meanwhile in "Elyria".


It doesnt look like gun ownership kept this family safe. please explain how this mass shooting could happen in a country where everyone is armed ? It doesnt make sense.

Hmmmmm....family murder.....happens in Britain quite a little bit.......but, don't you guys have all the gun control you want?

From 2012....

In the last three months, three fathers have killed their partners, children and themselves - but what drives men to take such drastic action? Radio 4's File on 4 investigates.

"He walked out of the house, took a shotgun from the car, picked our family out and shot them."

Within a matter of minutes taxi driverMichael Atherton killed his partner Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece - before finally turning the gun on himself.

For Susan's family it was a loss from which they will never recover. But this family is not alone.


There's this notion that if they feel they can't carry on in this world they're not going to leave other people behindDr Marilyn Gregory, Sheffield University
The tragedy was one of three so-called "family annihilations" in as many weeks - and there are around five such incidents per year in England and Wales.

There are up to 1000 accidental deaths per year through firearms in the US.
Ban guns and those lives would be saved.

Apart from the 33,500 deaths from firearms each year, there are also 75,000 injuries attributed to firearms.

Time to give it up cowboy, you are never going to convince the British public that guns save lives because the statistics prove the opposite.

Must say I have to give you credit for effort, but maybe your zeal would be better rewarded by promoting something positive that the US has to offer us in Britain cos your gun thing aint never going to fly.
I dont think he does it for our benefit. He is trying to convince an American audience that having guns makes them safer. He doesnt really believe that either,its just his current talking point.
Bottom line is his guns are his only friends and he wants to keep them.
Agreed! But how many times does someone need to bang their head against a brick wall whilst getting nothing but criticism before they realise its futile and give up the ghost?
This guy is evidently just going to keep on banging!
My very first post was to question the insanity of gun deaths in the US.
Though I've stated the stats before on this thread, I'll do so again. You need to forget whether your gun crime has reduced, even if what you say is true which I very much doubt its irrelevant
and suspect if the figures are falling its because you are running out of people intent on killing each other cos they are succeeding.

Gun related deaths per 100,000 population.

USA 12.21
UK 0.23

France 2.83
Canada 2.00
Sweden 1.6
Italy 1.31
Germany 1.17
Australia 0.9
Japan 0.6
Spain 0.31

With a population of 333546000 in the USA. That works out at 40,000 gun deaths per annum.

Coronavirus deaths in comparison work out at 98,000,- true that is more than twice as many, but gun deaths happen every year. Considering the lengths gone to, to stop Corona, isn't it time a total ban on guns was taken to bring the USA in line with what we consider to be a civilized society.

And to get 40,000 which isn't even accurate, you have to mix suicide into the murder rate.....which is just a lie.

Again....we have 320 million people, 600 million guns in the country...

According to the FBI we had 10,265 gun murders...

According to the Centers for Disease Control Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder....

According to the Department of Justice research Americans use their legal guns 1.5 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murder.....

And according to other research, as I posted in this thread.....176,000 lives are saved, on average, each year with our legal guns in the hands of armed citizens....

Can you tell which number is bigger?

176,000 vs 10,265?

You made up the accidental gun death number and pretended it was a real fact....so you have nothing to add to this discussion...
If your "research" was anything other than pure guesswork and data manipulation, if not outright fantasy then people might bother to pay attention. The CDC for example, never made any such CLAIMS, they tried a test survey in a few states using tiny samples asking questions over the phone. The data acquired was considered insufficient to make any sort of analysis so the filed it away until your John Lott turned up demanding the data under freedom of information. He then made wild claims about DGUs which were laughed out of court by his peers so he then settled on this fantasy 1.2 million. Nobody knows how many DGUs happen in the US, that's a fact. Anyone who says otherwise is lying.

What Kleck found in his research when he discovered the CDC was hiding data...

What Do CDC's Surveys Say About the Frequency of Defensive Gun Uses? by Gary Kleck :: SSRN



Abstract
In 1996, 1997, and 1998, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) conducted large-scale surveys asking about defensive gun use (DGU) in four to seven states. Analysis of the raw data allows the estimation of the prevalence of DGU for those areas. Data pertaining to the same sets of states from the 1993 National Self-Defense Survey (Kleck and Gertz 1995) allow these results to be extrapolated to the U.S. as a whole. CDC’s survey data confirm previous high estimates of DGU prevalence, disconfirm estimates derived from the National Crime Victimization Survey, and indicate that defensive uses of guns by crime victims are far more common than offensive uses by criminals. CDC has never reported these results.
--------


The annual number of DGUs implied
by the 20 national
surveys
summarized in Table 4 ranges from 0.6 million to 6.1 million (omitting the extreme outlier of 9.6 million implied by the 2014 CNN survey), averaging 2.2 million.


Thus, the estimates we derived from the three CDC surveys of 0.6, 0.9, and 1.9 million (Table 3) all fall within the range of estimates generated by previous surveys.

The CDC surveys thereby confirm what nongovernmental surveys have indicated – defensive use of firearms by crime victims is common in the U. S.
----------
Conclusions


In sum, even when CDC, an organization perceived by some to be strongly “anti-gun,” devised and conducted the surveys, their survey results implied huge estimates of defensive gun uses – over a million per year, far more than the number of violent crimes in which offenders used guns. The CDC routinely reports results of the BRFSS regarding a wide variety of topics on their website, including results pertaining to subareas of the nation (CDC 2018b) and even results pertaining to individual states (CDC 2018c). The agency clearly regarded DGU as a topic that was sufficiently important to carefully craft DGU questions and make them available to states to use as optional parts of the very expensive BRFSS.

The CDC did not, however, report their DGU results.

CDC personnel have regarded results pertaining to only seven or fewer states as insufficiently important to report. Or maybe they decided not to report the DGU results because they believed there were problems with the research generating the results. If so, this was not by itself a sufficient justification for completely suppressing important results. A better practice would have been to report the findings, accompanied by appropriate caveats about limitations and possible problems with the research. This would have allowed readers to judge for themselves whether the limitations were so severe that the findings should be discounted, whereas failing to report the findings at all makes this impossible.

Another factor, however, could have played a role in the decision to not report the DGU findings. For CDC’s own 1990s surveys to generate high estimates of DGU prevalence was clearly not helpful to efforts to enact stricter controls over firearms, since it implies that some strict controls might disarm a significant number of people who otherwise would have been able to use a gun for self-protection.

If CDC personnel hold the pro-control or antigun sentiments that organizations like the NRA attribute to them, high estimates of defensive gun uses would be unwelcome news that they would not care to disseminate widely.

=========
A few tips on how to debate if you don't mind!
Stop changing the colour of your type - why do you do that its really irritating?
Keep your arguments to the point.
Keep your arguments concise and factual.
Stop repeating yourself with metres of speculative unsubstantiated info.

Finally I think you should concentrate on the latest mass shooting in Washington state - 20 killed,
rather than on the few shootings we have in Britain per year.

A few tips for you...how about you actually challenge the facts I present.......and a link to 20 actual studies conducted by actual researchers both from private research groups and Federal government agencies are not unsubstantiated infor.......and Pew research group looking at actual crime statistics over the last 27 years is not unsubstantiated info.

And maybe if you weren't obsessed with "guns," and paid actual attention to what caused this crime, you would know what you are talking about.

It was a gang shooting at a party......and it was buried by the press here in the U.S. because the shooters were black gang members. The shooters will have been arrested over and over again for various serious felonies, most likely illegal gun possession, then they will have been released over and over again by democrat party prosecutors for even the most violent crimes......

That is why the shooting happened, not because John and Jane citizen own and carry guns for self defense....

And British gun control laws don't stop shootings like this, so you shouldn't act smug..........the only thing protecting you right now is your criminals don't choose to do this......as often....yet.....

Children among 10 people in hospital after mass shooting in Manchester

Ten people, including two children, were taken to hospital after a shooting at a street party in the Moss Side area of Manchester.

Armed police officers rushed to the scene on a residential street at 2.30am on Sunday, where a party was being held following a Caribbean Carnival at a nearby park.

Britain will understand this as time goes on.......your gangs are learning that British laws and British police are nothing to be feared........
Once again you prove my point, the Manchester shooting was with a shotgun. Shotguns are legal firearms in this country. Who says the gun wasn't acquired legally? The shooter may well have been a law abiding citizen, until they fired those rounds.
Oh, you really have no idea about criminal gangs in the UK, to be expected.

Yes......they have guns in Britain, and they could use them to shoot more people...they don't...criminals in Britain have all the guns they want or need, they just choose not to shoot each other as often as American criminals do....it has nothing to do with normal people who own guns for self defense.....

Yes....the lie about normal people just deciding to shoot other people...you have been shown the research but you refuse to understand or accept it.


And the police state that hand guns are being brought into Britain at record levels....
 
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Oh, it was Kleck, not Lott. My bad. As I said I don't have access to my files at the moment, but the two are interchangeable. Both are NRA shills manipulating data based on "estimates" to pursue thair agendas. No facts, just best guesses.

Neither of them has any connection to the NRA you moron........but since you are facing 20 studies on gun self defense, and 27 years of actual gun ownership facts in the United States...now its "NRA.....NRA....."
Well they deny any links emphatically, to be sure, they protest too much methinks. You keep telling us these studies are in some way factual, yet when you read them you get a wide range of results all based on guesswork and extrapolation. None of those studies present facts, just best guesses and estimates. Without effective gun control and record keeping, that's all you will ever have.

They all present high numbers of defensive gun use.....while Pew shows that as more Americans own and carry guns for self defense we did not have an increase in gun crime or gun murder...which is the exact opposite result that you guys say will happen.....

We know what happens when you register guns.....morons like you confiscate them when you get the power......
 

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So....gun crime in Britain is getting worse....with shooters opening fire, hitting children and their mothers and shooting up parties....but...they have gun control....right?

A man and two women have sustained gunshot wounds after attackers opened fire on people attending a party in Harlow, Essex.

Essex police said the man, who is in his 50s and from nearby Grays, was taken to hospital with life-threatening injuries early on Saturday.

Two women in their 20s were taken to hospital with single gunshot wounds, which are not considered to be life-threatening.


It's because we have guns. Rather than write a novel to explain which types of guns we have, here's a 5 minute video to explain all, you might be surprised!!

BRAVO! Thanks for that. saved me a long essay on the subject :clap:
"Captain Kirk" wannabe here tries to fearmonger to pursue a pro-gun agenda; facts are irrelevant to him, he just has a series of cut and pastes that he regurgitates time after time after time. It's very tedious.
And every time he does it, there is no substantive refutation. Normally, it's just a big "Nuh-uh", or "Well, if we did this or that, it wouldn't be so" complete with fingers stuck in ears and chants of "I can't hear you". Not literally, of course rse, but the result is the same. He can repost those over and over because no one bothers to refute them.
Except when they have been substantively refuted, he just cuts and pastes his standard drivel for the next few posts until the refutation is lost in the noise. Ive done this at least three times, and I suspect others have, time and again. He doesn't care that his points are worthless, to him it's all about pushing his NRA talking points. For most of us now, it's easier to ignore his drivel.

Where in anything I post do you see "NRA?" You guys can't challenge anything I post with facts, so you start throwing out "NRA...NRA....."
Exactly.
 

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Oh, it was Kleck, not Lott. My bad. As I said I don't have access to my files at the moment, but the two are interchangeable. Both are NRA shills manipulating data based on "estimates" to pursue thair agendas. No facts, just best guesses.

Neither of them has any connection to the NRA you moron........but since you are facing 20 studies on gun self defense, and 27 years of actual gun ownership facts in the United States...now its "NRA.....NRA....."
Well they deny any links emphatically, to be sure, they protest too much methinks. You keep telling us these studies are in some way factual, yet when you read them you get a wide range of results all based on guesswork and extrapolation. None of those studies present facts, just best guesses and estimates. Without effective gun control and record keeping, that's all you will ever have.

They all present high numbers of defensive gun use.....while Pew shows that as more Americans own and carry guns for self defense we did not have an increase in gun crime or gun murder...which is the exact opposite result that you guys say will happen.....

We know what happens when you register guns.....morons like you confiscate them when you get the power......
Yep.
 

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Oh, it was Kleck, not Lott. My bad. As I said I don't have access to my files at the moment, but the two are interchangeable. Both are NRA shills manipulating data based on "estimates" to pursue thair agendas. No facts, just best guesses.

Neither of them has any connection to the NRA you moron........but since you are facing 20 studies on gun self defense, and 27 years of actual gun ownership facts in the United States...now its "NRA.....NRA....."
Well they deny any links emphatically, to be sure, they protest too much methinks. You keep telling us these studies are in some way factual, yet when you read them you get a wide range of results all based on guesswork and extrapolation. None of those studies present facts, just best guesses and estimates. Without effective gun control and record keeping, that's all you will ever have.

They all present high numbers of defensive gun use.....while Pew shows that as more Americans own and carry guns for self defense we did not have an increase in gun crime or gun murder...which is the exact opposite result that you guys say will happen.....

We know what happens when you register guns.....morons like you confiscate them when you get the power......
No they don't. That's the point. These" "figures" are merely the opinions of paranoid individuals who think their gun makes them safer. Not fact.
 
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Oh, it was Kleck, not Lott. My bad. As I said I don't have access to my files at the moment, but the two are interchangeable. Both are NRA shills manipulating data based on "estimates" to pursue thair agendas. No facts, just best guesses.

Neither of them has any connection to the NRA you moron........but since you are facing 20 studies on gun self defense, and 27 years of actual gun ownership facts in the United States...now its "NRA.....NRA....."
Well they deny any links emphatically, to be sure, they protest too much methinks. You keep telling us these studies are in some way factual, yet when you read them you get a wide range of results all based on guesswork and extrapolation. None of those studies present facts, just best guesses and estimates. Without effective gun control and record keeping, that's all you will ever have.

They all present high numbers of defensive gun use.....while Pew shows that as more Americans own and carry guns for self defense we did not have an increase in gun crime or gun murder...which is the exact opposite result that you guys say will happen.....

We know what happens when you register guns.....morons like you confiscate them when you get the power......
No they don't. That's the point. These" "figures" are merely the opinions of paranoid individuals who think their gun makes them safer. Not fact.

Fact, as more American own and carry guns, our gun murder rate went down 49%......you tell us it would go up, not down. Our gun crime rate went down 75%....you tell us it would go up, not down.

You are wrong on every single aspect of the gun debate.
 
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20 year old man gunned down in gun free Britain...

A murder probe has been launched after a man was shot in north-west London.

The investigation comes after police - including armed officers - and London Ambulance Service paramedics were called to reports of a shooting in Hansel Road, NW6, shortly after midnight on Wednesday.

A man, believed to be aged in his twenties, was found to have been shot and was pronounced dead at the scene, the Metropolitan Police said in a statement.


 

Vagabond63

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Oh, it was Kleck, not Lott. My bad. As I said I don't have access to my files at the moment, but the two are interchangeable. Both are NRA shills manipulating data based on "estimates" to pursue thair agendas. No facts, just best guesses.

Neither of them has any connection to the NRA you moron........but since you are facing 20 studies on gun self defense, and 27 years of actual gun ownership facts in the United States...now its "NRA.....NRA....."
Well they deny any links emphatically, to be sure, they protest too much methinks. You keep telling us these studies are in some way factual, yet when you read them you get a wide range of results all based on guesswork and extrapolation. None of those studies present facts, just best guesses and estimates. Without effective gun control and record keeping, that's all you will ever have.

They all present high numbers of defensive gun use.....while Pew shows that as more Americans own and carry guns for self defense we did not have an increase in gun crime or gun murder...which is the exact opposite result that you guys say will happen.....

We know what happens when you register guns.....morons like you confiscate them when you get the power......
No they don't. That's the point. These" "figures" are merely the opinions of paranoid individuals who think their gun makes them safer. Not fact.

Fact, as more American own and carry guns, our gun murder rate went down 49%......you tell us it would go up, not down. Our gun crime rate went down 75%....you tell us it would go up, not down.

You are wrong on every single aspect of the gun debate.
Once again in your deranged fantasy bubble world you claim I have said something I haven't. I have made my position on gun control very clear. As an ex gun owner, I see the need for rigorous control over who gets to own guns for sport or target practice. For me giving out guns like confetti to anyone is the height of stupidity. Are we clear now?
 

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Oh, it was Kleck, not Lott. My bad. As I said I don't have access to my files at the moment, but the two are interchangeable. Both are NRA shills manipulating data based on "estimates" to pursue thair agendas. No facts, just best guesses.

Neither of them has any connection to the NRA you moron........but since you are facing 20 studies on gun self defense, and 27 years of actual gun ownership facts in the United States...now its "NRA.....NRA....."
Well they deny any links emphatically, to be sure, they protest too much methinks. You keep telling us these studies are in some way factual, yet when you read them you get a wide range of results all based on guesswork and extrapolation. None of those studies present facts, just best guesses and estimates. Without effective gun control and record keeping, that's all you will ever have.

They all present high numbers of defensive gun use..
No they don't. They represent a number of opinions, as there is no objective record kept of DGUs, this is all guesswork. There isn't even a standard definition of what constitutes defensive gun use.
 
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Oh, it was Kleck, not Lott. My bad. As I said I don't have access to my files at the moment, but the two are interchangeable. Both are NRA shills manipulating data based on "estimates" to pursue thair agendas. No facts, just best guesses.

Neither of them has any connection to the NRA you moron........but since you are facing 20 studies on gun self defense, and 27 years of actual gun ownership facts in the United States...now its "NRA.....NRA....."
Well they deny any links emphatically, to be sure, they protest too much methinks. You keep telling us these studies are in some way factual, yet when you read them you get a wide range of results all based on guesswork and extrapolation. None of those studies present facts, just best guesses and estimates. Without effective gun control and record keeping, that's all you will ever have.

They all present high numbers of defensive gun use..
No they don't. They represent a number of opinions, as there is no objective record kept of DGUs, this is all guesswork. There isn't even a standard definition of what constitutes defensive gun use.

Actual research conducted by actual professionals......but keep denying it.......that is all you have.
 

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Oh, it was Kleck, not Lott. My bad. As I said I don't have access to my files at the moment, but the two are interchangeable. Both are NRA shills manipulating data based on "estimates" to pursue thair agendas. No facts, just best guesses.

Neither of them has any connection to the NRA you moron........but since you are facing 20 studies on gun self defense, and 27 years of actual gun ownership facts in the United States...now its "NRA.....NRA....."
Well they deny any links emphatically, to be sure, they protest too much methinks. You keep telling us these studies are in some way factual, yet when you read them you get a wide range of results all based on guesswork and extrapolation. None of those studies present facts, just best guesses and estimates. Without effective gun control and record keeping, that's all you will ever have.

They all present high numbers of defensive gun use..
No they don't. They represent a number of opinions, as there is no objective record kept of DGUs, this is all guesswork. There isn't even a standard definition of what constitutes defensive gun use.

Actual research conducted by actual professionals......but keep denying it.......that is all you have.
All you have is guesswork and extrapolation based on telephone interviews which may be made up, there's no way of telling. There are no facts presented in your so called "research". There is as much "research" out there that contradicts and debunks your "professionals" in any event. Without proper records, without gun control, all you will ever have is guesswork. Unfortunately you appear to be too much of a fanatic to grasp that, because to do so would burst your gun fantasy bubble.
 

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20 year old man gunned down in gun free Britain...

A murder probe has been launched after a man was shot in north-west London.

The investigation comes after police - including armed officers - and London Ambulance Service paramedics were called to reports of a shooting in Hansel Road, NW6, shortly after midnight on Wednesday.

A man, believed to be aged in his twenties, was found to have been shot and was pronounced dead at the scene, the Metropolitan Police said in a statement.


Probably a blue on blue targeted assassination. Sad but irrelevant to this discussion.
 
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Oh, it was Kleck, not Lott. My bad. As I said I don't have access to my files at the moment, but the two are interchangeable. Both are NRA shills manipulating data based on "estimates" to pursue thair agendas. No facts, just best guesses.

Neither of them has any connection to the NRA you moron........but since you are facing 20 studies on gun self defense, and 27 years of actual gun ownership facts in the United States...now its "NRA.....NRA....."
Well they deny any links emphatically, to be sure, they protest too much methinks. You keep telling us these studies are in some way factual, yet when you read them you get a wide range of results all based on guesswork and extrapolation. None of those studies present facts, just best guesses and estimates. Without effective gun control and record keeping, that's all you will ever have.

They all present high numbers of defensive gun use..
No they don't. They represent a number of opinions, as there is no objective record kept of DGUs, this is all guesswork. There isn't even a standard definition of what constitutes defensive gun use.

Actual research conducted by actual professionals......but keep denying it.......that is all you have.
All you have is guesswork and extrapolation based on telephone interviews which may be made up, there's no way of telling. There are no facts presented in your so called "research". There is as much "research" out there that contradicts and debunks your "professionals" in any event. Without proper records, without gun control, all you will ever have is guesswork. Unfortunately you appear to be too much of a fanatic to grasp that, because to do so would burst your gun fantasy bubble.

Again...these are trained researchers from both private and government research groups....they used tried and true research techniques to look at the issue......you can't deny that, so you pretend their research doesn't count......

We know what you want with "proper records," which Germany, France, Canada, Britain, Australia, New Zealand and other countries use to ban and confiscate guns........so no, we had gun crime go down as more Americans own and carry guns, nothing you believe about guns and gun ownership is even remotely true or accurate......
 
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20 year old man gunned down in gun free Britain...

A murder probe has been launched after a man was shot in north-west London.

The investigation comes after police - including armed officers - and London Ambulance Service paramedics were called to reports of a shooting in Hansel Road, NW6, shortly after midnight on Wednesday.

A man, believed to be aged in his twenties, was found to have been shot and was pronounced dead at the scene, the Metropolitan Police said in a statement.


Probably a blue on blue targeted assassination. Sad but irrelevant to this discussion.

No...this is about the failure of British gun control laws to stop criminals from getting illegal guns....on an island......with extreme gun control........
 

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