Quick: Name a "Democracy"

[TemplarKormac]

Federalist No. 10

The Federalist #10

"In the extent and proper structure of the Union, therefore, we behold a republican remedy for the diseases most incident to republican government. And according to the degree of pleasure and pride we feel in being republicans, ought to be our zeal in cherishing the spirit and supporting the character of Federalists."

James Madison, 1787

 

[TemplarKormac]

The misconception of "democratic republic" is debunked in one simple way:

A republic and a democracy are identical in every aspect except one. In a republic the sovereignty is in each individual person. In a democracy the sovereignty is in the group.

Carbine should understand this fully before he opens his mouth again.

 

[TemplarKormac]

"By the constitution, a republican form of government is guarantied to every state in the Union, and the distinguishing feature of that form is the right of the people to choose their own officers for governmental administration, and pass their own laws in virtue of the legislative power reposed in representative bodies, whose legitimate acts may be said to be those of the people themselves; but, while the people are thus the source of political power, their governments, national and state, have been limited by written constitutions, and they have themselves thereby set bounds to their own power, as against the sudden impulses of mere majorities. "

Duncan v. McCall, 139 U.S. 449, 11 S.Ct. 573, 35 L.Ed. 219(1891)

 

[peach174]

Since you're willing to cite wikipedia, so am I:

A democratic republic is a country that is both a republic and a democracy.

Democratic republic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Feel free to prove that definition invalid.

Sure.

Article 4 Section 4 of the US Constitution

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

Your post proves nothing because you cannot prove that democracy and republic are mutually exclusive.

As long as it remains unrefuted that a nation can exist as both a democracy and a republic,

you have lost this argument.

But it is and says so in our Constitution.
If the founders wanted us to be Democracy and a Republic, the Constitution would have said ; The Untied States shall guaranteed to every State in the Union a Democratic Republican form of Government.

Just because other Nations have Democratic Republics,does not mean that we are one of those types.
We are guaranteed a Republican form of Government not a mixture of the two.

 

[Edgetho]

Every minority right in this country that is legally protected is so because majority made it so.

The slaves did not free themselves. It took majority rule to declare them free under the law.

I apologize for picking on you.

Clearly, you are handicapped

If the Constitution is what makes us NOT a democracy, because it protects minorities from the majority...

1. why was slavery legal for the first 80 years of our constitutional republic?

2. why were women denied the right to vote for the first 130 years of our constitutional republic?

We are a form of 'democracy' in that democracy means a government by the people.

But we are not a democracy as a Proper Noun-Democracy.

You're getting too caught up in word games trying not to lose an argument.

We are a (proper noun) Republic, which makes our style of government part of the more generic 'democracy' as opposed to a Monarchy, an Oligarchy, socialist, fascist, dictatorship, etc.

You think this is tough, try defining socialism.

Try defining a system that dimocraps secretly pray for, but is something that has never worked, not one time, in all its incarnations -- Ever. In history. It has failed every single time it has ever been tried, so naturally, there is no basis for comparison.

Then we can argue about whether or not social democracies and democratic socialism and National Socialism and Stalinism and Maoists and Jacobins and... This can be fun.

"It comes from a very ancient democracy, you see...."
"You mean, it comes from a world of lizards?"
"No," said Ford, who by this time was a little more rational and coherent than he had been, having finally had the coffee forced down him, "nothing so simple. Nothing anything like so straightforward. On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people."
"Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy."
"I did," said Ford. "It is."
"So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't the people get rid of the lizards?"
"It honestly doesn't occur to them," said Ford. "They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates to the government they want."
"You mean they actually vote for the lizards?"
"Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course."
"But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"
"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in."

 

[peach174]

Your post proves nothing because you cannot prove that democracy and republic are mutually exclusive.

As long as it remains unrefuted that a nation can exist as both a democracy and a republic,

you have lost this argument.

I didn't lose anything, Carbine. The founders acknowledged the existence of a Republic when they drafted the Constitution.

More acknowledgements of this being a Republic:

“The future of this republic is in the hands of the American voter”

-Dwight D. Eisenhower

"“That book [Bible], sir, is the rock on which our republic rests.”

-Andrew Jackson

“A democracy is as really a republic as on oak a tree, or a temple a building”

-John Adams

“Our constitution works. Our great republic is a government of laws, not of men.”

-Gerald R. Ford

“The hopes of the Republic cannot forever tolerate either undeserved poverty or self-serving wealth.”

-Franklin D. Roosevelt

All these quotes you're posting to supposedly prove your point are useless because they are dependent on the absolutely false premise that a republic cannot be a democracy.

That is simply wrong.

None of us are saying that a Republic can not be a Democracy.
We are saying that America is not mixture of the two.

We have individual freedom, not group or collective freedom.

 

[expatriate]

This whole thread is akin to theologians arguing for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Six pages of silliness. PC is good for perpetrating such useless mediocrity.

 

[NYcarbineer]

I didn't lose anything, Carbine. The founders acknowledged the existence of a Republic when they drafted the Constitution.

More acknowledgements of this being a Republic:

“The future of this republic is in the hands of the American voter”

-Dwight D. Eisenhower

"“That book [Bible], sir, is the rock on which our republic rests.”

-Andrew Jackson

“A democracy is as really a republic as on oak a tree, or a temple a building”

-John Adams

“Our constitution works. Our great republic is a government of laws, not of men.”

-Gerald R. Ford

“The hopes of the Republic cannot forever tolerate either undeserved poverty or self-serving wealth.”

-Franklin D. Roosevelt

All these quotes you're posting to supposedly prove your point are useless because they are dependent on the absolutely false premise that a republic cannot be a democracy.

That is simply wrong.

None of us are saying that a Republic can not be a Democracy.
We are saying that America is not mixture of the two.

We have individual freedom, not group or collective freedom.

Well, no some of you are saying exactly that.

What is 'group freedom' supposed to mean?

 

[NYcarbineer]

No. I'm saying that our form of government is a republic. It is termed as such in the Constitution, and that's how it will remain. Elections are something akin to a representative democracy. The two work hand in hand to temper one another.

Since you're willing to cite wikipedia, so am I:

A democratic republic is a country that is both a republic and a democracy.

Democratic republic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Feel free to prove that definition invalid.

Sure.

Article 4 Section 4 of the US Constitution

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

And Jefferson said, in 1816,

"governments are republican only in proportion as they embody the will of their people, and execute it."

Democracy by definition is 'rule by the people', demo- and -cracy.

Jefferson is saying that 'republican' is synonymous with 'democratic'; he is saying how republican a government is depends on how democratic it is.

Thus democracy and republic are in no way mutually exclusive.

 

[NYcarbineer]

"By the constitution, a republican form of government is guarantied to every state in the Union, and the distinguishing feature of that form is the right of the people to choose their own officers for governmental administration, and pass their own laws in virtue of the legislative power reposed in representative bodies, whose legitimate acts may be said to be those of the people themselves; but, while the people are thus the source of political power, their governments, national and state, have been limited by written constitutions, and they have themselves thereby set bounds to their own power, as against the sudden impulses of mere majorities. "

Duncan v. McCall, 139 U.S. 449, 11 S.Ct. 573, 35 L.Ed. 219(1891)

A Constitution is nothing more than the supreme law of the land. In a representative democracy,

the People, through their elected representatives, choose what is or isn't in the Constitution.

Majority rule makes those determinations. All rights of minorities protected by the Constitution were put in place by votes that required some form of majority support to be put in place.

That is democracy in action.

 

[peach174]

All these quotes you're posting to supposedly prove your point are useless because they are dependent on the absolutely false premise that a republic cannot be a democracy.

That is simply wrong.

None of us are saying that a Republic can not be a Democracy.
We are saying that America is not mixture of the two.

We have individual freedom, not group or collective freedom.

Well, no some of you are saying exactly that.

What is 'group freedom' supposed to mean?

No you are interpreting it that way.
Where did any of us say that a nation can not have a Democratic Republican form of government?
We didn't. We did say that we are not one of those types of Nations.

Group Freedom-
Collectivism, like most lefties think.
Collectivism is a basic cultural element that exists as the reverse of individualism in human nature.

 

[numan]

'
How supplely you siblings of mental chaos confuse words and forms with realities !!!

The United States has the form of a republic.

It is ever and anon called a "democracy."

In reality, it is a totalitarian, militaristic, National Security State, dedicated to servicing Rich and Powerful Special Interests, both foreign and domestic. It exploits the people of the USA as much as it dares, and uses intense and overpowering propaganda and brainwashing to confuse the proles and induce them to consent to their own exploitation and oppression.

It's not hard to see, if you take off your blinders, turn down the noise, and look around you.

.

 

[peach174]

'
How supplely you siblings of mental chaos confuse words and forms with realities !!!

The United States has the form of a republic.

It is ever and anon called a "democracy."

In reality, it is a totalitarian, militaristic, National Security State, dedicated to servicing Rich and Powerful Special Interests, both foreign and domestic. It exploits the people of the USA as much as it dares, and uses intense and overpowering propaganda and brainwashing to confuse the proles and induce them to consent to their own exploitation and oppression.

It's not hard to see, if you take off your blinders, turn down the noise, and look around you.

.

And it is exactly why we have to get the Progressives out of both Parities, because they are the ones who the people have elected, that have turned it into what we have now.
The question is, how to we inform the uninformed voters about it?
Especially the useful brainwashed idiots.

 

[R.C. Christian]

'
How supplely you siblings of mental chaos confuse words and forms with realities !!!

The United States has the form of a republic.

It is ever and anon called a "democracy."

In reality, it is a totalitarian, militaristic, National Security State, dedicated to servicing Rich and Powerful Special Interests, both foreign and domestic. It exploits the people of the USA as much as it dares, and uses intense and overpowering propaganda and brainwashing to confuse the proles and induce them to consent to their own exploitation and oppression.

It's not hard to see, if you take off your blinders, turn down the noise, and look around you.

.

Well stated.

It's hard, however, for some to separate themselves from visions of their grand fathers storming Normandy beaches, or even Saipan. It's also difficult to admit that more American soldiers kill themselves these days than are killed in combat. They do it for many reasons but I suspect it has a lot to do with the fact that they've come to the realize they were sent on a fool's errand and nobody, especially their sorry government, gives a rat's ass about what they did. I do, but I'm nobody. I feel their misery however, and I'm deeply burdened by it.

 

[konradv]

“All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will, to be rightful, must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal laws must protect, and to violate which would be oppression.”

-Thomas Jefferson in his first inaugural address, March 4, 1801

TJ, leader of the Democratic-Republican Party!

Negged for trolling. My name isn't "TJ" either. Grow up.

God you're a douchebag. What makes you think, "TJ" refers to you? Totally immature, IMO. At least I know I've hit a nerve. Can't handle a little debate, so you have act like a wuss.

 

[R.C. Christian]

TJ, leader of the Democratic-Republican Party!

Negged for trolling. My name isn't "TJ" either. Grow up.

God you're a douchebag. What makes you think, "TJ" refers to you? Totally immature, IMO. At least I know I've hit a nerve. Can't handle a little debate, so you have act like a wuss.

OMG, not negative rep! You gonna cry next sweetheart? ROFLMAO.

 

[TemplarKormac]

It has become apparent that Carbine cannot read worth a damn. Our constitution defines our government as a republic, so therefore it is so. No matter how badly he wants this to be a democracy or a hybrid of the two, it isn't.

 

[TemplarKormac]

TJ, leader of the Democratic-Republican Party!

Negged for trolling. My name isn't "TJ" either. Grow up.

God you're a douchebag. What makes you think, "TJ" refers to you? Totally immature, IMO. At least I know I've hit a nerve. Can't handle a little debate, so you have act like a wuss.

You didn't hit anything, except rock bottom.

 

[Gardener]

Yes, the USA is a Republic.

Just like North Korea, China, Cuba, Iran, Venezuela, Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, and Tito's Yugoslavia.

So what? Is that supposed to be mean something special?

What's important is that we have a Constitution and a bi-cameral legislature that decides laws and rules by democratic vote and are elected by democratic vote by The People.

All these red herrings about the USA being a Republic and not a Democracy are ignorant and pointless.

 

[NYcarbineer]

I didn't lose anything, Carbine. The founders acknowledged the existence of a Republic when they drafted the Constitution.

More acknowledgements of this being a Republic:

“The future of this republic is in the hands of the American voter”

-Dwight D. Eisenhower

"“That book [Bible], sir, is the rock on which our republic rests.”

-Andrew Jackson

“A democracy is as really a republic as on oak a tree, or a temple a building”

-John Adams

“Our constitution works. Our great republic is a government of laws, not of men.”

-Gerald R. Ford

“The hopes of the Republic cannot forever tolerate either undeserved poverty or self-serving wealth.”

-Franklin D. Roosevelt

All these quotes you're posting to supposedly prove your point are useless because they are dependent on the absolutely false premise that a republic cannot be a democracy.

That is simply wrong.

You say it's wrong, but you cannot prove me wrong. Come on, hotshot, you were all balls just a few minutes ago.

Is this like your Obama is guilty until proven innocent routine?

You're wrong because of common knowledge. You're wrong because every credible definition of democracy allows for it to be applied to a republic.

You're wrong because there is no evidence to support your claim and the weight of all other evidence on the side of disagreeing with you.