Question for those that support sanctuary cities/states.

[Liquid Reigns]

States have no Constitutional basis to care if someone is from out of state or from out of State, since 1808.

And yet they do, hence their own state benefits, etc. Why do you think many states placed in their very constitutions the limiting of people form entering their borders, paupers, vagabonds, etc?

It is a federal problem that should be resolved with the federal powers already delegated by the People, in our federal Constitution.

I agree

I am Saying, any problems States have should be prioritized by the States.

First degrees should go first.

OK

 

[Liquid Reigns]

Article 1, Section 9.
The migration or importation of such persons as any of the states now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each person.

Relying on a section that has been stricken through doesn't bode well for your argument. You do know what the importation of people was right? The slave owner was charged $10 for bringing a slave into the State. SMFH

 

[Liquid Reigns]

I said there should be no such thing as so - called "illegal immigration."

And yet there is. :SHRUG:

There used to be a show on tv called Death Valley Days. It was historical recreations of the actual events that happened in mostly the 1800s in the U.S.. Its depictions show that we had open borders and tremendously effective immigration control.

LMFAO It was not historical recreations of actual events. SMFH It in no way showed we had open borders or effective immigration control. LMFAO

The POLICE STATE mentality and immigration control are as different as gun control and actual crime control. The principles, however, are much alike.

What principles would those be?

The liberals look at guns and have a conniption fit. Oh, the guns are the problem, they say. And, rather than to respect peoples LIBERTY, they are content with knee jerk solutions that do not address the underlying issue. Ditto for those who want to change America into a socialist shit-hole on the nonsensical presupposition that deporting foreigners is some kind of solution to their problem.

Ideological drivel!

Here is the kicker: Rather than answer my questions, the people who are sold on the POLICE STATE ignore the tough questions about what happens should they win. And the left would love to see you win.

Your questions have been answered and you were shown to be nothing more than a bloviating extremist, full of exaggeration.

 

[Liquid Reigns]

Whether or not a person is guilty or not of robbing a bank is not as relevant as to whether they are presumed innocent or not. It's really a separate issue, but the build the wall guys want to build their case at an expense to the Rights and Freedoms of all Americans. That includes their own, BTW.

Its not a separate issue, they can be charged and found guilty by a court and given a sentence for it, or they can be still guilty of it until they are caught. Robbing the bank doesn't change your guilt or your crime.

Should we have open borders?

The answer is a resounding yes. Why?

It takes a complete and total POLICE STATE in order to enforce the National Socialist utopia envisioned by the build the wall types. What you have to lose is greater than what you have to gain.

And yet it doesn't take but immigration law limited to foreigners to apply only to those foreigners. Immigration law does not effect you or your liberties. SHRUG:

All the build the wall guys want to talk about are what they see as their strongest talking points, but not where the road ultimately takes them. In fifteen years, they have never even attempted to answer my questions (a previous post contains one of those questions.)

The symptoms they fear can be dealt with more effectively without the assault on Liberty.

When your claims are shown to be outlandish, you run to the next thread/forum and repeat the same stupidity.

 

[Liquid Reigns]

There seems to be enough, latitude of construction, to permit States to charge up to ten dollars to ensure lawful Commerce in their markets.

It wasn't the states charging the money for the entry of slaves into our states.

 

[Liquid Reigns]

Anyway, since you didn't answer my last question, I trust you will be thinking about it??? Let me give you another scenario:

Suppose that you "win." The wall goes up and we do all these deportations. Let's say it works out exactly the way you want it to.

Have you stopped to consider that once that happens Uncle Scam then would have to turn those ninja clad federal mercenaries loose on YOU? There will always be new laws and new bogeys to go after.

BP/ICE agents are limited in their jurisdictions and to whom they can arrest and detain. :SHRUG:

Those on the right don't seem to get it. The LEO community isn't into laying off cops. Last night they had a special on about the 25th anniversary about the attack on the Branch Davidians. It reinforced in my mind why I do not trust a government so big it cannot be resisted. And, despite all that was learned from Waco, the build the wall guys think that this omnipotent form of government can serve them well.

blah, blah, blah.

They cannot understand that the drones used to police so - called "illegal aliens" will be the same, identical LEO effort that is used against alleged domestic terrorists, enemy combatants, racists, tax protesters, etc. WHEN the political pendulum swings back the opposite direction (and it always does) the left is in charge and the same treatment you want to dish out is dished out to you. Not guilty of being a domestic terrorist? You might own a firearm and disagree with the libs. You're a terrorist. You advocated for a position of presuming people guilty and no due process. Think you're not an enemy combatant? Check out some of the posts on this board by extreme black liberals. Give them that power that cannot be resisted and those ninja clad terrorists you used to lock down the border.

:YAWN:

I came up with a twelve point program that would not increase the size, power and /or scope of government. It won't increase taxes. But, the build the walls guys have no intention of ever considering it. It does not punish their political enemies. It illustrates the fact that Thomas Paine was right all along.

Taking Paine's quote out of context doesn't bolster your claims, especially when it was written in France and pertained to France. SMFH

 

[Liquid Reigns]

I heard that. I get defensive over this subject and spend too much time on the Internet. But, we can have a good conversation about this. You have to figure out who the trolls are and ignore their B.S.

One indicator: They will have to quote every single sentence posted and pretend to disagree with concocted lies that have been debunked time and time again.

There is nothing you have debunked. You have done nothing more than take quotes out of context and tried your damnedest to make them fit your narrative. What concocted lies have others made? SMFH

 

[antifa]

85% of our crops will rot in the field without illegally migrant workers. They deserve sanctuary in all 50 states.

LOL, less than 50% of field workers are illegals, how do you then suppose over 85% of our crops will rot? SMFH
Many crops can be harvested with machines, its the up front expense to the farmer as to why he doesn't purchase them and not hire manual labor.

You have to include packing houses, slaughter houses (feed market), and restaurants. Without all these illegal workers, our economy will take a nose dive. The farmers will only be able to salvage about 15% of their crop.

Look what happened in Alabama.

 

[Liquid Reigns]

85% of our crops will rot in the field without illegally migrant workers. They deserve sanctuary in all 50 states.

LOL, less than 50% of field workers are illegals, how do you then suppose over 85% of our crops will rot? SMFH
Many crops can be harvested with machines, its the up front expense to the farmer as to why he doesn't purchase them and not hire manual labor.

You have to include packing houses, slaughter houses (feed market), and restaurants. Without all these illegal workers, our economy will take a nose dive. The farmers will only be able to salvage about 15% of their crop.

Look what happened in Alabama.

LOL, the slaughter houses had people lined up to work there when Bush raided them and got rid of all the illegal workers. Restaurants would lose buss boys, but guess what, young 16 - 20 year old's would take those jobs.

Those days without an illegal 10 or so years ago blew up in their faces. Our economy wouldn't notice them being gone. Farmers would lose some, it wouldn't be an 85% loss, at best a 20% loss.

Alabama? some farmers claiming losses, yet produce costs did not change nor were there produce shortages in the markets. gofigure

 

[Humorme]

85% of our crops will rot in the field without illegally migrant workers. They deserve sanctuary in all 50 states.

LOL, less than 50% of field workers are illegals, how do you then suppose over 85% of our crops will rot? SMFH
Many crops can be harvested with machines, its the up front expense to the farmer as to why he doesn't purchase them and not hire manual labor.

You have to include packing houses, slaughter houses (feed market), and restaurants. Without all these illegal workers, our economy will take a nose dive. The farmers will only be able to salvage about 15% of their crop.

Look what happened in Alabama.

Just for chits and giggles, what would you say if we tried this:

In Alabama, instead of keeping people in prison rotting away you create tax incentives for farmers to hire ex-cons on probation. Then, instead of just sticking people with a criminal record back on the street, they work a regular job for a season, getting some money together and preparing themselves to go back into society, getting a regular job and getting their lives together.

If those farm jobs were being taken by work - release prisoners who can't get any other job, doesn't that reduce the perceived need for so many foreign laborers?

 

[antifa]

85% of our crops will rot in the field without illegally migrant workers. They deserve sanctuary in all 50 states.

LOL, less than 50% of field workers are illegals, how do you then suppose over 85% of our crops will rot? SMFH
Many crops can be harvested with machines, its the up front expense to the farmer as to why he doesn't purchase them and not hire manual labor.

You have to include packing houses, slaughter houses (feed market), and restaurants. Without all these illegal workers, our economy will take a nose dive. The farmers will only be able to salvage about 15% of their crop.

Look what happened in Alabama.

Just for chits and giggles, what would you say if we tried this:

In Alabama, instead of keeping people in prison rotting away you create tax incentives for farmers to hire ex-cons on probation. Then, instead of just sticking people with a criminal record back on the street, they work a regular job for a season, getting some money together and preparing themselves to go back into society, getting a regular job and getting their lives together.

If those farm jobs were being taken by work - release prisoners who can't get any other job, doesn't that reduce the perceived need for so many foreign laborers?

Most states are already doing that. It's called slave labor. The courts keep the prisons filled so crony capitalism can continue pretending the taxpayer will never figurer out who is getting rich off their money.

 

[Wyatt earp]

How should illegal immigration be controlled? It seems that the mindset of the sanctuary city/state crowd is that once a person arrives illegally (or over stays a visa), that person should be welcomed to stay, establish permanent residence, become legally employed, receive government services, acquire a driver’s license, enroll children into public schools, and eventually seek citizenship and have the right to vote. In other words, the illegal immigrant is to be granted all the rights, benefits and protections as legal immigrants. How can we control immigration if we don’t treat illegal immigration as a crime and allow illegal immigrants to simply blend into our society? Also, if you believe we should have open boarders making all immigrants legal, just say so!

You asked for it so no name calling. I am right of center and have never voted for nor supported a liberal, democrat, or anyone left of center.

In my view there should be no such thing as "illegal immigration." As one of our founding fathers put it:

"An avidity to punish is always dangerous to liberty. It leads men to stretch, to misinterpret, and to misapply even the best of laws. He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." A Dissertation on the First Principles of Government (1795)

Early in America's history, people came from every corner of the earth to take advantage of opportunities willingly offered. At the same time, nobody except whites could become citizens.

Why we think that everybody that washes up on our shores should become a citizen, get a free education, be afforded welfare, be extended the privilege of voting and force their beliefs down our throats has always been a mystery to me - ESPECIALLY when those people fled somewhere to come here.

I've been kicked like a dog on these discussion boards because those advocating the ultimate POLICE STATE cannot see the end game for which they are fighting. Let us pretend that you win.

You build a wall. You kick out all the undocumented foreigners (you really want to call them expletive deleted) but, you call them "illegal aliens" when they've never been arrested much less convicted of a damn thing. So, anyway you kick them out along with their America born children. Lock the door on the wall and throw away the key. Problem solved. Right? Wrong.

The American born children of foreigners are American citizens whether we like it or not - agree with it or not. You send them back south of the border and in a few years they start showing up at the border with their Socialist Surveillance Number ...ooops. "Social Security Number" and a birth certificate. They want to come home. Sorry guys, you can't keep them out. They are American citizens and you cannot challenge their citizenship (ex post facto laws are prohibited in the Constitution.)

So, they start coming here in droves. They no longer speak English; they have no family support system (you deported that family); they will most likely have no money, education or job skills. Now what do you do? I've been asking this for a dozen or more years and have never gotten a direct / honest / realistic answer.

You can give me all that "open border" paranoia all you want, but that is only one question I have to counter you with. I do have well reasoned responses for you, IF we can get past the name calling, shouting, false allegations, the usual banter that ensues.

I have more questions along with a realistic way to eliminate the issue altogether.

but, you call them "illegal aliens" when they've neverbeen arrested much less convicted of a damn thing




What kind of retarded thinking is that?


They cross our borders illegally they are criminals


They over stay their visas they are criminals

No sir, they absolutely are NOT criminals. What's retarded in this country are stupid people who ignore the Constitution of the United States and some fundamental principles. I keep quoting Tom Paine, one of our country's founders. When it comes to anti-immigrants, they can't understand it. Let me repeat it, then I'll explain it to you:

"An avidity to punish is always dangerous to liberty. It leads men to stretch, to misinterpret, and to misapply even the best of laws. He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." A Dissertation on the First Principles of Government (1795)

The FIRST misapplication of the law is that insist on calling undocumented foreigners "illegal aliens" and assure us they are criminals and so forth. They take the entire concept of innocent until proven guilty / presumption of innocence and toss it out the window.

When that precedent is used on them, they scratch their heads and if it happens to be them, they are really pissed with the LEO community. People are raging mad in the United States at the LEOs. How can they beat people in the streets and even shoot them without due process?

The real reason that stuff happens is that the anti-immigrant lobby and the Tea Party types envision a total POLICE STATE for America. They love the idea of cops watching them 24 / 7 / 365. They like the idea of the pee test, blood test, driver's license, Socialist Security Number ...ooops "Social Security Number," birth certificate, criminal background check, credit check, drones in the sky and zero constitutional protections against warrant-less search and seizures.

Under our constitutional / legal / dejure U.S. Constitution everybody is entitled to the equal protection of the laws. See the 14th Amendment. IF a foreigner is a criminal absent due process then EVERY AMERICAN IS GUILTY OF SOME KIND OF CRIME. A cop once told me that if you don't have a record, it's only because you haven't been caught yet.

I can thank people like you for this atmosphere of fear, paranoia, and what is little more than a National Socialist approach to the issues at hand... all which was a great deflection to keep from answering MY question.

What kind of goofy post is this? So in your mind anyone everyone born in the world is an American and protected by the Constitution?

No if your not born in America and sneak in here or over stay your visa you are a criminal plane and simple

What's so complicated about it in your mind?

 

[Humorme]

85% of our crops will rot in the field without illegally migrant workers. They deserve sanctuary in all 50 states.

LOL, less than 50% of field workers are illegals, how do you then suppose over 85% of our crops will rot? SMFH
Many crops can be harvested with machines, its the up front expense to the farmer as to why he doesn't purchase them and not hire manual labor.

You have to include packing houses, slaughter houses (feed market), and restaurants. Without all these illegal workers, our economy will take a nose dive. The farmers will only be able to salvage about 15% of their crop.

Look what happened in Alabama.

Just for chits and giggles, what would you say if we tried this:

In Alabama, instead of keeping people in prison rotting away you create tax incentives for farmers to hire ex-cons on probation. Then, instead of just sticking people with a criminal record back on the street, they work a regular job for a season, getting some money together and preparing themselves to go back into society, getting a regular job and getting their lives together.

If those farm jobs were being taken by work - release prisoners who can't get any other job, doesn't that reduce the perceived need for so many foreign laborers?

Most states are already doing that. It's called slave labor. The courts keep the prisons filled so crony capitalism can continue pretending the taxpayer will never figurer out who is getting rich off their money.

Which states are you saying do that? Yeah, I agree that the whole prison system deal is a joke in the United States as we have more prisons than any nation on the planet.

OTOH, when those people get out, nobody wants them. They have a criminal record, no work history, and usually no family support system.

 

[Unkotare]

85% of our crops will rot in the field without illegally migrant workers. They deserve sanctuary in all 50 states.

LOL, less than 50% of field workers are illegals, how do you then suppose over 85% of our crops will rot? SMFH
Many crops can be harvested with machines, its the up front expense to the farmer as to why he doesn't purchase them and not hire manual labor.

You have to include packing houses, slaughter houses (feed market), and restaurants. Without all these illegal workers, our economy will take a nose dive. The farmers will only be able to salvage about 15% of their crop.

Look what happened in Alabama.

Just for chits and giggles, what would you say if we tried this:

In Alabama, instead of keeping people in prison rotting away you create tax incentives for farmers to hire ex-cons on probation. Then, instead of just sticking people with a criminal record back on the street, they work a regular job for a season, getting some money together and preparing themselves to go back into society, getting a regular job and getting their lives together.

If those farm jobs were being taken by work - release prisoners who can't get any other job, doesn't that reduce the perceived need for so many foreign laborers?

Most states are already doing that. It's called slave labor. The courts keep the prisons filled so crony capitalism can continue pretending the taxpayer will never figurer [sic] out who is getting rich off their money.

This kind of 'post' belongs on the conspiracy forum.

 

[antifa]

85% of our crops will rot in the field without illegally migrant workers. They deserve sanctuary in all 50 states.

LOL, less than 50% of field workers are illegals, how do you then suppose over 85% of our crops will rot? SMFH
Many crops can be harvested with machines, its the up front expense to the farmer as to why he doesn't purchase them and not hire manual labor.

You have to include packing houses, slaughter houses (feed market), and restaurants. Without all these illegal workers, our economy will take a nose dive. The farmers will only be able to salvage about 15% of their crop.

Look what happened in Alabama.

Just for chits and giggles, what would you say if we tried this:

In Alabama, instead of keeping people in prison rotting away you create tax incentives for farmers to hire ex-cons on probation. Then, instead of just sticking people with a criminal record back on the street, they work a regular job for a season, getting some money together and preparing themselves to go back into society, getting a regular job and getting their lives together.

If those farm jobs were being taken by work - release prisoners who can't get any other job, doesn't that reduce the perceived need for so many foreign laborers?

Most states are already doing that. It's called slave labor. The courts keep the prisons filled so crony capitalism can continue pretending the taxpayer will never figurer out who is getting rich off their money.

Which states are you saying do that? Yeah, I agree that the whole prison system deal is a joke in the United States as we have more prisons than any nation on the planet.

OTOH, when those people get out, nobody wants them. They have a criminal record, no work history, and usually no family support system.

I'd have to check but I'm pretty sure it will be most southern states or any state that doesn't have enough migrant workers.

 

[Wyatt earp]

How should illegal immigration be controlled? It seems that the mindset of the sanctuary city/state crowd is that once a person arrives illegally (or over stays a visa), that person should be welcomed to stay, establish permanent residence, become legally employed, receive government services, acquire a driver’s license, enroll children into public schools, and eventually seek citizenship and have the right to vote. In other words, the illegal immigrant is to be granted all the rights, benefits and protections as legal immigrants. How can we control immigration if we don’t treat illegal immigration as a crime and allow illegal immigrants to simply blend into our society? Also, if you believe we should have open boarders making all immigrants legal, just say so!

You asked for it so no name calling. I am right of center and have never voted for nor supported a liberal, democrat, or anyone left of center.

In my view there should be no such thing as "illegal immigration." As one of our founding fathers put it:

"An avidity to punish is always dangerous to liberty. It leads men to stretch, to misinterpret, and to misapply even the best of laws. He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." A Dissertation on the First Principles of Government (1795)

Early in America's history, people came from every corner of the earth to take advantage of opportunities willingly offered. At the same time, nobody except whites could become citizens.

Why we think that everybody that washes up on our shores should become a citizen, get a free education, be afforded welfare, be extended the privilege of voting and force their beliefs down our throats has always been a mystery to me - ESPECIALLY when those people fled somewhere to come here.

I've been kicked like a dog on these discussion boards because those advocating the ultimate POLICE STATE cannot see the end game for which they are fighting. Let us pretend that you win.

You build a wall. You kick out all the undocumented foreigners (you really want to call them expletive deleted) but, you call them "illegal aliens" when they've never been arrested much less convicted of a damn thing. So, anyway you kick them out along with their America born children. Lock the door on the wall and throw away the key. Problem solved. Right? Wrong.

The American born children of foreigners are American citizens whether we like it or not - agree with it or not. You send them back south of the border and in a few years they start showing up at the border with their Socialist Surveillance Number ...ooops. "Social Security Number" and a birth certificate. They want to come home. Sorry guys, you can't keep them out. They are American citizens and you cannot challenge their citizenship (ex post facto laws are prohibited in the Constitution.)

So, they start coming here in droves. They no longer speak English; they have no family support system (you deported that family); they will most likely have no money, education or job skills. Now what do you do? I've been asking this for a dozen or more years and have never gotten a direct / honest / realistic answer.

You can give me all that "open border" paranoia all you want, but that is only one question I have to counter you with. I do have well reasoned responses for you, IF we can get past the name calling, shouting, false allegations, the usual banter that ensues.

I have more questions along with a realistic way to eliminate the issue altogether.

but, you call them "illegal aliens" when they've neverbeen arrested much less convicted of a damn thing




What kind of retarded thinking is that?


They cross our borders illegally they are criminals


They over stay their visas they are criminals

No sir, they absolutely are NOT criminals. What's retarded in this country are stupid people who ignore the Constitution of the United States and some fundamental principles. I keep quoting Tom Paine, one of our country's founders. When it comes to anti-immigrants, they can't understand it. Let me repeat it, then I'll explain it to you:

"An avidity to punish is always dangerous to liberty. It leads men to stretch, to misinterpret, and to misapply even the best of laws. He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." A Dissertation on the First Principles of Government (1795)

The FIRST misapplication of the law is that insist on calling undocumented foreigners "illegal aliens" and assure us they are criminals and so forth. They take the entire concept of innocent until proven guilty / presumption of innocence and toss it out the window.

When that precedent is used on them, they scratch their heads and if it happens to be them, they are really pissed with the LEO community. People are raging mad in the United States at the LEOs. How can they beat people in the streets and even shoot them without due process?

The real reason that stuff happens is that the anti-immigrant lobby and the Tea Party types envision a total POLICE STATE for America. They love the idea of cops watching them 24 / 7 / 365. They like the idea of the pee test, blood test, driver's license, Socialist Security Number ...ooops "Social Security Number," birth certificate, criminal background check, credit check, drones in the sky and zero constitutional protections against warrant-less search and seizures.

Under our constitutional / legal / dejure U.S. Constitution everybody is entitled to the equal protection of the laws. See the 14th Amendment. IF a foreigner is a criminal absent due process then EVERY AMERICAN IS GUILTY OF SOME KIND OF CRIME. A cop once told me that if you don't have a record, it's only because you haven't been caught yet.

I can thank people like you for this atmosphere of fear, paranoia, and what is little more than a National Socialist approach to the issues at hand... all which was a great deflection to keep from answering MY question.

While it is true under our law, one is presumed innocent until proven guilty by due process, that doesn't determine the reality of one's guilt or innocence. For example, I could possibly wear a mask and rob a bank and never be caught. Am I guilty of robbing the bank since I've never been convicted? Of course I am (if I were to have actually robbed a bank); the act of robbing the bank is what makes me guilty of robbing the bank. Likewise, if a person enters the country illegally to stay, that act makes the person an illegal immigrant.


Some posters to this thread are for open borders. I can respect that. For those that are for open boarders, they should be for changing the law to reflect that. We as a country need to decide whether we are going to have laws to restrict immigration or not!

While it is true under our law, one is presumed innocent until proven guilty by due process,




Not with illegals they can and do deport them with out a hearing.



If I break into your house, eat your food, sleep on your couch am I or am I not a criminal?


It's the same thing

 

[Wyatt earp]

The OP wishes to shred the US Constitution & institute a Police State to kill, arrest or remove undesirables, build a wall & put the country on lock down.

There is NO Constitutional right for a foreigner to enter America; it's a privilege that can be revoked at any time for any reason. ALL countries enforce their borders, but you liberals scream and yell when America does it because you're self-hating Americans who want to dissolve our sovereignty and give the 3rd world a free ride. You don't even care how open borders affects fellow Americans.

What you're saying is absolute stupidity. It was people like you that bitched and wailed when Obama would kneel before third world potentates. Yet you and Barack Obama want the same thing for America: You advocate the same laws.

Get this through your head: This is the United States of America. This nation was conceived in Liberty and it became the GREATEST NATION IN THE ANNALS OF HISTORY. What made us great was an idea, a presupposition, and the advancement of that idea into a document of which the author stated was the "declaratory charter of the rights of man." Let me share an excerpt from that document:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Declaration of Independence

You should look up the word LIBERTY. It has a meaning. Liberty is not granted by government, it is a Right that is above the reach of mortal men.

Early in our country's history, people came from every corner of the earth in search of opportunities. At the same time, only whites could become citizens. Only whites could hold public office. We were controlling immigration without walls, drones, or the POLICE STATE. In those days the government did not tell employers who they could and could not hire. The government did not require us to provide foreigners with a free education. There were no welfare agencies or government freebies for the foreigner to expect would cater to them.

And yet, despite all of that, America did not go down the tubes. We sent more soldiers into battle than any other country on the planet. And that was always for some other country's benefit, not ours. We put more missionaries on foreign soil than all other countries combined! We became the economic powerhouse of the world, all the while having a Statue of Liberty welcoming people from everywhere in the world.

By contrast, the people like yourself have endorsed the so - called "Patriot Act," the National ID / REAL ID Act, National Defense Authorization Act, the end to innocent until proven guilty / presumption of innocence, the end of private property Rights, and worse. There is never enough government for you people.

Issues that can be solved at the local level and by individuals having the Freedom and Liberty to make their own decisions don't need your Big Government Solutions.

With minimal effort I could end the immigration issue for you and it would never be a problem in the future. But, some people are stuck on stupid and never want to hear the whole story so long as the political propaganda prostitutes continue reciting the same fairy tales over and over and over again. You're so focused on the symptoms and the Hegelian solutions (if you can call regression a solution) that you can't think outside the box.

What are you smoking crack immigrants had to check into Ellis island and some were turned away.

 

[Vandalshandle]

How should illegal immigration be controlled? It seems that the mindset of the sanctuary city/state crowd is that once a person arrives illegally (or over stays a visa), that person should be welcomed to stay, establish permanent residence, become legally employed, receive government services, acquire a driver’s license, enroll children into public schools, and eventually seek citizenship and have the right to vote. In other words, the illegal immigrant is to be granted all the rights, benefits and protections as legal immigrants. How can we control immigration if we don’t treat illegal immigration as a crime and allow illegal immigrants to simply blend into our society? Also, if you believe we should have open boarders making all immigrants legal, just say so!

You asked for it so no name calling. I am right of center and have never voted for nor supported a liberal, democrat, or anyone left of center.

In my view there should be no such thing as "illegal immigration." As one of our founding fathers put it:

"An avidity to punish is always dangerous to liberty. It leads men to stretch, to misinterpret, and to misapply even the best of laws. He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." A Dissertation on the First Principles of Government (1795)

Early in America's history, people came from every corner of the earth to take advantage of opportunities willingly offered. At the same time, nobody except whites could become citizens.

Why we think that everybody that washes up on our shores should become a citizen, get a free education, be afforded welfare, be extended the privilege of voting and force their beliefs down our throats has always been a mystery to me - ESPECIALLY when those people fled somewhere to come here.

I've been kicked like a dog on these discussion boards because those advocating the ultimate POLICE STATE cannot see the end game for which they are fighting. Let us pretend that you win.

You build a wall. You kick out all the undocumented foreigners (you really want to call them expletive deleted) but, you call them "illegal aliens" when they've never been arrested much less convicted of a damn thing. So, anyway you kick them out along with their America born children. Lock the door on the wall and throw away the key. Problem solved. Right? Wrong.

The American born children of foreigners are American citizens whether we like it or not - agree with it or not. You send them back south of the border and in a few years they start showing up at the border with their Socialist Surveillance Number ...ooops. "Social Security Number" and a birth certificate. They want to come home. Sorry guys, you can't keep them out. They are American citizens and you cannot challenge their citizenship (ex post facto laws are prohibited in the Constitution.)

So, they start coming here in droves. They no longer speak English; they have no family support system (you deported that family); they will most likely have no money, education or job skills. Now what do you do? I've been asking this for a dozen or more years and have never gotten a direct / honest / realistic answer.

You can give me all that "open border" paranoia all you want, but that is only one question I have to counter you with. I do have well reasoned responses for you, IF we can get past the name calling, shouting, false allegations, the usual banter that ensues.

I have more questions along with a realistic way to eliminate the issue altogether.

but, you call them "illegal aliens" when they've neverbeen arrested much less convicted of a damn thing




What kind of retarded thinking is that?


They cross our borders illegally they are criminals


They over stay their visas they are criminals

Another RW nut who does not understand law. Someone who is a suspect for being an illegal alien is an "undocumented" alien.

Someone who has been convicted of being an illegal alien is guilty of being an "illegal alien", which is a misdemeanor, which is equivalent your being a criminal for having been found guilty of exceeded the speed limit.

Or, are you just disappointed that Trump has not yet removed the concept of "innocent, until proven guilty" from US Constitutional law?

 

[Unkotare]

Everyone in the US is entitled to due process, even illegals.

 

[Liquid Reigns]

Another RW nut who does not understand law. Someone who is a suspect for being an illegal alien is an "undocumented" alien.

Someone who has been convicted of being an illegal alien is guilty of being an "illegal alien", which is a misdemeanor, which is equivalent your being a criminal for having been found guilty of exceeded the speed limit.

Or, are you just disappointed that Trump has not yet removed the concept of "innocent, until proven guilty" from US Constitutional law?

LOL An immigration entry violation is not equivalent to a speeding ticket. As you just stated, improper entry is a misdemeanor. A speeding ticket in nothing more than an infraction. Now, a visa overstay is equivalent to a speeding ticket, as overstaying your visa is not a crime, just an infraction of administrative law, which can be fixed by applying for and receiving an adjustment of status by getting the visa renewed or extended while still here.