Quick: Name a "Democracy"

[Luddly Neddite]

The United States was never set up to be a democracy but a Republic. Even Ben Franklin knew it wouldn't last forever. It would eventually succumb to a corrupt people who would elect corrupt leaders.

Republics can be democracies. They are called democratic republics.

Why is every fucking conservative on the planet too ignorant to understand that simple concept?

They also can't understand this basic truism.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Sure.

Article 4 Section 4 of the US Constitution

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

Your post proves nothing because you cannot prove that democracy and republic are mutually exclusive.

As long as it remains unrefuted that a nation can exist as both a democracy and a republic,

you have lost this argument.

But it is and says so in our Constitution.
If the founders wanted us to be Democracy and a Republic, the Constitution would have said ; The Untied States shall guaranteed to every State in the Union a Democratic Republican form of Government.

Just because other Nations have Democratic Republics,does not mean that we are one of those types.
We are guaranteed a Republican form of Government not a mixture of the two.

A Republic that is democratic is a Democracy by definition. If you want argue that our system of government is not democratic,

go ahead, make that argument.

Here are a list of definitions of democracy you are welcome to prove cannot be applied to the US government:

1. 1a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority

b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections

(Merriam/Webster)

2. government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.

(dictionary.com)

3. government by the people or their elected representatives

(Collins English Dictionary)

4. a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives:

(Oxford Dictionary)

5. a political regime where the people exerce sovereignty themselves, with no intermediate representative organ (direct democracy), or through intermediary representatives (representative democracy)"

(La Petite LaRousse) ...it's a dictionary...

That should keep you busy.

lol

 

[TemplarKormac]

All of your bs is countered, Carbine:

“We are a Republican Government. Real liberty is never found in despotism or in the extremes of Democracy.”

-Alexander Hamilton

 

[Gardener]

In the 18th century democracy was a bad thing.

But today, in the 21st century, democracy is what protects us from Hitler and Stalin.

 

[TemplarKormac]

All these quotes you're posting to supposedly prove your point are useless because they are dependent on the absolutely false premise that a republic cannot be a democracy.

That is simply wrong.

You say it's wrong, but you cannot prove me wrong. Come on, hotshot, you were all balls just a few minutes ago.

1. Is this like your Obama is guilty until proven innocent routine?

2. You're wrong because of common knowledge. You're wrong because every credible definition of democracy allows for it to be applied to a republic.

3. You're wrong because there is no evidence to support your claim and the weight of all other evidence on the side of disagreeing with you.

1. The same routine you pulled with Zimmerman? Next.

2. I'm wrong because you want me to be, not because you can disprove me.

3. The Constitution is my evidence, logic my ally, and rationality my defender. You have nothing but delusions, dictionaries and emotions to drive your flawed arguments.

Article 4 Section 4 says that we are guaranteed a Republican form of government. Now I don't know why you are so thick headed Carbine, but the reality is, the Constitution disagrees with you.

Black's Law Dictionary:

Republican government. One in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the people and are exercised by the people, either directly, or through representatives chosen by the people, to whom those powers are specially delegated.

Democracy. That form of government in which the sovereign power resides in and is exercised by the whole body of free citizens directly or indirectly through a system of representation, as distinguished from a monarchy, aristocracy, or oligarchy.

"The deliberations of the Constitutional Convention of 1787 were held in strict secrecy. Consequently, anxious citizens gathered outside Independence Hall when the proceedings ended in order to learn what had been produced behind closed doors. The answer was provided immediately. A Mrs. Powel of Philadelphia asked Benjamin Franklin, “Well, Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?” With no hesitation whatsoever, Franklin responded, “A republic, if you can keep it.”

-Benjamin Franklin

Your argument is flawed. Stop embarrassing yourself.

 

[NYcarbineer]

The United States was never set up to be a democracy but a Republic. Even Ben Franklin knew it wouldn't last forever. It would eventually succumb to a corrupt people who would elect corrupt leaders.

Republics can be democracies. They are called democratic republics.

Why is every fucking conservative on the planet too ignorant to understand that simple concept?

They also can't understand this basic truism.

Believing that the United States is not a democracy is just one of those common myths that has entrenched itself in the big book of 'Things that aren't true even though lots of people think they are',

aka old wives' tales.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Republics can be democracies. They are called democratic republics.

Why is every fucking conservative on the planet too ignorant to understand that simple concept?

They also can't understand this basic truism.

Believing that the United States is not a democracy is just one of those common myths that has entrenched itself in the big book of 'Things that aren't true even though lots of people think they are',

aka old wives' tales.

Prove that we are a democracy. Prove it empirically. You can't can you? The whole of history disagrees with you. People like Alexander Hamilton loathed the idea of a democracy, as well as Benjamin Franklin and John Adams. Yet you continue to believe a lie. I'm sorry, that's the worst form of intellectual dishonesty this side of Einstein.

 

[NYcarbineer]

You say it's wrong, but you cannot prove me wrong. Come on, hotshot, you were all balls just a few minutes ago.

1. Is this like your Obama is guilty until proven innocent routine?

2. You're wrong because of common knowledge. You're wrong because every credible definition of democracy allows for it to be applied to a republic.

3. You're wrong because there is no evidence to support your claim and the weight of all other evidence on the side of disagreeing with you.

1. The same routine you pulled with Zimmerman? Next.

2. I'm wrong because you want me to be, not because you can disprove me.

3. The Constitution is my evidence, logic my ally, and rationality my defender. You have nothing but delusions, dictionaries and emotions to drive your flawed arguments.

Article 4 Section 4 says that we are guaranteed a Republican form of government. Now I don't know why you are so thick headed Carbine, but the reality is, the Constitution disagrees with you.

Black's Law Dictionary:

Republican government. One in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the people and are exercised by the people, either directly, or through representatives chosen by the people, to whom those powers are specially delegated.

Democracy. That form of government in which the sovereign power resides in and is exercised by the whole body of free citizens directly or indirectly through a system of representation, as distinguished from a monarchy, aristocracy, or oligarchy.

.

So we don't have a form of government in which the sovereign power resides in the people,

indirectly through a system of representation?

Are you serious?

That is EXACTLY what we have. You've proven me right. Thank you.

It's hilarious that you posted 2 definitions that say effectively the same thing simply worded differently...

...best laugh of the day.

 

[NYcarbineer]

They also can't understand this basic truism.

Believing that the United States is not a democracy is just one of those common myths that has entrenched itself in the big book of 'Things that aren't true even though lots of people think they are',

aka old wives' tales.

Prove that we are a democracy. Prove it empirically. You can't can you? The whole of history disagrees with you. People like Alexander Hamilton loathed the idea of a democracy, as well as Benjamin Franklin and John Adams. Yet you continue to believe a lie. I'm sorry, that's the worst form of intellectual dishonesty this side of Einstein.

It was proven with your own chosen definition that you posted:

Democracy. That form of government in which the sovereign power resides in and is exercised by the whole body of free citizens directly or indirectly through a system of representation, as distinguished from a monarchy, aristocracy, or oligarchy.

That is what we have. A government of the people, exercised indirectly by a system of representation.

 

[TemplarKormac]

1. Is this like your Obama is guilty until proven innocent routine?

2. You're wrong because of common knowledge. You're wrong because every credible definition of democracy allows for it to be applied to a republic.

3. You're wrong because there is no evidence to support your claim and the weight of all other evidence on the side of disagreeing with you.

1. The same routine you pulled with Zimmerman? Next.

2. I'm wrong because you want me to be, not because you can disprove me.

3. The Constitution is my evidence, logic my ally, and rationality my defender. You have nothing but delusions, dictionaries and emotions to drive your flawed arguments.

Article 4 Section 4 says that we are guaranteed a Republican form of government. Now I don't know why you are so thick headed Carbine, but the reality is, the Constitution disagrees with you.

Black's Law Dictionary:

Republican government. One in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the people and are exercised by the people, either directly, or through representatives chosen by the people, to whom those powers are specially delegated.

Democracy. That form of government in which the sovereign power resides in and is exercised by the whole body of free citizens directly or indirectly through a system of representation, as distinguished from a monarchy, aristocracy, or oligarchy.

.

So we don't have a form of government in which the sovereign power resides in the people,

indirectly through a system of representation?

Are you serious?

That is EXACTLY what we have. You've proven me right. Thank you.

It's hilarious that you posted 2 definitions that say effectively the same thing simply worded differently...

...best laugh of the day.

Yes, twisting the definitions. Look at them again. Laugh all you want, you're still wrong. Absolutely pathetic, Carbine.

Then refresh yourself:

DEMOCRACY:
A government of the masses. Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of "direct" expression. Results in mobocracy. Attitude toward property is communistic--negating property rights. Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate, whether is be based upon deliberation or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences. Results in demogogism, license, agitation, discontent, anarchy.

REPUBLIC:
Authority is derived through the election by the people of public officials best fitted to represent them. Attitude toward law is the administration of justice in accord with fixed principles and established evidence, with a strict regard to consequences. A greater number of citizens and extent of territory may be brought within its compass. Avoids the dangerous extreme of either tyranny or mobocracy. Results in statesmanship, liberty, reason, justice, contentment, and progress. Is the "standard form" of government throughout the world.

(Angelo Cobrasci, Founder ~ Defenders of Freedom)

How many times must I beat this into your thick skull, Carbine?

Once more:

A Republic is representative government ruled by law (the Constitution). A democracy is direct government ruled by the majority (mob rule).

 

[TemplarKormac]

Believing that the United States is not a democracy is just one of those common myths that has entrenched itself in the big book of 'Things that aren't true even though lots of people think they are',

aka old wives' tales.

Prove that we are a democracy. Prove it empirically. You can't can you? The whole of history disagrees with you. People like Alexander Hamilton loathed the idea of a democracy, as well as Benjamin Franklin and John Adams. Yet you continue to believe a lie. I'm sorry, that's the worst form of intellectual dishonesty this side of Einstein.

It was proven with your own chosen definition that you posted:

Democracy. That form of government in which the sovereign power resides in and is exercised by the whole body of free citizens directly or indirectly through a system of representation, as distinguished from a monarchy, aristocracy, or oligarchy.

That is what we have. A government of the people, exercised indirectly by a system of representation.

Guess again!

 

[NYcarbineer]

1. The same routine you pulled with Zimmerman? Next.

2. I'm wrong because you want me to be, not because you can disprove me.

3. The Constitution is my evidence, logic my ally, and rationality my defender. You have nothing but delusions, dictionaries and emotions to drive your flawed arguments.

Article 4 Section 4 says that we are guaranteed a Republican form of government. Now I don't know why you are so thick headed Carbine, but the reality is, the Constitution disagrees with you.

Black's Law Dictionary:

Republican government. One in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the people and are exercised by the people, either directly, or through representatives chosen by the people, to whom those powers are specially delegated.

Democracy. That form of government in which the sovereign power resides in and is exercised by the whole body of free citizens directly or indirectly through a system of representation, as distinguished from a monarchy, aristocracy, or oligarchy.

.

So we don't have a form of government in which the sovereign power resides in the people,

indirectly through a system of representation?

Are you serious?

That is EXACTLY what we have. You've proven me right. Thank you.

It's hilarious that you posted 2 definitions that say effectively the same thing simply worded differently...

...best laugh of the day.

Yes, twisting the definitions. Look at them again. Laugh all you want, you're still wrong. Absolutely pathetic, Carbine.

Then refresh yourself:

DEMOCRACY:
A government of the masses. Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of "direct" expression. Results in mobocracy. Attitude toward property is communistic--negating property rights. Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate, whether is be based upon deliberation or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences. Results in demogogism, license, agitation, discontent, anarchy.

REPUBLIC:
Authority is derived through the election by the people of public officials best fitted to represent them. Attitude toward law is the administration of justice in accord with fixed principles and established evidence, with a strict regard to consequences. A greater number of citizens and extent of territory may be brought within its compass. Avoids the dangerous extreme of either tyranny or mobocracy. Results in statesmanship, liberty, reason, justice, contentment, and progress. Is the "standard form" of government throughout the world.

(Angelo Cobrasci, Founder ~ Defenders of Freedom)

How many times must I beat this into your thick skull, Carbine?

Once more:

A Republic is representative government ruled by law (the Constitution). A democracy is direct government ruled by the majority (mob rule).

That is simply idiocy. Representative democracy is not direct democracy, but it is still democracy...

...you proved that with your own post.

 

[NYcarbineer]

1. The same routine you pulled with Zimmerman? Next.

2. I'm wrong because you want me to be, not because you can disprove me.

3. The Constitution is my evidence, logic my ally, and rationality my defender. You have nothing but delusions, dictionaries and emotions to drive your flawed arguments.

Article 4 Section 4 says that we are guaranteed a Republican form of government. Now I don't know why you are so thick headed Carbine, but the reality is, the Constitution disagrees with you.

Black's Law Dictionary:

Republican government. One in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the people and are exercised by the people, either directly, or through representatives chosen by the people, to whom those powers are specially delegated.

Democracy. That form of government in which the sovereign power resides in and is exercised by the whole body of free citizens directly or indirectly through a system of representation, as distinguished from a monarchy, aristocracy, or oligarchy.

.

So we don't have a form of government in which the sovereign power resides in the people,

indirectly through a system of representation?

Are you serious?

That is EXACTLY what we have. You've proven me right. Thank you.

It's hilarious that you posted 2 definitions that say effectively the same thing simply worded differently...

...best laugh of the day.

Yes, twisting the definitions. Look at them again. Laugh all you want, you're still wrong. Absolutely pathetic, Carbine.

Then refresh yourself:

DEMOCRACY:
A government of the masses. Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of "direct" expression. Results in mobocracy. Attitude toward property is communistic--negating property rights. Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate, whether is be based upon deliberation or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences. Results in demogogism, license, agitation, discontent, anarchy.

REPUBLIC:
Authority is derived through the election by the people of public officials best fitted to represent them. Attitude toward law is the administration of justice in accord with fixed principles and established evidence, with a strict regard to consequences. A greater number of citizens and extent of territory may be brought within its compass. Avoids the dangerous extreme of either tyranny or mobocracy. Results in statesmanship, liberty, reason, justice, contentment, and progress. Is the "standard form" of government throughout the world.

(Angelo Cobrasci, Founder ~ Defenders of Freedom)

How many times must I beat this into your thick skull, Carbine?

Once more:

A Republic is representative government ruled by law (the Constitution). A democracy is direct government ruled by the majority (mob rule).

Seriously, what part of

directly or indirectly through a system of representation,

don't you understand? That was from YOUR definition of democracy. Are you denying that we have a system of representation, or what?

 

[TemplarKormac]

So we don't have a form of government in which the sovereign power resides in the people,

indirectly through a system of representation?

Are you serious?

That is EXACTLY what we have. You've proven me right. Thank you.

It's hilarious that you posted 2 definitions that say effectively the same thing simply worded differently...

...best laugh of the day.

Yes, twisting the definitions. Look at them again. Laugh all you want, you're still wrong. Absolutely pathetic, Carbine.

Then refresh yourself:

DEMOCRACY:
A government of the masses. Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of "direct" expression. Results in mobocracy. Attitude toward property is communistic--negating property rights. Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate, whether is be based upon deliberation or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences. Results in demogogism, license, agitation, discontent, anarchy.

REPUBLIC:
Authority is derived through the election by the people of public officials best fitted to represent them. Attitude toward law is the administration of justice in accord with fixed principles and established evidence, with a strict regard to consequences. A greater number of citizens and extent of territory may be brought within its compass. Avoids the dangerous extreme of either tyranny or mobocracy. Results in statesmanship, liberty, reason, justice, contentment, and progress. Is the "standard form" of government throughout the world.

(Angelo Cobrasci, Founder ~ Defenders of Freedom)

How many times must I beat this into your thick skull, Carbine?

Once more:

A Republic is representative government ruled by law (the Constitution). A democracy is direct government ruled by the majority (mob rule).

That is simply idiocy. Representative democracy is not direct democracy, but it is still democracy...

...you proved that with your own post.

Haha, look at you! You will disagree with me no matter what. Give me direct proof to back up your claim. The concept of majority rule and minority rights comes into play, as one of the key differences between a republic and a democracy. In a democracy the majority has absolute power, law is irrelevant, and it has the ability to impose itself on the minority. Here, the minority has no rights, or protection from the majority whatsoever.

In a republic, the majority is tempered. It cannot take away the most important and inalienable rights from the minority. We are a government of law, not of mob rule. Our form of representation and election is determined via the fiat of law. If we were to have your form of government, we can kiss individual liberty goodbye.

Democracy vs Republic - Difference and Comparison | Diffen

 

[TemplarKormac]

So we don't have a form of government in which the sovereign power resides in the people,

indirectly through a system of representation?

Are you serious?

That is EXACTLY what we have. You've proven me right. Thank you.

It's hilarious that you posted 2 definitions that say effectively the same thing simply worded differently...

...best laugh of the day.

Yes, twisting the definitions. Look at them again. Laugh all you want, you're still wrong. Absolutely pathetic, Carbine.

Then refresh yourself:

DEMOCRACY:
A government of the masses. Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of "direct" expression. Results in mobocracy. Attitude toward property is communistic--negating property rights. Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate, whether is be based upon deliberation or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences. Results in demogogism, license, agitation, discontent, anarchy.

REPUBLIC:
Authority is derived through the election by the people of public officials best fitted to represent them. Attitude toward law is the administration of justice in accord with fixed principles and established evidence, with a strict regard to consequences. A greater number of citizens and extent of territory may be brought within its compass. Avoids the dangerous extreme of either tyranny or mobocracy. Results in statesmanship, liberty, reason, justice, contentment, and progress. Is the "standard form" of government throughout the world.

(Angelo Cobrasci, Founder ~ Defenders of Freedom)

How many times must I beat this into your thick skull, Carbine?

Once more:

A Republic is representative government ruled by law (the Constitution). A democracy is direct government ruled by the majority (mob rule).

Seriously, what part of

directly or indirectly through a system of representation,

don't you understand? That was from YOUR definition of democracy. Are you denying that we have a system of representation, or what?

Why can't you discern the difference between an individual and a collective?

 

[TemplarKormac]

"As there is a degree of depravity in mankind which requires a certain degree of circumspection and distrust: So there are other qualities in human nature, which justify a certain portion of esteem and confidence. Republican government (that of a Republic) presupposes the existence of these qualities in a higher degree than any other form. Were the pictures which have been drawn by the political jealousy of some among us, faithful likenesses of the human character, the inference would be that there is not sufficient virtue among men for self government; and that nothing less than the chains of despotism can restrain them from destroying and devouring one another."

James Madison, Federalist No. 55

 

[Locke11_21]

Holy sheeshkabob!!!

I can't recall the last time I agreed with 'Peanuts' Carter!!!

Jimmy has made a couple of good comments lately. Remember when Bill Clinton stated how the economy was in recession and he praised Mitt Romney? Suddenly, lefties said he was older, he's 65 years old and a step off of his political game?

It'll be interesting to see when Jimmy gets a similar retaliation from the "tolerant" "open-minded" left.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Yes, twisting the definitions. Look at them again. Laugh all you want, you're still wrong. Absolutely pathetic, Carbine.

Then refresh yourself:

DEMOCRACY:
A government of the masses. Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of "direct" expression. Results in mobocracy. Attitude toward property is communistic--negating property rights. Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate, whether is be based upon deliberation or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences. Results in demogogism, license, agitation, discontent, anarchy.

REPUBLIC:
Authority is derived through the election by the people of public officials best fitted to represent them. Attitude toward law is the administration of justice in accord with fixed principles and established evidence, with a strict regard to consequences. A greater number of citizens and extent of territory may be brought within its compass. Avoids the dangerous extreme of either tyranny or mobocracy. Results in statesmanship, liberty, reason, justice, contentment, and progress. Is the "standard form" of government throughout the world.

(Angelo Cobrasci, Founder ~ Defenders of Freedom)

How many times must I beat this into your thick skull, Carbine?

Once more:

A Republic is representative government ruled by law (the Constitution). A democracy is direct government ruled by the majority (mob rule).

Seriously, what part of

directly or indirectly through a system of representation,

don't you understand? That was from YOUR definition of democracy. Are you denying that we have a system of representation, or what?

Why can't you discern the difference between an individual and a collective?

That's meaningless drivel.

We have a democratically elected representative government. That makes us a democracy. You need to learn to stop digging once you've been proven wrong.

 

[NYcarbineer]

"As there is a degree of depravity in mankind which requires a certain degree of circumspection and distrust: So there are other qualities in human nature, which justify a certain portion of esteem and confidence. Republican government (that of a Republic) presupposes the existence of these qualities in a higher degree than any other form. Were the pictures which have been drawn by the political jealousy of some among us, faithful likenesses of the human character, the inference would be that there is not sufficient virtue among men for self government; and that nothing less than the chains of despotism can restrain them from destroying and devouring one another."

James Madison, Federalist No. 55

The problem with our 'discussion' is that you are trying to limit the definition of 'democracy' to 'direct democracy',

which is an error on your part that you are stubbornly unwilling to correct.

'Direct democracy' is a subset of the broader term 'democracy'.

'Representative democracy', which is synonymous with 'republic', is also a subset.

As long as you persist in arguing from a fundamentally incorrect definition of the word 'democracy',

you will always be wrong.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Republics can be democracies. They are called democratic republics.

Why is every fucking conservative on the planet too ignorant to understand that simple concept?

They also can't understand this basic truism.

Believing that the United States is not a democracy is just one of those common myths that has entrenched itself in the big book of 'Things that aren't true even though lots of people think they are',

aka old wives' tales.

The Brandeis who got the infamous Woodrow Wilson...the man who wanted to cast off the Constitution, elected?

One and the same.