Zone1 Christianity and our founding fathers

[NotfooledbyW]

"Liberation from theism and religion are necessary for social and political liberation." Austin Cline

I'm certain the founding fathers would have taken umbrage with Austin Cline's "philosophy and logic."

That is Doubtful Saint Ding; However it is certifiably true that the founding fathers took umbrage at the Catholic Church and the European system of Divine Right of Kings in cahoots with oppressive Christianity.


Do you have any evidence that Austin Klein was not a law abiding human being?

Anyway, John Adams was ok with atheism when they fought for American Independence and individual liberty

Founding Father John Adams: Christianity, Atheism and Democracy • A Tippling Philosopher

The Founding Fathers are still on the front line of debate amongst atheists and Christians, secularists and theocrats alike. All these years later there is still confusion abounding. Part of the reason why is that there are many misquotes (and this can happen on both sides). Here, for example...

skepticink.com

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Well, John Adams was the second US president and was an American lawyer, author, statesman and diplomat, who, as a Founding Father, was a principal leader of American independence from Great Britain. He, as well as many others, are used to define the Constitution upon which rests the foundations of American democracy, held so dear by so many (such that one cannot make an amendment [to an Amendment!] regarding, say, gun law…). Therefore, what these men said is terribly important to arguing for what laws and mission statements the US should have.​

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So here is that previous quote in full, with emboldened words as Carrier did in his chapter, prevalent to the shifting in meaning that quoting the whole piece forces:​

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Who composed that army of fine young fellows that was then before my eyes? There were among them Roman Catholics, English Episcopalians, Scotch and American Presbyterians, Methodists, Moravians, Anabaptists, German Lutherans, German Calvinists, Universalists, Arians, Priestleyans, Socinians, Independents, Congregationalists, Horse Protestants, and House Protestants, Deists and Atheists, and Protestants “qui ne croyent rien.” Very few, however, of several of these species; nevertheless, all educated in the general principles of Christianity, and the general principles of English and American liberty.​

Could my answer be understood by any candid reader or hearer, to recommend to all the others the general principles, institutions, or systems of education of the Roman Catholics, or those of the Quakers, or those of the Presbyterians, or those of the Methodists, or those of the Moravians, or those of the Universalists, or those of the Philosophers? No. The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence, were the only principles in which that beautiful assembly of young men could unite, and these principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general principles? I answer, the general principles of Christianity, in which all those sects were united, and the general principles of English and American liberty, in which all those young men united, and which had united all parties in America, in majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her independence.​

Now I will avow, that I then believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature and our terrestrial, mundane system. I could, therefore, safely say, consistently with all my then and present information, that Ibelieved they would never make discoveries in contradiction to these general principles. In favor of these general principles, in philosophy, religion, and government, I could fill sheets of quotations from Frederic of Prussia, from Hume, Gibbon, Bolingbroke, Rousseau, and Voltaire, as well as Newton and Locke; not to mention thousands of divines and philosophers of inferior fame.​

Hopefully you can see the fundamental shift in meaning that is apparent in this larger quote. As Carrier states in his commentary:​

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Notice what he is actually saying. First, Adams is carefully distinguishing his own personal beliefs from any official state principles. But more importantly, he includes atheists in his list of praiseworthy American freedom fighters, and also says even atheist and anti-Christian philosophers (like Voltaire) were, in his view, advocating for the good principles shared by all Christian sects. In other words, Adams is not saying that American was actually founded on Christian principles in the sense usually meant today; rather, Adams is saying America was founded on universal moral principles shared by all good philosophies, even godless philosophies, Christianity included. He then says that it is his own personal opinion that the Christian God so arranged it But again, he is careful to say that this is his own personal belief, not a state doctrine. [p. 183]​

With his own beliefs hinted at here, it is well worth noting that Adams was a Unitarian so his Christian beliefs were very charitable to other worldviews. As Carrier states, he “did not believe in an eternal hell or the divinity of Jesus or even in miracles”. This, then, entirely shifts the paradigm. Those original cobbled-together sentences drawn from three different paragraphs are representative of some serious cherry picking and quote-mining to fulfil the ends: a pro-religionist, pro-Christian governmental system, which is precisely not what John Adams would have wanted (certainly not in the modern way prescribed by many American conservative Christians).​

 

[ding]

How else could Communists Nationalists view it

Attacking America's Christian heritage is #1 in their playbook.

"A people without a heritage are easily persuaded" said the evil Communist Nationalist Karl Marx; NotfooledbyW's mentor and hero.

 

[ding]

How could the founding fathers not have taken umbrage with Austin Cline's "philosophy and logic?"

"Liberation from theism and religion are necessary for social and political liberation." Austin Cline

"..Instead, the goal is to reveal how oppression depends on religious beliefs which should be dispensed with anyway..." Austin Cline

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Austin Cline is a militant atheist like yourself. I can see why you admire him.

Instead, the goal is to reveal how oppression depends on religious beliefs which should be dispensed with anyway.
Austin Cline

"Liberation from theism and religion are necessary for social and political liberation." Austin Cline

Is Austin Cline using philosophy and logic and being truthful against your theology and illogic and record of untruths that you bring to this forum along with your penchant Saint Ding for using militant personal attacks against anyone who doesn’t agree with your white Christian nationalist ideology?

 

[ding]

Is Austin Cline using philosophy and logic and being truthful against your theology and illogic and record of untruths that you bring to this forum along with your penchant Saint Ding for using militant personal attacks against anyone who doesn’t agree with your white Christian nationalist ideology?

I think it's great that you show your true Communist Nationalism colors by supporting Austin Cline's philosophy and logic.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

NotfooledbyW's mentor and hero.

Washington Adams Jefferson Madison Paine Franklin and Allen are my mentors and heroes.

And the greatest heroes of all were the entire founding generation including atheists who rose against European Catholicism and Protestantism and against the idea that the Christian religion is divinely aligned with the state.

 

[ding]

Washington Adams Jefferson Madison Paine Franklin and Allen are my mentors and heroes.

And the greatest heroes of all were the entire founding generation including atheists who rose against European Catholicism and Protestantism and against the idea that the Christian religion is divinely aligned with the state.

George Washington responds...

“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports...In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens...”

“…And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion...reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.”

George Washington, Farewell Address, Sept 17, 1796,
The Will of the People: Readings in American Democracy (Chicago: Great Books Foundation, 2001), 38.

 

[ding]

Washington Adams Jefferson Madison Paine Franklin and Allen are my mentors and heroes.

If that were the case you wouldn't be agreeing with Austin Cline's anti-religion philosophy.

 

[ding]

And the greatest heroes of all were the entire founding generation including atheists who rose against European Catholicism and Protestantism and against the idea that the Christian religion is divinely aligned with the state.

I agree that your heroes were atheists who rose against European Catholicism and Protestantism.

But do you have a list of their names you can share with me? Besides Marx, Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot, etc.?

 

[NotfooledbyW]

You are

Christianity and our founding fathers 240320 {post•461} ding Mar’24 Scaoff: “You are still Communist Nationalist in my eyes.” dvng 240320 Scaoff00461


Christianity and our founding fathers 240321 {post•490}

Washington and Jefferson were not communists as defined in the Holy Bible. I have been to both their homes. Both men acquired a great deal of private property over their historic lifetimes as have I over a not so historic lifetime.

I do not intend to part with my possessions until death do I depart and all those will go to my much younger wife and then to all my kids and grandkids. There is Not a single commie or a born again Christian among the contribution of my seed to the global population.

You know I’m not a believer in Jesus the Son of a three in One DIETY who told his original followers to become communists. So I have no idea why you think I am a communist for believing Americans were given a God given right to not believe in God by our religious but not Christian founding fathers.

All that believed were together, and had all things in common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. (Acts 2:44-45)​

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#nfbw 240321 Vcaoff00490 to Scaoff00461

 

[ding]

Christianity and our founding fathers 240320 {post•461} ding Mar’24 Scaoff: “You are still Communist Nationalist in my eyes.” dvng 240320 Scaoff00461


Christianity and our founding fathers 240321 {post•490}

Washington and Jefferson were not communists as defined in the Holy Bible. I have been to both their homes. Both men acquired a great deal of private property over their historic lifetimes as have I over a not so historic lifetime.

I do not intend to part with my possessions until death do I depart and all those will go to my much younger wife and then to all my kids and grandkids. There is Not a single commie or a born again Christian among the contribution of my seed to the global population.

You know I’m not a believer in Jesus the Son of a three in One DIETY who told his original followers to become communists. So I have no idea why you think I am a communist for believing Americans were given a God given right to not believe in God by our religious but not Christian founding fathers.

All that believed were together, and had all things in common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. (Acts 2:44-45)​

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#nfbw 240321 Vcaoff00490 to Scaoff00461

Don't act like a Communist Nationalist and then you won't be one.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Don't act like a Communist Nationalist and then you won't be one.

Why did you post the following quote and attribute it to Patrick Henry?

This a lie:

America's Christian Heritage 240310 {post•206} ding Mar’24 Sachyz:Patrick Henry "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that his great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." dvng 240310 Sachyz00206

 

[ding]

Why did you post the following quote and attribute it to Patrick Henry?

This a lie:

America's Christian Heritage 240310 {post•206} ding Mar’24 Sachyz:Patrick Henry "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that his great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." dvng 240310 Sachyz00206

Because it seemed that you were trying to deny you were a Communist Nationalist while still acting like one.

The founding fathers would have hated your anti-religion rhetoric.

 

[Billo_Really]

One of the items that I've disagreed with over the years on this board has been the issue relating to our founding fathers and Christianity. For a while now I've not bought into the idea that America was founded as a Christian nation. Besides a select few sermons I catch each week, I also enjoy listening to the weekly podcast, 5 Minutes in Church History. Got around to yesterday's edition and in it I believe is reliable picture of Christianity during the establishment of country, especially in the period during the writing of the Constitution.

The Second Great Awakening Overlook​

An excerpt:

Well, if we look at the 1790s, we see that it was an age of reason, as the book title has it, by Thomas Payne. And at the very beginnings of this young American republic, there was a strong sense of secularism. Historians have documented that church attendance in the decade of the 1790s in America was in the single digits, percentage-wise.

It was not only an age of secularism, it was also an age of deism. These old congregational churches in New England were quickly careening into what was called unitarian universalism, and neither one of those are good doctrines, and put them together, it’s really bad.

In this country, we separate church and state. That is one of the cornerstones of our republic.

The State is neither pro-christuan or anti-christian. That is up to individual citizens to decide for themselves.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Because it seemed that you were trying to deny you were a Communist Nationalist while still acting like one.

In what Post did I act like these early Christians:

All that believed were together, and had all things in common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. (Acts 2:44-45)​

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The founding fathers would have hated your anti-religion rhetoric.

I am more pro-religion than you Saint Ding.

I am a rational theist, as were Washington, Adams, Madison and Jefferson. I am 100% in support of the American civil religion that those founders helped set up in our constitution.

I agree with Washington and Adam’s Freemason idea that all religions are good,

I agree with Adam’s Unitarianism because everyone can be religious without believing in the Divinity of Jesus Christ.

I believe America’s Civil Religion includes every law abiding American whether they are religious or not.

Participation in Americas civil religion merely requires respect for everybody’s religion or non-religion and everything in between without judgment.

Your white Christian nationalism Saint Ding goes against American civil religion.

It is not a valid religion. It is a political ideology meant to impose, one particular religious belief over and above any other, based on lies about what our founding fathers said, and did.

And you are one of that movements greatest liars

 

[ding]

In what Post did I act like these early Christians:

All that believed were together, and had all things in common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. (Acts 2:44-45)​

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I am more pro-religion than you Saint Ding.

I am a rational theist, as were Washington, Adams, Madison and Jefferson. I am 100% in support of the American civil religion that those founders helped set up in our constitution.

I agree with Washington and Adam’s Freemason idea that all religions are good,

I agree with Adam’s Unitarianism because everyone can be religious without believing in the Divinity of Jesus Christ.

I believe America’s Civil Religion includes every law abiding American whether they are religious or not.

Participation in Americas civil religion merely requires respect for everybody’s religion or non-religion and everything in between without judgment.

Your white Christian nationalism Saint Ding goes against American civil religion.

It is not a valid religion. It is a political ideology meant to impose, one particular religious belief over and above any other, based on lies about what our founding fathers said, and did.

And you are one of that movements greatest liars

Spoken like a true Communist Nationalist.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Has anyone actually argued the Founding Fathers didn’t believe in natural rights?

You do not believe in natural rights or freedom from your Catholic Religion for women who become pregnant but do not want to give birth,

The Founding Fathers never intended that American Women would be required to comply with Catholic Religious Doctrinr.

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https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/03/21/life-conception-christian-theology-00147804the recent ruling by the Alabama Supreme Court that classifies frozen embryos created during IVF as human persons.​

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Chief Justice Tom Parker’s opinion in the case, which draws on the Bible, Christian manifestos, theologians such as St. Augustine and Thomas Aquinas and the Reformer John Calvin, is an openly theological document. Parker argues that since life starts at conception, humans, especially lawmakers and judges, are called to implement policies and make decisions that will protect the sanctity of human life, whether in utero or outside it.​

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So it’s easy to think that the premise that life begins at conception is a timeless theological component of Christian belief. But it’s not.​

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The idea that life begins at conception is neither a unanimous belief in the history of Christianity, nor a classic American Protestant doctrine. When Parker writes about protecting the sanctity of life from the moment of conception, he is not carrying on a longstanding Protestant theological tradition by basing his decision on stalwarts of American evangelicalism like Cotton Mather or John Wesley or Jonathan Edwards. Those Protestant forefathers were more likely to believe that abortion, while inadvisable, was not murder until the “quickening” of the child — when the mother feels it move — somewhere near 18 weeks of the pregnancy.​

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Instead, Parker is repeating a political mantra concocted by Republican operatives in the late 20th century in a successful effort to create a conservative Catholic-Protestant voting bloc capable of taking over the GOP — and implementing their religious-political vision throughout the country.​

Pope Francis presides over an event at St Pius V Catholic Parish in Rome. It is in Catholicism that we find the view that life begins at conception. | Andreas Solaro/AFP via Getty Images

In fact, within the lifetimes of many of today’s evangelical Christian believers, their churches either supported abortion rights or were neutral on it. In the 1960s and 1970s, Southern Baptists and other historically conservative Protestant denominations held that abortion was not only permissible, but also should be left to individual choice. In 1968, a group of evangelical leaders from a variety of denominations wrote in a document titled “A Protestant Affirmation on the Control of Human Reproduction” that they could not agree whether or not abortion is sinful outright, but they could agree “about the necessity of it and permissibility for it under certain circumstances.” They even argued that “the preservation of fetal life ... may have to be abandoned to maintain full and secure family life.”​

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I don’t see how you support freedom from religion that even our white Protestant Christian Founding Generation fought for and gave us.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Spoken like a true Communist Nationalist.

You are making that up,

 

[ding]

You do not believe in natural rights or freedom from your Catholic Religion for women who become pregnant but do not want to give birth,

The Founding Fathers never intended that American Women would be required to comply with Catholic Religious Doctrinr.

Zone1 - Christianity and our founding fathers. the recent ruling by the Alabama Supreme Court that classifies frozen embryos created during IVF as human persons.​

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Chief Justice Tom Parker’s opinion in the case, which draws on the Bible, Christian manifestos, theologians such as St. Augustine and Thomas Aquinas and the Reformer John Calvin, is an openly theological document. Parker argues that since life starts at conception, humans, especially lawmakers and judges, are called to implement policies and make decisions that will protect the sanctity of human life, whether in utero or outside it.​

​

So it’s easy to think that the premise that life begins at conception is a timeless theological component of Christian belief. But it’s not.​

​

The idea that life begins at conception is neither a unanimous belief in the history of Christianity, nor a classic American Protestant doctrine. When Parker writes about protecting the sanctity of life from the moment of conception, he is not carrying on a longstanding Protestant theological tradition by basing his decision on stalwarts of American evangelicalism like Cotton Mather or John Wesley or Jonathan Edwards. Those Protestant forefathers were more likely to believe that abortion, while inadvisable, was not murder until the “quickening” of the child — when the mother feels it move — somewhere near 18 weeks of the pregnancy.​

​

Instead, Parker is repeating a political mantra concocted by Republican operatives in the late 20th century in a successful effort to create a conservative Catholic-Protestant voting bloc capable of taking over the GOP — and implementing their religious-political vision throughout the country.​

View attachment 920500

Pope Francis presides over an event at St Pius V Catholic Parish in Rome. It is in Catholicism that we find the view that life begins at conception. | Andreas Solaro/AFP via Getty Images

In fact, within the lifetimes of many of today’s evangelical Christian believers, their churches either supported abortion rights or were neutral on it. In the 1960s and 1970s, Southern Baptists and other historically conservative Protestant denominations held that abortion was not only permissible, but also should be left to individual choice. In 1968, a group of evangelical leaders from a variety of denominations wrote in a document titled “A Protestant Affirmation on the Control of Human Reproduction” that they could not agree whether or not abortion is sinful outright, but they could agree “about the necessity of it and permissibility for it under certain circumstances.” They even argued that “the preservation of fetal life ... may have to be abandoned to maintain full and secure family life.”​

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I don’t see how you support freedom from religion that even our white Protestant Christian Founding Generation fought for and gave us.

You're dying to talk about abortion.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

You're dying to talk about abortion.

I’m talking about the “natural rights” aspect of it. Abortion just happens to be a subject that you have written much about.