Shelling of Donetsk. "Russia, take revenge!"

[gipper]

No, in fact I think this conversation is over.

Yes. Agreed. I hope you learned something.

 

[Coyote]

Wait, are you saying that Ringo personally is killing people in Ukraine?

Lots of civilians dead in war. Just ask Joe Biden and the families and children he murdered pulling out of Afghanistan mistaking them for terrorists.

People die in war, which is why Biden should have done everything to AVOID a war there rather than ESCALATE and protract it.

Hold on.
Are you suggesting the U.S. and EU should have ignored Ukraines pleas for assistance and let Russia invade a sovereign country? What specifically could Biden have done differently…throw Ukraine under the bus? You realize what Russia is doing to captured Ukrainian civilians,right?

 

[frigidweirdo]

Yes. Agreed. I hope you learned something.

Yes, that a lot of people just make shit up and are unable to make an argument to support what they say. Actually I knew that before, but anyway.

 

[toobfreak]

Hold on.

I always have a firm grip.

Are you suggesting the U.S. and EU should have ignored Ukraines pleas for assistance and let Russia invade a sovereign country?

1. I never said any such thing, but by last check, they are a sovereign country which last I checked just a few years ago CAME from the USSR! So they have had all these past years to expect and prepare, especially after Crimea. I was actually the first person that I have seen anywhere predict the invasion of Ukraine, not just down to the correct week, but within 24 hours of the actual invasion!
2. Not that I begrudge my part in the slightest to help a deserving underdog but last I looked, aren't there about THIRTY-FIVE major countries much closer to and more involved with Ukraine? How is it that once again, I am paying the lion's share of aid to a country that means next to nothing to me, shouldn't mean just as much or more to its neighbors--of which, estimates suggest only 30% of what we give makes it to the actual front line? Who are we really funding clandestinely?
3. What will we do if some ruthless barbarian invades North Korea or Iran? Send billions, too?
4. When is the help for Tibet ever coming?
5. Why is it MY burden to help and protect every dump in the world that never did anything for me so that the rest of the countries right nest door can effectively skate? WHEN THE HELL DOES AMERICA EVER GET 100% OF THE FED'S ATTENTION IT NEEDS WE SENT THEM THERE FOR IN THE FIRST PLACE AND WITH MY MONEY AND YOURS??? Do you understand thievery?
6. So just who is my runaway, unaccountable overbearing government sucking the dick of this time hidden from the public's view where more billions upon billions of borrowed chinese money is disappearing this time?

 

[toomuchtime_]

I always have a firm grip.

1. I never said any such thing, but by last check, they are a sovereign country which last I checked just a few years ago CAME from the USSR! So they have had all these past years to expect and prepare, especially after Crimea. I was actually the first person that I have seen anywhere predict the invasion of Ukraine, not just down to the correct week, but within 24 hours of the actual invasion!
2. Not that I begrudge my part in the slightest to help a deserving underdog but last I looked, aren't there about THIRTY-FIVE major countries much closer to and more involved with Ukraine? How is it that once again, I am paying the lion's share of aid to a country that means next to nothing to me, shouldn't mean just as much or more to its neighbors--of which, estimates suggest only 30% of what we give makes it to the actual front line? Who are we really funding clandestinely?
3. What will we do if some ruthless barbarian invades North Korea or Iran? Send billions, too?
4. When is the help for Tibet ever coming?
5. Why is it MY burden to help and protect every dump in the world that never did anything for me so that the rest of the countries right nest door can effectively skate? WHEN THE HELL DOES AMERICA EVER GET 100% OF THE FED'S ATTENTION IT NEEDS WE SENT THEM THERE FOR IN THE FIRST PLACE AND WITH MY MONEY AND YOURS??? Do you understand thievery?
6. So just who is my runaway, unaccountable overbearing government sucking the dick of this time hidden from the public's view where more billions upon billions of borrowed chinese money is disappearing this time?

In other words you are suggesting the U.S. and EU should have ignored Ukraine's pleas for assistance and let Russia invade a sovereign country.

 

[toobfreak]

In other words you are suggesting the U.S. and EU should have ignored Ukraine's pleas

You're the 2nd lefty to ask that. Where do I ever suggest that?

 

[toomuchtime_]

You're the 2nd lefty to ask that. Where do I ever suggest that?

I'm nor lefty and although you didn't say those exact words, your staunch opposition to providing military aid to Ukraine makes it clear you think the US should have ignored Ukraine's pleas for help. Stop trying to weasel out of what you said.

 

[toobfreak]

Stop trying to weasel out of what you said.

I never said it, asshole. Stop trying to put words in my mouth.

 

[toomuchtime_]

I never said it, asshole. Stop trying to put words in my mouth.

Stop trying to deny what you said.

 

[Ringo]

Defend ITS borders, yes. Defend other people's borders? No.

What borders, idiot? Borders created by the USSR?
After the West destroyed Yugoslavia and destroyed some other borders in Europe, only a hypocritical bastard can talk about the "inviolability of borders"

 

[georgephillip]

Defend ITS borders, yes. Defend other people's borders? No.

European borders have been changing for thousands of years.

"What is being asked in the 'referendums'?​

• In the self-declared, unrecognised Luhansk and Donetsk 'people's republics', people are being asked whether they 'support their republic's accession to Russia as a federal subject'
• In Zaporizhzhia and Kherson, they are being asked if they 'favour the region's secession from Ukraine, creation of an independent country and subsequent accession to Russia as a federal subject'
• In Luhansk and Donetsk, ballots are printed in Russian only
• In Zaporizhzhia and Kherson, the ballot is in Ukrainian and Russian"

Ukraine 'referendums': Soldiers go door-to-door for votes in polls

 

[frigidweirdo]

European borders have been changing for thousands of years.

"What is being asked in the 'referendums'?​

• In the self-declared, unrecognised Luhansk and Donetsk 'people's republics', people are being asked whether they 'support their republic's accession to Russia as a federal subject'
• In Zaporizhzhia and Kherson, they are being asked if they 'favour the region's secession from Ukraine, creation of an independent country and subsequent accession to Russia as a federal subject'
• In Luhansk and Donetsk, ballots are printed in Russian only
• In Zaporizhzhia and Kherson, the ballot is in Ukrainian and Russian"

Ukraine 'referendums': Soldiers go door-to-door for votes in polls

Yes, they have. And people got a little fed up of wars and didn't really expect this sort of thing in the 21st century.

 

[georgephillip]

Yes, they have. And people got a little fed up of wars and didn't really expect this sort of thing in the 21st century.

In which case those people should have told Joe Biden, Victoria Nuland, and Obama to avoid siding with Nazis in Ukraine when police officers were murdered in order to drive a duly elected president from office.

Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call

Nuland: [Breaks in] I think Yats is the guy who's got the economic experience, the governing experience. He's the... what he needs is Klitsch and Tyahnybok on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week, you know. I just think Klitsch going in... he's going to be at that level working for Yatseniuk, it's just not going to work.
Pyatt: Yeah, no, I think that's right. OK. Good. Do you want us to set up a call with him as the next step?
Nuland: My understanding from that call - but you tell me - was that the big three were going into their own meeting and that Yats was going to offer in that context a... three-plus-one conversation or three-plus-two with you. Is that not how you understood it?"

 

[gipper]

Yes, that a lot of people just make shit up and are unable to make an argument to support what they say. Actually I knew that before, but anyway.

If you’re interested, there are a number of posts in this thread and in others that will enlighten you to the real reasons for this war.

 

[Coyote]

I always have a firm grip.

1. I never said any such thing, but by last check, they are a sovereign country which last I checked just a few years ago CAME from the USSR! So they have had all these past years to expect and prepare, especially after Crimea. I was actually the first person that I have seen anywhere predict the invasion of Ukraine, not just down to the correct week, but within 24 hours of the actual invasion!

They were a sovereign nation 40 years ago. What difference does it make that they were once part of the USSR? Did you notice they HAVE prepared better since Crimea? Even before the influx of weapons from the west? But they are still a tiny country facing a much larger better funded and better armed country who is invading them.

1. Not that I begrudge my part in the slightest to help a deserving underdog but last I looked, aren't there about THIRTY-FIVE major countries much closer to and more involved with Ukraine? How is it that once again, I am paying the lion's share of aid to a country that means next to nothing to me, shouldn't mean just as much or more to its neighbors--of which, estimates suggest only 30% of what we give makes it to the actual front line? Who are we really funding clandestinely?

Infographic: Where Military Aid to Ukraine Comes From

This chart shows the countries pledging most arms/weapons transfers to Ukraine, Jan 24 to Aug 3, 2022 (in billion U.S. dollars).

www.statista.com

Looking at pledges of military aid to Ukraine between Jan 24 and August 3, the U.S. government has committed to providing the most arms, weapons and other equipment by far. $25 billion in military aid was pledged up until the given date, according to the Ukraine Support Tracker by the Kiel Institute for the World Economy.

The second-ranked country, the United Kingdom, has pledged far less - just over $4 billion – in the given time frame. In relative terms, however, both military aid commitments amount to approximately 0.1 percent of either country's GDP. Looking at this metric, Ukraine's smaller neighbors contributed more to its war effort, for example Poland (military aid of 0.3 percent of GDP) or Estonia (0.8 percent). Even when combining military, financial and humanitarian aid delivered or pledged by the U.S. is added up, this only amounts to 0.2 percent the country's GDP.

Other big donors of military aid to Ukraine are Germany and Canada - even though their relative pledges only amount to 0.03 percent and 0.06 percent of their respective GDPs.

1. What will we do if some ruthless barbarian invades North Korea or Iran? Send billions, too?

Why? Are they allies? Is Ukraine an enemy?

1. When is the help for Tibet ever coming?

Lots of issues within China’s sphere that are problematic particularly with human rights, what should we do?

In my opinion:
Russia’s military invasion of a sovereign nation marks a major break with a long established and agreed upon world order. Russia is a major member in the UN with veto power, which makes that much worse. This marks an existential threat to something that we have taken for granted in a way that smaller conflicts do not. Presumably Putin’s intent is to re-establish the old Soviet empire, and swallow all it’s former satellites: Georgia, Estonia etc…Poland, Serbia…

Is this in our national interests? What about that of our allies? Do allies mean anything…? You support Israel’s right to exist, and I can’t find where you have complained our support of Israel, so why is Ukraine different?

Look at how ruthless (channeling Stalin) Putin has been, the energy and supply chain disruptions, the energy blackmail. You can’t say it won’t affect us. It has.

1. Why is it MY burden to help and protect every dump in the world that never did anything for me so that the rest of the countries right nest door can effectively skate? WHEN THE HELL DOES AMERICA EVER GET 100% OF THE FED'S ATTENTION IT NEEDS WE SENT THEM THERE FOR IN THE FIRST PLACE AND WITH MY MONEY AND YOURS??? Do you understand thievery?

Because we do not exist in our own universe, immune from world events. I don’t object to my money going towards this, and, the THINGS I DO OBJECT TO, get funded with MY money anyway.

1. So just who is my runaway, unaccountable overbearing government sucking the dick of this time hidden from the public's view where more billions upon billions of borrowed chinese money is disappearing this time?

Don’t know what you are talking about on this one.

 

[frigidweirdo]

In which case those people should have told Joe Biden, Victoria Nuland, and Obama to avoid siding with Nazis in Ukraine when police officers were murdered in order to drive a duly elected president from office.

Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call

Nuland: [Breaks in] I think Yats is the guy who's got the economic experience, the governing experience. He's the... what he needs is Klitsch and Tyahnybok on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week, you know. I just think Klitsch going in... he's going to be at that level working for Yatseniuk, it's just not going to work.
Pyatt: Yeah, no, I think that's right. OK. Good. Do you want us to set up a call with him as the next step?
Nuland: My understanding from that call - but you tell me - was that the big three were going into their own meeting and that Yats was going to offer in that context a... three-plus-one conversation or three-plus-two with you. Is that not how you understood it?"

The problem here is, if you want to avoid "bad guys", then you're going to struggle, seeing how there are bad guys on both sides.

The US has Nazis. They tend to vote Republican. So when Bush invaded Iraq, was that Nazis?

US military in Iraq needed “hardcore” troops with warlike mentality - journalist

Under the Bush administration the U.S. military allegedly started to recruit neo-Nazis and gang members to fight in Afghanistan and Iraq, argues investigative journalist Matt Kennard.

www.rt.com

"Under the Bush administration the U.S. military allegedly started to recruit neo-Nazis and gang members to fight in Afghanistan and Iraq, argues investigative journalist Matt Kennard."

The US, as shown by Biden's ridiculous speech the other day, is hypocritical. The US invades, it does whatever it wants and everyone just accepts it. What's the difference between the Ukraine and the US? Not much, other than the US can do whatever it likes.

 

[frigidweirdo]

If you’re interested, there are a number of posts in this thread and in others that will enlighten you to the real reasons for this war.

Oh, and I'm sure I should accept this without question, but when it comes to other stuff, I should reject it without question because.... because... well, fuck it, let's just use "because...."

 

[georgephillip]

If you’re interested, there are a number of posts in this thread and in others that will enlighten you to the real reasons for this war.

"In the fourth act of 'Henry IV' the King on his death-bed gives his son and heir the ancient advice dear to the hearts of rulers in dire straits at home:

'I … had a purpose now
To lead out many to the Holy Land,
Lest rest and lying still might make them look Too near unto my state. Therefore, my Harry, Be it thy course, to busy giddy minds
With foreign quarrels; that action, hence borne out, May waste the memory of the former days.'"

Giddy Minds and Foreign Quarrels*

 

[georgephillip]

Wake up! There is nothing Russia can do to win the war in Ukraine.

There's a greater chance of a Russian victory than there is for a Nazi/NATO triumph in Ukraine:

Azov fighters are Ukraine's greatest weapon and may be its greatest threat

"'I have nothing against Russian nationalists, or a great Russia,' said Dmitry, as we sped through the dark Mariupol night in a pickup truck, a machine gunner positioned in the back. 'But Putin's not even a Russian. Putin's a Jew.'

"Dmitry – which he said is not his real name – is a native of east Ukraine and a member of the Azov battalion, a volunteer grouping that has been doing much of the frontline fighting in Ukraine's war with pro-Russia separatists.

"The Azov, one of many volunteer brigades to fight alongside the Ukrainian army in the east of the country, has developed a reputation for fearlessness in battle."

 

[ESay]

In which case those people should have told Joe Biden, Victoria Nuland, and Obama to avoid siding with Nazis in Ukraine when police officers were murdered in order to drive a duly elected president from office.

Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call

Nuland: [Breaks in] I think Yats is the guy who's got the economic experience, the governing experience. He's the... what he needs is Klitsch and Tyahnybok on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week, you know. I just think Klitsch going in... he's going to be at that level working for Yatseniuk, it's just not going to work.
Pyatt: Yeah, no, I think that's right. OK. Good. Do you want us to set up a call with him as the next step?
Nuland: My understanding from that call - but you tell me - was that the big three were going into their own meeting and that Yats was going to offer in that context a... three-plus-one conversation or three-plus-two with you. Is that not how you understood it?"

Idiot, do you know what is written on that photo?