Serious Questions

[Gdjjr]

I didn't/don't want to hi jack this thread- America Founded as a Christian Nation

But I got to thinking about something that is pertinent I think. If indeed the above is the case, shouldn't it also be blamed for the failure?

And please don't add insult to injury by saying man failed christianity. As with anything, if it's worthy of embracing, or achieving, it must be easily recognizable as such. STOP! I didn't say easy to achieve. I said easily recognizable as such. Yet, here we are some 200+ years gone by and where are we? The worthiness of the actions of this nation are absolutely preposterously evil. It operated on Double Standards along with, like religion, christianity, specifically in our case, to divide people and group them accordingly. Not only do we do it domestically we do it abroad. Allies/tools or enemies.

So, shouldn't christianity also take the blame for the failure of the alleged free people of the world?

 

[there4eyeM]

As true "Christianity" is an entirely individual thing, there can be no collective responsibility for "Christianity". It is clearly insisted upon by Jesus that the believer has a direct relationship to his/her belief and it is only between the believer and the Creator. Certain groups and cults claim "Christianity" as theirs, and we could ascribe some responsibility to them for not living up to what is claimed.

 

[sparky]

As a recovering Christian, i constantly & consciously parse 'religion' from 'faith'

they are two separate distinctions , one can exist w/out the other & often does

I apply this to the whole 'christian nation' debate in the sense of legislating morality through theological bureaucracy

which are no more than control freaks hiding behind the cross

~S~

 

[Gdjjr]

As true "Christianity" is an entirely individual thing, there can be no collective responsibility for "Christianity". It is clearly insisted upon by Jesus that the believer has a direct relationship to his/her belief and it is only between the believer and the Creator. Certain groups and cults claim "Christianity" as theirs, and we could ascribe some responsibility to them for not living up to what is claimed.

I guess, no, I know, where I have a problem with the "belief"- it's the "faith" in words in a book purported to be God's word, or Jesus's word. I typed we, but I'm changing that to I- I can no more be assured of that than a goose. How do we know it isn't Allah's words? How do we know the entire thing isn't just a really good story? There are today, authors who are pretty good at mimicking an original authors style. Religion in general, and christianity in particular in this Country, is about grouping as tools or enemies- based simply on faith in something that can't be verified. So, we're to accept, on faith, that the words of men (many) down through the ages, translated so many times they can't be counted, were actually spoken. There are so many variations why should one be believed over another? Faith? In what? Man's words.

The actions of the practitioners leave a lot to be desired. The rules by the various factions/denominations proves beyond doubt that there is not a clear a definitive, so we take it on "faith". There are so many variances and nuances in each variation that a scholarly, esoteric endeavor is required to even begin to pretend to have a starting place never mind an ending.

I don't get that. And I'm a person who is well acquainted with nothing worth having is easy, simple isn't spelled easy btw. Yet there are so many variations and rules that it isn't even simple. It tells me we're to look around and decide which variation we prefer- variations which, btw, are man made. I don't get it.

I was a church attendee years ago. As a kid, every Sunday morning, every Sunday night, every Wednesday night, ever night of a Revival and every day of Vacation Bible school- as an adult I attended a Southern Baptist Conference affiliate, so it's not like I don't have at least a little knowledge. Not scholarly for sure and certainly not esoteric- but a basic understanding of what I listened to in sermons and observed in real life and not just mine.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

I didn't/don't want to hi jack this thread- America Founded as a Christian Nation

But I got to thinking about something that is pertinent I think. If indeed the above is the case, shouldn't it also be blamed for the failure?

And please don't add insult to injury by saying man failed christianity. As with anything, if it's worthy of embracing, or achieving, it must be easily recognizable as such. STOP! I didn't say easy to achieve. I said easily recognizable as such. Yet, here we are some 200+ years gone by and where are we? The worthiness of the actions of this nation are absolutely preposterously evil. It operated on Double Standards along with, like religion, christianity, specifically in our case, to divide people and group them accordingly. Not only do we do it domestically we do it abroad. Allies/tools or enemies.

So, shouldn't christianity also take the blame for the failure of the alleged free people of the world?

The people of the Book have rejected God. Today's version of Christianity is a freaking joke and we are at this point because of the Christians. They've adopted most of the ills they claim are sinful.

 

[Gdjjr]

As a recovering Christian, i constantly & consciously parse 'religion' from 'faith'

they are two separate distinctions , one can exist w/out the other & often does

I apply this to the whole 'christian nation' debate in the sense of legislating morality through theological bureaucracy

which are no more than control freaks hiding behind the cross

~S~

Amen! LOL-

 

[Gdjjr]

The people of the Book have rejected God.

That's an interesting take- I've never seen or heard that-

 

[Porter Rockwell]

The people of the Book have rejected God.

That's an interesting take- I've never seen or heard that-

I blame modern churchianity (which isn't Christianity, but organized religion) for most of the problems this country is suffering. Had we kept our commission (I keep posting links to John Winthrop's sermon on this) we'd have a totally different country.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

As true "Christianity" is an entirely individual thing, there can be no collective responsibility for "Christianity". It is clearly insisted upon by Jesus that the believer has a direct relationship to his/her belief and it is only between the believer and the Creator. Certain groups and cults claim "Christianity" as theirs, and we could ascribe some responsibility to them for not living up to what is claimed.

I guess, no, I know, where I have a problem with the "belief"- it's the "faith" in words in a book purported to be God's word, or Jesus's word. I typed we, but I'm changing that to I- I can no more be assured of that than a goose. How do we know it isn't Allah's words? How do we know the entire thing isn't just a really good story? There are today, authors who are pretty good at mimicking an original authors style. Religion in general, and christianity in particular in this Country, is about grouping as tools or enemies- based simply on faith in something that can't be verified. So, we're to accept, on faith, that the words of men (many) down through the ages, translated so many times they can't be counted, were actually spoken. There are so many variations why should one be believed over another? Faith? In what? Man's words.

The actions of the practitioners leave a lot to be desired. The rules by the various factions/denominations proves beyond doubt that there is not a clear a definitive, so we take it on "faith". There are so many variances and nuances in each variation that a scholarly, esoteric endeavor is required to even begin to pretend to have a starting place never mind an ending.

I don't get that. And I'm a person who is well acquainted with nothing worth having is easy, simple isn't spelled easy btw. Yet there are so many variations and rules that it isn't even simple. It tells me we're to look around and decide which variation we prefer- variations which, btw, are man made. I don't get it.

I was a church attendee years ago. As a kid, every Sunday morning, every Sunday night, every Wednesday night, ever night of a Revival and every day of Vacation Bible school- as an adult I attended a Southern Baptist Conference affiliate, so it's not like I don't have at least a little knowledge. Not scholarly for sure and certainly not esoteric- but a basic understanding of what I listened to in sermons and observed in real life and not just mine.

Maybe you should have shopped around and gotten other perspectives.

 

[sparky]

As true "Christianity" is an entirely individual thing, there can be no collective responsibility for "Christianity". It is clearly insisted upon by Jesus that the believer has a direct relationship to his/her belief and it is only between the believer and the Creator. Certain groups and cults claim "Christianity" as theirs, and we could ascribe some responsibility to them for not living up to what is claimed.

I guess, no, I know, where I have a problem with the "belief"- it's the "faith" in words in a book purported to be God's word, or Jesus's word. I typed we, but I'm changing that to I- I can no more be assured of that than a goose. How do we know it isn't Allah's words? How do we know the entire thing isn't just a really good story? There are today, authors who are pretty good at mimicking an original authors style. Religion in general, and christianity in particular in this Country, is about grouping as tools or enemies- based simply on faith in something that can't be verified. So, we're to accept, on faith, that the words of men (many) down through the ages, translated so many times they can't be counted, were actually spoken. There are so many variations why should one be believed over another? Faith? In what? Man's words.

The actions of the practitioners leave a lot to be desired. The rules by the various factions/denominations proves beyond doubt that there is not a clear a definitive, so we take it on "faith". There are so many variances and nuances in each variation that a scholarly, esoteric endeavor is required to even begin to pretend to have a starting place never mind an ending.

I don't get that. And I'm a person who is well acquainted with nothing worth having is easy, simple isn't spelled easy btw. Yet there are so many variations and rules that it isn't even simple. It tells me we're to look around and decide which variation we prefer- variations which, btw, are man made. I don't get it.

I was a church attendee years ago. As a kid, every Sunday morning, every Sunday night, every Wednesday night, ever night of a Revival and every day of Vacation Bible school- as an adult I attended a Southern Baptist Conference affiliate, so it's not like I don't have at least a little knowledge. Not scholarly for sure and certainly not esoteric- but a basic understanding of what I listened to in sermons and observed in real life and not just mine.

Maybe you should have shopped around and gotten other perspectives.

Good point

I invite all that come to my door in to say their piece, mormons, jehovahs, 7th day folks, even had a few cultists

They're all on a mission to 'save us from ourselves' ,all with their own religious bent

As well as some rather interesting religious proclivities....carrot/stick, if you will....

~S~

 

[Gdjjr]

I blame modern churchianity (which isn't Christianity, but organized religion) for most of the problems this country is suffering. Had we kept our commission (I keep posting links to John Winthrop's sermon on this) we'd have a totally different country.

Good way to put it- I don't do sermons though- I appreciate your efforts however. Preaching to vs actions is pretentious.

 

[Mac1958]

I didn't/don't want to hi jack this thread- America Founded as a Christian Nation

But I got to thinking about something that is pertinent I think. If indeed the above is the case, shouldn't it also be blamed for the failure?

And please don't add insult to injury by saying man failed christianity. As with anything, if it's worthy of embracing, or achieving, it must be easily recognizable as such. STOP! I didn't say easy to achieve. I said easily recognizable as such. Yet, here we are some 200+ years gone by and where are we? The worthiness of the actions of this nation are absolutely preposterously evil. It operated on Double Standards along with, like religion, christianity, specifically in our case, to divide people and group them accordingly. Not only do we do it domestically we do it abroad. Allies/tools or enemies.

So, shouldn't christianity also take the blame for the failure of the alleged free people of the world?

As I understand it, we've created and maintained roughly 2,500 gods over our existence on this planet. It its best form, religion provides comfort, strength, answers, hope and guidance. Those are all very good things, and I can certainly understand how people can have a strong need for those things.

But obviously, religion can EASILY be manipulated to prey on the weaknesses and needs of people as well, AND it can be used as an excuse for some terrible shit. The full list of horrific things done in the name of religion would use up a lot of bandwidth here.

As with pretty much anything else, if those who believe in something are going to be honest, they have to honestly admit the flaws of their beliefs and hold others who believe like them, accountable. As a species, we're just not very good at that. At least not yet.
.

 

[Gdjjr]

As a species, we're just not very good at that. At least not yet.

And won't be in our lifetime- it's a really simple concept/principle/life philosophy the religious vehemently disagree with and so do the band of corrupt, morally bankrupt, liars in the District of Criminals- all men are created equal and have certain unalienable rights- so, with that knowledge in mind, and the knowledge that Individual effort creates the Greater Good naturally and gives exponential results ( as does anything, evil included), eventually, and that seeds sown produce fruit, I say to others- work diligently to leave your space a little better than you found it and you have been a success in life which is really everyone's job and is all that matters-

 

[Mac1958]

As a species, we're just not very good at that. At least not yet.

And won't be in our lifetime- it's a really simple concept/principle/life philosophy the religious vehemently disagree with and so do the band of corrupt, morally bankrupt, liars in the District of Criminals- all men are created equal and have certain unalienable rights- so, with that knowledge in mind, and the knowledge that Individual effort creates the Greater Good naturally and gives exponential results ( as does anything, evil included), eventually, and that seeds sown produce fruit, I say to others- work diligently to leave your space a little better than you found it and you have been a success in life which is really everyone's job and is all that matters-

Yeah. We can't even begin to go in the right direction until we stop going in the OTHER direction. That won't be happening any time soon.
.

 

[ding]

I didn't/don't want to hi jack this thread- America Founded as a Christian Nation

But I got to thinking about something that is pertinent I think. If indeed the above is the case, shouldn't it also be blamed for the failure?

And please don't add insult to injury by saying man failed christianity. As with anything, if it's worthy of embracing, or achieving, it must be easily recognizable as such. STOP! I didn't say easy to achieve. I said easily recognizable as such. Yet, here we are some 200+ years gone by and where are we? The worthiness of the actions of this nation are absolutely preposterously evil. It operated on Double Standards along with, like religion, christianity, specifically in our case, to divide people and group them accordingly. Not only do we do it domestically we do it abroad. Allies/tools or enemies.

So, shouldn't christianity also take the blame for the failure of the alleged free people of the world?

Sure. At any point in time we are the sum of our choices.

By any objective measure America has been a force for good.

 

[Gdjjr]

We can't even begin to go in the right direction until we stop going in the OTHER direction

We all have regrets in life, one of the few I carry is the lack of charisma- one I don't have is a keen skill at observation and forming conclusions based on those observations, some casual and some studied- the quoted brings to mind a couple of those conclusions- some things can't be denied is a phrase I use often- the following are a couple of them.

When havoc is created, chaos ensues and catastrophe is then inevitable.
Catastrophic occurs when a dynamic tries to stop. A dynamic can have the direction changed incrementally with a minimum of catastrophe. Any immediate change, like stopping it, isn't minimal.


With that in mind and more study I determined that sowing seeds is a natural occurrence which produces fruit. In the human species sowing seeds involves a lot of different variety of seeds and fruit. My personal preference are seeds of Liberty. The change of direction born with the fruit of those seeds is incremental and takes time. Fruit from seeds produces more seeds.

Another analogy is tearing something down takes very little time vs building or rebuilding.

I've read that wise American Indians looked seven years toward the future to help determine a conclusion of importance and made suggestions and changes with that time frame in mind.
We, as a people, are slaves to instant gratification- not future results. Instant gratification can often cause buyers remorse causing yet another change in direction. Patience is not a virtue in today's world.

Some things can't be denied. The question is begged; what do I do with that knowledge? I, as in the Individual. The Greater Good created naturally assumes a life of its own and Individual effort ensures it's a natural happening. It can't be bought, sold, given or taken or legislated it can, however, as the preamble to the constitution says: Promoted.

 

[there4eyeM]

The point about Jesus was that the very person upon whom a religion has (or religions have been, if we take "Christian" in certain ways) based can only be quoted as emphasizing individual responsibility. It was not an attempt to ascribe anything else to Jesus. That's up to each person who comes upon the subject.
It should be obvious that if 'God' exists, it would be inherently impossible to contain and define such a One with man's mere words and thoughts. The absolutely very most that could ever be expressed would be metaphors, even if the speaker/thinker didn't realize that.
The only intellectually honest thing any thinker can say is that there is too much we don't know to be too certain about what we think we know.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

I blame modern churchianity (which isn't Christianity, but organized religion) for most of the problems this country is suffering. Had we kept our commission (I keep posting links to John Winthrop's sermon on this) we'd have a totally different country.

Good way to put it- I don't do sermons though- I appreciate your efforts however. Preaching to vs actions is pretentious.

I do both.

 

[there4eyeM]

The only religious revelation that counts is personal revelation. Just "believing" based on "hear say" is without depth.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

The only religious revelation that counts is personal revelation.

*and it only counts to that individual