Russian Nuclear Submarine Surfaces Off US East Coast

[Mushroom]

I know what hunting submarines is like. I served on a nuclear FBM submarine in the 1980s. When we didn't want to be found, we could not be found. Passive sonar is great, but it relies on the sub making noise.

And I am aware of this, but it also brings the other question.

Were you evading active SONAR? I agree very highly that if faced only with passive, a good boat and crew can evade such a search for a very long time. This is akin to my field, with stealth aircraft. But where instead of active SONAR on the searching ships, you put active RADAR on the aircraft being targeted. It may still be completely invisible to RADAR, but the moment it lights up, everybody knows where it is.

The US tries to never use active SONAR because of this, because it tells the enemy exactly where they are. It is best if the prey you are stalking does not even know where you are, and firing up one can instantly give the submarine a firing solution to then engage them.

And I doubt even the best of US subs can evade a serious search by active SONAR. No more than stealth aircraft can slip into an area heavily covered by RADAR. "Stealth" (in the air or underwater) does not mean "invisible".

 

[Viktor]

Yes, and the problem is what exactly?

Guess what, children. The Soviets did this for decades, from the 1950's until the 1990's.

EVIDENCE????????????????????????????????????

 

[Viktor]

And I am aware of this, but it also brings the other question.

Were you evading active SONAR? I agree very highly that if faced only with passive, a good boat and crew can evade such a search for a very long time. This is akin to my field, with stealth aircraft. But where instead of active SONAR on the searching ships, you put active RADAR on the aircraft being targeted. It may still be completely invisible to RADAR, but the moment it lights up, everybody knows where it is.

The US tries to never use active SONAR because of this, because it tells the enemy exactly where they are. It is best if the prey you are stalking does not even know where you are, and firing up one can instantly give the submarine a firing solution to then engage them.

And I doubt even the best of US subs can evade a serious search by active SONAR. No more than stealth aircraft can slip into an area heavily covered by RADAR. "Stealth" (in the air or underwater) does not mean "invisible".

I don't see any evidence. Are we supposed to take your word for it??? I will not.

 

[WinterBorn]

I don't see any evidence. Are we supposed to take your word for it??? I will not.

Since most of what submarines did is still classified, there is no evidence you can see.

 

[WinterBorn]

I don't see any evidence. Are we supposed to take your word for it??? I will not.

Why not ask Godboy for evidence of his claim that submarines on both sides quietly vanished back in the 1980s? That should be easily shown.

Of course, the fact that no US submarine has been lost since 1968 might make evidence of his claims a bit difficult.

 

[Mushroom]

EVIDENCE????????????????????????????????????

Oh holy hell, are you actually asking for evidence that the Soviets had subs off the US coast during the cold war? This is so childish that I can hardly believe somebody is actually demanding that.

Two nuclear-powered Russian attack submarines have been patrolling off the eastern seaboard of the United States in the first mission of its kind so close to shore in nearly a decade, U.S. officials said on Wednesday.

Russian subs patrol off U.S. East Coast: officials

Two nuclear-powered Russian attack submarines have been patrolling off the eastern seaboard of the United States in the first mission of its kind so close to shore in nearly a decade, U.S. officials said on Wednesday.

www.reuters.com

And of course, many of us still remember "Operation Atrina". When the Soviets laughed as they sent 5 submarines to the US during an active search, and then they lingered for months off the US coast undetected.

In 1987, the Cold war had already gone down in history, but the confrontation of Soviet and American military continued. Held at the time military-sea operation “Atrina” to this day is admired by experts. According to them, the Russian sailors opened anti-submarine defence of NATO “like a tin can”.

Going through unusually warm Sargasso sea and overcome the threat to submarine accumulations of algae, the Soviet submarine came to the East coast of the USA. Some of them were in the South, near New Orleans.

Global News - Global News - Your Window to the World

www.globaldomainsnews.com

As I said, for those of us old enough to remember the Cold War, this crap happened all the time. But tell you what, try to prove to me it never happened. Show me any kind of credible reference that said that US ASW capabilities were so good that the Soviets never dared to do that. Or fly their bombers just a hundred miles or so offshore from the US.

 

[Mushroom]

Of course, the fact that no US submarine has been lost since 1968 might make evidence of his claims a bit difficult.

We have had subs damaged, like in 1975 when one collided with a Soviet sub.

I have known many who worked in subs, and they are among the most closed mouth I have ever met in the military. Even decades after they get out, most tended to have a rather sly sense of humor about their time in the "Silent Service". And I could often tell they were skirting around the edges of what must have been an awesome sea story, but they would never say more.

I still remember sitting around having drinks one night with a guy on a boomer, and he jokingly prompted me to start questioning him. And we (and another guy on attack subs in the 1970s) were both laughing.

"Don't ask me what we cover the hulls with."
"OK John, what do you cover the hulls with?"
"Paint."

"Don't ask me how deep we can go."
"OK John, how deep can you go?"
"In excess of 10 fathoms."
(For those not familiar, a fathom is 6 feet, so they can go deeper than 60 feet)

"Don't ask me how fast we can operate."
"OK John, how fast can you operate?"
"In excess of 5 knots." (just under 6 mph, just over 9 kmh)

We all had a great time, as we were all familiar with that kind of game. When I was at Seal Beach, we did something similar, always saying "I can not confirm or deny the presence of nuclear weapons at Seal Beach Naval Weapon Station". Even though this was 1986, and we knew damned well that the last of the nukes were pulled out in early 1984. But we are encouraged to never lie to civilians, so instead use a "non-answer answer" to help alleviate and confuse the question.

But I agree, no subs were lost. There is just no way in the US to hide that many deaths.

 

[Viktor]

Oh holy hell, are you actually asking for evidence that the Soviets had subs off the US coast during the cold war? This is so childish that I can hardly believe somebody is actually demanding that.

Russian subs patrol off U.S. East Coast: officials

Two nuclear-powered Russian attack submarines have been patrolling off the eastern seaboard of the United States in the first mission of its kind so close to shore in nearly a decade, U.S. officials said on Wednesday.

www.reuters.com

And of course, many of us still remember "Operation Atrina". When the Soviets laughed as they sent 5 submarines to the US during an active search, and then they lingered for months off the US coast undetected.

Global News - Global News - Your Window to the World

www.globaldomainsnews.com

As I said, for those of us old enough to remember the Cold War, this crap happened all the time. But tell you what, try to prove to me it never happened. Show me any kind of credible reference that said that US ASW capabilities were so good that the Soviets never dared to do that. Or fly their bombers just a hundred miles or so offshore from the US.

THE COLD WAR IS OVER AS OF 1990. If this stuff is TOP SEcret, how did you get hold of it to post it here??
Are you revealing top secret info??? I will report your post to the Navy Department.

 

[Mushroom]

THE COLD WAR IS OVER AS OF 1990. If this stuff is TOP SEcret, how did you get hold of it to post it here??
Are you revealing top secret info??? I will report your post to the Navy Department.

I know, this is Cold War 2.0.

And please, now you are just acting like an idiot. But please, go ahead and try to report me for posting historical information about the Soviet submarine program in the 1980's. One that even the Soviet Admirals who planned it made public decades ago.

I am sure NCIS could use a good laugh.

Oh, and guess what? Until 1984 there were nuclear weapons at the Seal Beach Naval Weapon Station. Once again, something I could get arrested for admitting back in say 1985. Even until late 1986, it was illegal for me to admit that and I could have been arrested as official policy was to "neither confirm nor deny". But then in late 1986 the Navy finally admitted that they had removed the nukes, so admitting there were no nukes there was no longer a problem.

 

[HenryBHough]

Russia could take a sub right up the Potomac and the worst that Xiden would do is shit himself and fling it at a the Statue of Liberty in frustration.

 

[WinterBorn]

We have had subs damaged, like in 1975 when one collided with a Soviet sub.

I have known many who worked in subs, and they are among the most closed mouth I have ever met in the military. Even decades after they get out, most tended to have a rather sly sense of humor about their time in the "Silent Service". And I could often tell they were skirting around the edges of what must have been an awesome sea story, but they would never say more.

I still remember sitting around having drinks one night with a guy on a boomer, and he jokingly prompted me to start questioning him. And we (and another guy on attack subs in the 1970s) were both laughing.

"Don't ask me what we cover the hulls with."
"OK John, what do you cover the hulls with?"
"Paint."

"Don't ask me how deep we can go."
"OK John, how deep can you go?"
"In excess of 10 fathoms."
(For those not familiar, a fathom is 6 feet, so they can go deeper than 60 feet)

"Don't ask me how fast we can operate."
"OK John, how fast can you operate?"
"In excess of 5 knots." (just under 6 mph, just over 9 kmh)

We all had a great time, as we were all familiar with that kind of game. When I was at Seal Beach, we did something similar, always saying "I can not confirm or deny the presence of nuclear weapons at Seal Beach Naval Weapon Station". Even though this was 1986, and we knew damned well that the last of the nukes were pulled out in early 1984. But we are encouraged to never lie to civilians, so instead use a "non-answer answer" to help alleviate and confuse the question.

But I agree, no subs were lost. There is just no way in the US to hide that many deaths.

Oh there were accidents and incidents. But no US sub "mysteriously disappeared in the 1980s".

 

[Canon Shooter]

Bullshit if we don't.

If we do, then that's a doctrine which has been adopted since I retired in 2001.

There's literally no reason, whatsoever, to surface a US ballistic missile submarine off the coast of Russia. Not a single one...

 

[Canon Shooter]

I know what hunting submarines is like. I served on a nuclear FBM submarine in the 1980s. When we didn't want to be found, we could not be found. Passive sonar is great, but it relies on the sub making noise.

And you fuckers were pretty much dead silent when you ran on batteries...

 

[Canon Shooter]

He could have the US Navy quietly sink them, like they did back in the 80's. Subs on both sides mysteriously vanished during those days.

Where do you get your information? I'm compelled to ask because it's 100% fantasy.

The US hasn't lost a submarine at sea since June of 1968, when the USS Scorpion was lost in about 10,000 feet of water in the middle of the Atlantic. Prior to that, we lost the USS Thresher in April opf 1963 off the coast of Cape Cod during testing. Those are the last two subs we've lost.

An interesting aside: The government and the Navy were being hard-pressed by several Veteran's groups and insurance companies to find both the Thresher and the Scorpion. And it was also no surprise that the Navy and several environmental groups wanted to know the status of the nuclear reactors on each sub. Unfortunately, the Navy didn't have the proper equipment needed to search for or reach the subs.

Enter Dr. Robert Ballard of the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute.

In the early 1980's, Ballard had asked the Navy to fund the development of the technology needed to search for the RMS Titanic. The Navy was interested in the technology, but only to help find the two lost subs. They couldn't really give a shit about Titanic. Long story short, the Navy gave Ballard the funding he needed and, after finding the two subs, Ballard went out in search of Titanic, which he discovered in June of 1985 using the new technology. The Navy had no interest in connecting the discoveries of the subs to the discovery of the Titanic, simply because the search for the subs was classified Top Secret.

In July of 1986, I was stationed aboard the USS Ortolan (ASR-22) in Charleston, SC, when we were tasked to meet the Atklantis II, out of Woods Hole, and Dr. Ballard. We spent about a week on site, with the Titanic resting on the bottom more than two miles below us. There were eight of us who were selected to "cross deck" to the Atlantis II, which allowed us to see, first hand, what the Atlantis II and the deep submersible Alvin were doing and finding. If you've ever seen the National Geographic special on the Titanic, we were able to view all of that raw footage. It was a pretty fascinating thing, and definitely a highlight of my Naval career.

One of my favorite momentoes from my career is an 8oz styrofoam coffee cup (about 4" tall). On one side of the cup I wrote my rate at the time (STG2), my last name (erased in this photo), "ALVIN'S DIVE TO THE TITANIC". On the other side I wrote the latitude and longitude of the wreck: 41° 46' LAT 50° 14' LONG.

A bunch of us then took our cups and placed them in a net laundry bag and tied the bag to the exterior of Alvin (away from any critical components). Alvin then went to Titanic. Because of the depth all of the air within the styrofoam was pressed out. Once that occurred, I was left with what you see here. I included the quarter in these photos so you could see just how small it ended up being. It's just slightly smaller than a shot glass:

 

[Canon Shooter]

And I am aware of this, but it also brings the other question.

Were you evading active SONAR? I agree very highly that if faced only with passive, a good boat and crew can evade such a search for a very long time. This is akin to my field, with stealth aircraft. But where instead of active SONAR on the searching ships, you put active RADAR on the aircraft being targeted. It may still be completely invisible to RADAR, but the moment it lights up, everybody knows where it is.

The US tries to never use active SONAR because of this, because it tells the enemy exactly where they are. It is best if the prey you are stalking does not even know where you are, and firing up one can instantly give the submarine a firing solution to then engage them.

And I doubt even the best of US subs can evade a serious search by active SONAR. No more than stealth aircraft can slip into an area heavily covered by RADAR. "Stealth" (in the air or underwater) does not mean "invisible".

In 20 years I used active SONAR exactly four times.

Evading active SONAR isn't difficult. Temperature changes in the water at depth actually cause the sound wave to reflect back towards the surface. This is very much an over-simplified explanation, but If the water is the same temperature at 150' as it is on the surface, then you have a layer depth of 150'. Unless you set your equipment correctly, you're not going to punch through that layer depth. Your sound wave will only ever go as deep as 150'. All a sub skipper has to do is dive below that depth and it's unlikely the surface SONAR would ever see him, active or not. It would take one of various modes (depending on the system; I worked with the AN/SQS-53C) to penetrate the layer depth...

 

[eagle1462010]

Can you name one US sub that "mysteriously vanished" back in the 1980s? Or even one US sub that sank in the 1980s?

I could name some crap that went on but then id have to kill ya.

You dont have the need to know.

 

[Mushroom]

A bunch of us then took our cups and placed them in a net laundry bag and tied the bag to the exterior of Alvin (away from any critical components). Alvin then went to Titanic. Because of the depth all of the air within the styrofoam was pressed out. Once that occurred, I was left with what you see here. I included the quarter in these photos so you could see just how small it ended up being. It's just slightly smaller than a shot glass:

If you ever go to Vallejo, there is a Maritime Museum that has a bunch of those. Most subs actually have a small compartment in the sail for doing pressure experiments, but often the crew will put in styrofoam objects so make as souvenirs like that. The museum has dozens of them on display, and it is quite impressive.

 

[Canon Shooter]

Oh there were accidents and incidents. But no US sub "mysteriously disappeared in the 1980s".

I was stationed on the USS Chandler (DDG-996) in 1984, deployed to the Western Pacific with the US Kitty Hawk Battle Group in the Sea of Japan.

A Russian sub, K-314 (a Soviet Victor I class attack submarine) surfaced a little too aggressively and was hit by the Kitty Hawk.

This was at the height of the Cold War. Good times, good times...

 

[Canon Shooter]

If you ever go to Vallejo, there is a Maritime Museum that has a bunch of those. Most subs actually have a small compartment in the sail for doing pressure experiments, but often the crew will put in styrofoam objects so make as souvenirs like that. The museum has dozens of them on display, and it is quite impressive.

Hehehehe... that's pretty cool.

I haven't been to Vallejo in over 15 years but, if I ever go back, I'll check it out!

 

[Mushroom]

Temperature changes in the water at depth actually cause the sound wave to reflect back towards the surface.

Am a diver, so am familiar with thermoclines. And yes I know of that capability, but I also know that most subs would stay well away from an active SONAR if they can, just on the chance they might be detected.

During WWII some ships doing convoys fastened what were essentially SONAR emitters but with nothing to pick up the returns. And there was a reduction of attacks, as the U-boats knew what that was and did not want to take a chance on being detected. And I know that we do have SONAR units that can dive, but the depth they reach is classified.