Question for those that support sanctuary cities/states.

[danielpalos]

How should illegal immigration be controlled? It seems that the mindset of the sanctuary city/state crowd is that once a person arrives illegally (or over stays a visa), that person should be welcomed to stay, establish permanent residence, become legally employed, receive government services, acquire a driver’s license, enroll children into public schools, and eventually seek citizenship and have the right to vote. In other words, the illegal immigrant is to be granted all the rights, benefits and protections as legal immigrants. How can we control immigration if we don’t treat illegal immigration as a crime and allow illegal immigrants to simply blend into our society? Also, if you believe we should have open boarders making all immigrants legal, just say so!

At the federal borders because this is a federal problem since 1808, not a State problem, since then.

A market friendly visa program that allows participants to "try their luck" in our markets; would be a boon to any State that generates revenue from tourism.

A federal id should be a requirement.

Revenue from the visa system could help fund unemployment compensation on an at-will basis in our at-will employment States, so native labor can, "retool."

 

[JoeMoma]

How should illegal immigration be controlled? It seems that the mindset of the sanctuary city/state crowd is that once a person arrives illegally (or over stays a visa), that person should be welcomed to stay, establish permanent residence, become legally employed, receive government services, acquire a driver’s license, enroll children into public schools, and eventually seek citizenship and have the right to vote. In other words, the illegal immigrant is to be granted all the rights, benefits and protections as legal immigrants. How can we control immigration if we don’t treat illegal immigration as a crime and allow illegal immigrants to simply blend into our society? Also, if you believe we should have open boarders making all immigrants legal, just say so!

At the federal borders because this is a federal problem since 1808, not a State problem, since then.

A market friendly visa program that allows participants to "try their luck" in our markets; would be a boon to any State that generates revenue from tourism.

A federal id should be a requirement.

Revenue from the visa system could help fund unemployment compensation on an at-will basis in our at-will employment States, so native labor can, "retool."

Are you saying that if a person can get though the "federal" border illegally or overstay a visa illegally that the states should treat such an individual the same as everyone else because it's not a state problem? Are you saying there should be no cooperation between stage/local governments and the federal government when it comes to immigration?

 

[Humorme]

The OP wishes to shred the US Constitution & institute a Police State to kill, arrest or remove undesirables, build a wall & put the country on lock down.

There is NO Constitutional right for a foreigner to enter America; it's a privilege that can be revoked at any time for any reason. ALL countries enforce their borders, but you liberals scream and yell when America does it because you're self-hating Americans who want to dissolve our sovereignty and give the 3rd world a free ride. You don't even care how open borders affects fellow Americans.

What you're saying is absolute stupidity. It was people like you that bitched and wailed when Obama would kneel before third world potentates. Yet you and Barack Obama want the same thing for America: You advocate the same laws.

Get this through your head: This is the United States of America. This nation was conceived in Liberty and it became the GREATEST NATION IN THE ANNALS OF HISTORY. What made us great was an idea, a presupposition, and the advancement of that idea into a document of which the author stated was the "declaratory charter of the rights of man." Let me share an excerpt from that document:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Declaration of Independence

You should look up the word LIBERTY. It has a meaning. Liberty is not granted by government, it is a Right that is above the reach of mortal men.

Early in our country's history, people came from every corner of the earth in search of opportunities. At the same time, only whites could become citizens. Only whites could hold public office. We were controlling immigration without walls, drones, or the POLICE STATE. In those days the government did not tell employers who they could and could not hire. The government did not require us to provide foreigners with a free education. There were no welfare agencies or government freebies for the foreigner to expect would cater to them.

And yet, despite all of that, America did not go down the tubes. We sent more soldiers into battle than any other country on the planet. And that was always for some other country's benefit, not ours. We put more missionaries on foreign soil than all other countries combined! We became the economic powerhouse of the world, all the while having a Statue of Liberty welcoming people from everywhere in the world.

By contrast, the people like yourself have endorsed the so - called "Patriot Act," the National ID / REAL ID Act, National Defense Authorization Act, the end to innocent until proven guilty / presumption of innocence, the end of private property Rights, and worse. There is never enough government for you people.

Issues that can be solved at the local level and by individuals having the Freedom and Liberty to make their own decisions don't need your Big Government Solutions.

With minimal effort I could end the immigration issue for you and it would never be a problem in the future. But, some people are stuck on stupid and never want to hear the whole story so long as the political propaganda prostitutes continue reciting the same fairy tales over and over and over again. You're so focused on the symptoms and the Hegelian solutions (if you can call regression a solution) that you can't think outside the box.

 

[danielpalos]

How should illegal immigration be controlled? It seems that the mindset of the sanctuary city/state crowd is that once a person arrives illegally (or over stays a visa), that person should be welcomed to stay, establish permanent residence, become legally employed, receive government services, acquire a driver’s license, enroll children into public schools, and eventually seek citizenship and have the right to vote. In other words, the illegal immigrant is to be granted all the rights, benefits and protections as legal immigrants. How can we control immigration if we don’t treat illegal immigration as a crime and allow illegal immigrants to simply blend into our society? Also, if you believe we should have open boarders making all immigrants legal, just say so!

At the federal borders because this is a federal problem since 1808, not a State problem, since then.

A market friendly visa program that allows participants to "try their luck" in our markets; would be a boon to any State that generates revenue from tourism.

A federal id should be a requirement.

Revenue from the visa system could help fund unemployment compensation on an at-will basis in our at-will employment States, so native labor can, "retool."

Are you saying that if a person can get though the "federal" border illegally or overstay a visa illegally that the states should treat such an individual the same as everyone else because it's not a state problem? Are you saying there should be no cooperation between stage/local governments and the federal government when it comes to immigration?

States have no Constitutional basis to care if someone is from out of state or from out of State, since 1808.

It is a federal problem that should be resolved with the federal powers already delegated by the People, in our federal Constitution.

I am Saying, any problems States have should be prioritized by the States.

First degrees should go first.

 

[KissMy]

How should illegal immigration be controlled? It seems that the mindset of the sanctuary city/state crowd is that once a person arrives illegally (or over stays a visa), that person should be welcomed to stay, establish permanent residence, become legally employed, receive government services, acquire a driver’s license, enroll children into public schools, and eventually seek citizenship and have the right to vote. In other words, the illegal immigrant is to be granted all the rights, benefits and protections as legal immigrants. How can we control immigration if we don’t treat illegal immigration as a crime and allow illegal immigrants to simply blend into our society? Also, if you believe we should have open boarders making all immigrants legal, just say so!

At the federal borders because this is a federal problem since 1808, not a State problem, since then.

A market friendly visa program that allows participants to "try their luck" in our markets; would be a boon to any State that generates revenue from tourism.

A federal id should be a requirement.

Revenue from the visa system could help fund unemployment compensation on an at-will basis in our at-will employment States, so native labor can, "retool."

Article 1, Section 9.
The migration or importation of such persons as any of the states now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each person.

The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.

No bill of attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

No capitation, or other direct, tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken.

No tax or duty shall be laid on articles exported from any state.

 

[Humorme]

How should illegal immigration be controlled? It seems that the mindset of the sanctuary city/state crowd is that once a person arrives illegally (or over stays a visa), that person should be welcomed to stay, establish permanent residence, become legally employed, receive government services, acquire a driver’s license, enroll children into public schools, and eventually seek citizenship and have the right to vote. In other words, the illegal immigrant is to be granted all the rights, benefits and protections as legal immigrants. How can we control immigration if we don’t treat illegal immigration as a crime and allow illegal immigrants to simply blend into our society? Also, if you believe we should have open boarders making all immigrants legal, just say so!

At the federal borders because this is a federal problem since 1808, not a State problem, since then.

A market friendly visa program that allows participants to "try their luck" in our markets; would be a boon to any State that generates revenue from tourism.

A federal id should be a requirement.

Revenue from the visa system could help fund unemployment compensation on an at-will basis in our at-will employment States, so native labor can, "retool."

Are you saying that if a person can get though the "federal" border illegally or overstay a visa illegally that the states should treat such an individual the same as everyone else because it's not a state problem? Are you saying there should be no cooperation between stage/local governments and the federal government when it comes to immigration?

I said there should be no such thing as so - called "illegal immigration."

There used to be a show on tv called Death Valley Days. It was historical recreations of the actual events that happened in mostly the 1800s in the U.S.. Its depictions show that we had open borders and tremendously effective immigration control.

The POLICE STATE mentality and immigration control are as different as gun control and actual crime control. The principles, however, are much alike.

The liberals look at guns and have a conniption fit. Oh, the guns are the problem, they say. And, rather than to respect peoples LIBERTY, they are content with knee jerk solutions that do not address the underlying issue. Ditto for those who want to change America into a socialist shit-hole on the nonsensical presupposition that deporting foreigners is some kind of solution to their problem.

Here is the kicker: Rather than answer my questions, the people who are sold on the POLICE STATE ignore the tough questions about what happens should they win. And the left would love to see you win.

 

[Humorme]

How should illegal immigration be controlled? It seems that the mindset of the sanctuary city/state crowd is that once a person arrives illegally (or over stays a visa), that person should be welcomed to stay, establish permanent residence, become legally employed, receive government services, acquire a driver’s license, enroll children into public schools, and eventually seek citizenship and have the right to vote. In other words, the illegal immigrant is to be granted all the rights, benefits and protections as legal immigrants. How can we control immigration if we don’t treat illegal immigration as a crime and allow illegal immigrants to simply blend into our society? Also, if you believe we should have open boarders making all immigrants legal, just say so!

You asked for it so no name calling. I am right of center and have never voted for nor supported a liberal, democrat, or anyone left of center.

In my view there should be no such thing as "illegal immigration." As one of our founding fathers put it:

"An avidity to punish is always dangerous to liberty. It leads men to stretch, to misinterpret, and to misapply even the best of laws. He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." A Dissertation on the First Principles of Government (1795)

Early in America's history, people came from every corner of the earth to take advantage of opportunities willingly offered. At the same time, nobody except whites could become citizens.

Why we think that everybody that washes up on our shores should become a citizen, get a free education, be afforded welfare, be extended the privilege of voting and force their beliefs down our throats has always been a mystery to me - ESPECIALLY when those people fled somewhere to come here.

I've been kicked like a dog on these discussion boards because those advocating the ultimate POLICE STATE cannot see the end game for which they are fighting. Let us pretend that you win.

You build a wall. You kick out all the undocumented foreigners (you really want to call them expletive deleted) but, you call them "illegal aliens" when they've never been arrested much less convicted of a damn thing. So, anyway you kick them out along with their America born children. Lock the door on the wall and throw away the key. Problem solved. Right? Wrong.

The American born children of foreigners are American citizens whether we like it or not - agree with it or not. You send them back south of the border and in a few years they start showing up at the border with their Socialist Surveillance Number ...ooops. "Social Security Number" and a birth certificate. They want to come home. Sorry guys, you can't keep them out. They are American citizens and you cannot challenge their citizenship (ex post facto laws are prohibited in the Constitution.)

So, they start coming here in droves. They no longer speak English; they have no family support system (you deported that family); they will most likely have no money, education or job skills. Now what do you do? I've been asking this for a dozen or more years and have never gotten a direct / honest / realistic answer.

You can give me all that "open border" paranoia all you want, but that is only one question I have to counter you with. I do have well reasoned responses for you, IF we can get past the name calling, shouting, false allegations, the usual banter that ensues.

I have more questions along with a realistic way to eliminate the issue altogether.

but, you call them "illegal aliens" when they've neverbeen arrested much less convicted of a damn thing




What kind of retarded thinking is that?


They cross our borders illegally they are criminals


They over stay their visas they are criminals

No sir, they absolutely are NOT criminals. What's retarded in this country are stupid people who ignore the Constitution of the United States and some fundamental principles. I keep quoting Tom Paine, one of our country's founders. When it comes to anti-immigrants, they can't understand it. Let me repeat it, then I'll explain it to you:

"An avidity to punish is always dangerous to liberty. It leads men to stretch, to misinterpret, and to misapply even the best of laws. He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." A Dissertation on the First Principles of Government (1795)

The FIRST misapplication of the law is that insist on calling undocumented foreigners "illegal aliens" and assure us they are criminals and so forth. They take the entire concept of innocent until proven guilty / presumption of innocence and toss it out the window.

When that precedent is used on them, they scratch their heads and if it happens to be them, they are really pissed with the LEO community. People are raging mad in the United States at the LEOs. How can they beat people in the streets and even shoot them without due process?

The real reason that stuff happens is that the anti-immigrant lobby and the Tea Party types envision a total POLICE STATE for America. They love the idea of cops watching them 24 / 7 / 365. They like the idea of the pee test, blood test, driver's license, Socialist Security Number ...ooops "Social Security Number," birth certificate, criminal background check, credit check, drones in the sky and zero constitutional protections against warrant-less search and seizures.

Under our constitutional / legal / dejure U.S. Constitution everybody is entitled to the equal protection of the laws. See the 14th Amendment. IF a foreigner is a criminal absent due process then EVERY AMERICAN IS GUILTY OF SOME KIND OF CRIME. A cop once told me that if you don't have a record, it's only because you haven't been caught yet.

I can thank people like you for this atmosphere of fear, paranoia, and what is little more than a National Socialist approach to the issues at hand... all which was a great deflection to keep from answering MY question.

While it is true under our law, one is presumed innocent until proven guilty by due process, that doesn't determine the reality of one's guilt or innocence. For example, I could possibly wear a mask and rob a bank and never be caught. Am I guilty of robbing the bank since I've never been convicted? Of course I am (if I were to have actually robbed a bank); the act of robbing the bank is what makes me guilty of robbing the bank. Likewise, if a person enters the country illegally to stay, that act makes the person an illegal immigrant.


Some posters to this thread are for open borders. I can respect that. For those that are for open boarders, they should be for changing the law to reflect that. We as a country need to decide whether we are going to have laws to restrict immigration or not!

First, it is borders not boarders. It damages your credibility when you cannot spell the issue correctly.

Whether or not a person is guilty or not of robbing a bank is not as relevant as to whether they are presumed innocent or not. It's really a separate issue, but the build the wall guys want to build their case at an expense to the Rights and Freedoms of all Americans. That includes their own, BTW.

Should we have open borders?

The answer is a resounding yes. Why?

It takes a complete and total POLICE STATE in order to enforce the National Socialist utopia envisioned by the build the wall types. What you have to lose is greater than what you have to gain.

All the build the wall guys want to talk about are what they see as their strongest talking points, but not where the road ultimately takes them. In fifteen years, they have never even attempted to answer my questions (a previous post contains one of those questions.)

The symptoms they fear can be dealt with more effectively without the assault on Liberty.

 

[JoeMoma]

How should illegal immigration be controlled? It seems that the mindset of the sanctuary city/state crowd is that once a person arrives illegally (or over stays a visa), that person should be welcomed to stay, establish permanent residence, become legally employed, receive government services, acquire a driver’s license, enroll children into public schools, and eventually seek citizenship and have the right to vote. In other words, the illegal immigrant is to be granted all the rights, benefits and protections as legal immigrants. How can we control immigration if we don’t treat illegal immigration as a crime and allow illegal immigrants to simply blend into our society? Also, if you believe we should have open boarders making all immigrants legal, just say so!

You asked for it so no name calling. I am right of center and have never voted for nor supported a liberal, democrat, or anyone left of center.

In my view there should be no such thing as "illegal immigration." As one of our founding fathers put it:

"An avidity to punish is always dangerous to liberty. It leads men to stretch, to misinterpret, and to misapply even the best of laws. He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." A Dissertation on the First Principles of Government (1795)

Early in America's history, people came from every corner of the earth to take advantage of opportunities willingly offered. At the same time, nobody except whites could become citizens.

Why we think that everybody that washes up on our shores should become a citizen, get a free education, be afforded welfare, be extended the privilege of voting and force their beliefs down our throats has always been a mystery to me - ESPECIALLY when those people fled somewhere to come here.

I've been kicked like a dog on these discussion boards because those advocating the ultimate POLICE STATE cannot see the end game for which they are fighting. Let us pretend that you win.

You build a wall. You kick out all the undocumented foreigners (you really want to call them expletive deleted) but, you call them "illegal aliens" when they've never been arrested much less convicted of a damn thing. So, anyway you kick them out along with their America born children. Lock the door on the wall and throw away the key. Problem solved. Right? Wrong.

The American born children of foreigners are American citizens whether we like it or not - agree with it or not. You send them back south of the border and in a few years they start showing up at the border with their Socialist Surveillance Number ...ooops. "Social Security Number" and a birth certificate. They want to come home. Sorry guys, you can't keep them out. They are American citizens and you cannot challenge their citizenship (ex post facto laws are prohibited in the Constitution.)

So, they start coming here in droves. They no longer speak English; they have no family support system (you deported that family); they will most likely have no money, education or job skills. Now what do you do? I've been asking this for a dozen or more years and have never gotten a direct / honest / realistic answer.

You can give me all that "open border" paranoia all you want, but that is only one question I have to counter you with. I do have well reasoned responses for you, IF we can get past the name calling, shouting, false allegations, the usual banter that ensues.

I have more questions along with a realistic way to eliminate the issue altogether.

but, you call them "illegal aliens" when they've neverbeen arrested much less convicted of a damn thing




What kind of retarded thinking is that?


They cross our borders illegally they are criminals


They over stay their visas they are criminals

No sir, they absolutely are NOT criminals. What's retarded in this country are stupid people who ignore the Constitution of the United States and some fundamental principles. I keep quoting Tom Paine, one of our country's founders. When it comes to anti-immigrants, they can't understand it. Let me repeat it, then I'll explain it to you:

"An avidity to punish is always dangerous to liberty. It leads men to stretch, to misinterpret, and to misapply even the best of laws. He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." A Dissertation on the First Principles of Government (1795)

The FIRST misapplication of the law is that insist on calling undocumented foreigners "illegal aliens" and assure us they are criminals and so forth. They take the entire concept of innocent until proven guilty / presumption of innocence and toss it out the window.

When that precedent is used on them, they scratch their heads and if it happens to be them, they are really pissed with the LEO community. People are raging mad in the United States at the LEOs. How can they beat people in the streets and even shoot them without due process?

The real reason that stuff happens is that the anti-immigrant lobby and the Tea Party types envision a total POLICE STATE for America. They love the idea of cops watching them 24 / 7 / 365. They like the idea of the pee test, blood test, driver's license, Socialist Security Number ...ooops "Social Security Number," birth certificate, criminal background check, credit check, drones in the sky and zero constitutional protections against warrant-less search and seizures.

Under our constitutional / legal / dejure U.S. Constitution everybody is entitled to the equal protection of the laws. See the 14th Amendment. IF a foreigner is a criminal absent due process then EVERY AMERICAN IS GUILTY OF SOME KIND OF CRIME. A cop once told me that if you don't have a record, it's only because you haven't been caught yet.

I can thank people like you for this atmosphere of fear, paranoia, and what is little more than a National Socialist approach to the issues at hand... all which was a great deflection to keep from answering MY question.

While it is true under our law, one is presumed innocent until proven guilty by due process, that doesn't determine the reality of one's guilt or innocence. For example, I could possibly wear a mask and rob a bank and never be caught. Am I guilty of robbing the bank since I've never been convicted? Of course I am (if I were to have actually robbed a bank); the act of robbing the bank is what makes me guilty of robbing the bank. Likewise, if a person enters the country illegally to stay, that act makes the person an illegal immigrant.


Some posters to this thread are for open borders. I can respect that. For those that are for open boarders, they should be for changing the law to reflect that. We as a country need to decide whether we are going to have laws to restrict immigration or not!

First, it is borders not boarders. It damages your credibility when you cannot spell the issue correctly.

Whether or not a person is guilty or not of robbing a bank is not as relevant as to whether they are presumed innocent or not. It's really a separate issue, but the build the wall guys want to build their case at an expense to the Rights and Freedoms of all Americans. That includes their own, BTW.

Should we have open borders?

The answer is a resounding yes. Why?

It takes a complete and total POLICE STATE in order to enforce the National Socialist utopia envisioned by the build the wall types. What you have to lose is greater than what you have to gain.

All the build the wall guys want to talk about are what they see as their strongest talking points, but not where the road ultimately takes them. In fifteen years, they have never even attempted to answer my questions (a previous post contains one of those questions.)

The symptoms they fear can be dealt with more effectively without the assault on Liberty.

I suck at spelling.... if that hurts my credibility, so be it. Not that I don't try to get spelling right... but I'm not going to adhere to an elaborate proof reading process for a message board.

 

[danielpalos]

How should illegal immigration be controlled? It seems that the mindset of the sanctuary city/state crowd is that once a person arrives illegally (or over stays a visa), that person should be welcomed to stay, establish permanent residence, become legally employed, receive government services, acquire a driver’s license, enroll children into public schools, and eventually seek citizenship and have the right to vote. In other words, the illegal immigrant is to be granted all the rights, benefits and protections as legal immigrants. How can we control immigration if we don’t treat illegal immigration as a crime and allow illegal immigrants to simply blend into our society? Also, if you believe we should have open boarders making all immigrants legal, just say so!

At the federal borders because this is a federal problem since 1808, not a State problem, since then.

A market friendly visa program that allows participants to "try their luck" in our markets; would be a boon to any State that generates revenue from tourism.

A federal id should be a requirement.

Revenue from the visa system could help fund unemployment compensation on an at-will basis in our at-will employment States, so native labor can, "retool."

Article 1, Section 9.
The migration or importation of such persons as any of the states now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each person.

The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.

No bill of attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

No capitation, or other direct, tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken.

No tax or duty shall be laid on articles exported from any state.

There seems to be enough, latitude of construction, to permit States to charge up to ten dollars to ensure lawful Commerce in their markets.

 

[Humorme]

You asked for it so no name calling. I am right of center and have never voted for nor supported a liberal, democrat, or anyone left of center.

In my view there should be no such thing as "illegal immigration." As one of our founding fathers put it:

"An avidity to punish is always dangerous to liberty. It leads men to stretch, to misinterpret, and to misapply even the best of laws. He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." A Dissertation on the First Principles of Government (1795)

Early in America's history, people came from every corner of the earth to take advantage of opportunities willingly offered. At the same time, nobody except whites could become citizens.

Why we think that everybody that washes up on our shores should become a citizen, get a free education, be afforded welfare, be extended the privilege of voting and force their beliefs down our throats has always been a mystery to me - ESPECIALLY when those people fled somewhere to come here.

I've been kicked like a dog on these discussion boards because those advocating the ultimate POLICE STATE cannot see the end game for which they are fighting. Let us pretend that you win.

You build a wall. You kick out all the undocumented foreigners (you really want to call them expletive deleted) but, you call them "illegal aliens" when they've never been arrested much less convicted of a damn thing. So, anyway you kick them out along with their America born children. Lock the door on the wall and throw away the key. Problem solved. Right? Wrong.

The American born children of foreigners are American citizens whether we like it or not - agree with it or not. You send them back south of the border and in a few years they start showing up at the border with their Socialist Surveillance Number ...ooops. "Social Security Number" and a birth certificate. They want to come home. Sorry guys, you can't keep them out. They are American citizens and you cannot challenge their citizenship (ex post facto laws are prohibited in the Constitution.)

So, they start coming here in droves. They no longer speak English; they have no family support system (you deported that family); they will most likely have no money, education or job skills. Now what do you do? I've been asking this for a dozen or more years and have never gotten a direct / honest / realistic answer.

You can give me all that "open border" paranoia all you want, but that is only one question I have to counter you with. I do have well reasoned responses for you, IF we can get past the name calling, shouting, false allegations, the usual banter that ensues.

I have more questions along with a realistic way to eliminate the issue altogether.

but, you call them "illegal aliens" when they've neverbeen arrested much less convicted of a damn thing




What kind of retarded thinking is that?


They cross our borders illegally they are criminals


They over stay their visas they are criminals

No sir, they absolutely are NOT criminals. What's retarded in this country are stupid people who ignore the Constitution of the United States and some fundamental principles. I keep quoting Tom Paine, one of our country's founders. When it comes to anti-immigrants, they can't understand it. Let me repeat it, then I'll explain it to you:

"An avidity to punish is always dangerous to liberty. It leads men to stretch, to misinterpret, and to misapply even the best of laws. He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." A Dissertation on the First Principles of Government (1795)

The FIRST misapplication of the law is that insist on calling undocumented foreigners "illegal aliens" and assure us they are criminals and so forth. They take the entire concept of innocent until proven guilty / presumption of innocence and toss it out the window.

When that precedent is used on them, they scratch their heads and if it happens to be them, they are really pissed with the LEO community. People are raging mad in the United States at the LEOs. How can they beat people in the streets and even shoot them without due process?

The real reason that stuff happens is that the anti-immigrant lobby and the Tea Party types envision a total POLICE STATE for America. They love the idea of cops watching them 24 / 7 / 365. They like the idea of the pee test, blood test, driver's license, Socialist Security Number ...ooops "Social Security Number," birth certificate, criminal background check, credit check, drones in the sky and zero constitutional protections against warrant-less search and seizures.

Under our constitutional / legal / dejure U.S. Constitution everybody is entitled to the equal protection of the laws. See the 14th Amendment. IF a foreigner is a criminal absent due process then EVERY AMERICAN IS GUILTY OF SOME KIND OF CRIME. A cop once told me that if you don't have a record, it's only because you haven't been caught yet.

I can thank people like you for this atmosphere of fear, paranoia, and what is little more than a National Socialist approach to the issues at hand... all which was a great deflection to keep from answering MY question.

While it is true under our law, one is presumed innocent until proven guilty by due process, that doesn't determine the reality of one's guilt or innocence. For example, I could possibly wear a mask and rob a bank and never be caught. Am I guilty of robbing the bank since I've never been convicted? Of course I am (if I were to have actually robbed a bank); the act of robbing the bank is what makes me guilty of robbing the bank. Likewise, if a person enters the country illegally to stay, that act makes the person an illegal immigrant.


Some posters to this thread are for open borders. I can respect that. For those that are for open boarders, they should be for changing the law to reflect that. We as a country need to decide whether we are going to have laws to restrict immigration or not!

First, it is borders not boarders. It damages your credibility when you cannot spell the issue correctly.

Whether or not a person is guilty or not of robbing a bank is not as relevant as to whether they are presumed innocent or not. It's really a separate issue, but the build the wall guys want to build their case at an expense to the Rights and Freedoms of all Americans. That includes their own, BTW.

Should we have open borders?

The answer is a resounding yes. Why?

It takes a complete and total POLICE STATE in order to enforce the National Socialist utopia envisioned by the build the wall types. What you have to lose is greater than what you have to gain.

All the build the wall guys want to talk about are what they see as their strongest talking points, but not where the road ultimately takes them. In fifteen years, they have never even attempted to answer my questions (a previous post contains one of those questions.)

The symptoms they fear can be dealt with more effectively without the assault on Liberty.

I suck at spelling.... if that hurts my credibility, so be it. Not that I don't try to get spelling right... but I'm not going to adhere to an elaborate proof reading process for a message board.

I catch hell all the time, but the left will crucify you over not knowing how to spell the subject you care about.

Anyway, since you didn't answer my last question, I trust you will be thinking about it??? Let me give you another scenario:

Suppose that you "win." The wall goes up and we do all these deportations. Let's say it works out exactly the way you want it to.

Have you stopped to consider that once that happens Uncle Scam then would have to turn those ninja clad federal mercenaries loose on YOU? There will always be new laws and new bogeys to go after.

Those on the right don't seem to get it. The LEO community isn't into laying off cops. Last night they had a special on about the 25th anniversary about the attack on the Branch Davidians. It reinforced in my mind why I do not trust a government so big it cannot be resisted. And, despite all that was learned from Waco, the build the wall guys think that this omnipotent form of government can serve them well.

They cannot understand that the drones used to police so - called "illegal aliens" will be the same, identical LEO effort that is used against alleged domestic terrorists, enemy combatants, racists, tax protesters, etc. WHEN the political pendulum swings back the opposite direction (and it always does) the left is in charge and the same treatment you want to dish out is dished out to you. Not guilty of being a domestic terrorist? You might own a firearm and disagree with the libs. You're a terrorist. You advocated for a position of presuming people guilty and no due process. Think you're not an enemy combatant? Check out some of the posts on this board by extreme black liberals. Give them that power that cannot be resisted and those ninja clad terrorists you used to lock down the border.

I came up with a twelve point program that would not increase the size, power and /or scope of government. It won't increase taxes. But, the build the walls guys have no intention of ever considering it. It does not punish their political enemies. It illustrates the fact that Thomas Paine was right all along.

 

[JoeMoma]

but, you call them "illegal aliens" when they've neverbeen arrested much less convicted of a damn thing




What kind of retarded thinking is that?


They cross our borders illegally they are criminals


They over stay their visas they are criminals

No sir, they absolutely are NOT criminals. What's retarded in this country are stupid people who ignore the Constitution of the United States and some fundamental principles. I keep quoting Tom Paine, one of our country's founders. When it comes to anti-immigrants, they can't understand it. Let me repeat it, then I'll explain it to you:

"An avidity to punish is always dangerous to liberty. It leads men to stretch, to misinterpret, and to misapply even the best of laws. He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." A Dissertation on the First Principles of Government (1795)

The FIRST misapplication of the law is that insist on calling undocumented foreigners "illegal aliens" and assure us they are criminals and so forth. They take the entire concept of innocent until proven guilty / presumption of innocence and toss it out the window.

When that precedent is used on them, they scratch their heads and if it happens to be them, they are really pissed with the LEO community. People are raging mad in the United States at the LEOs. How can they beat people in the streets and even shoot them without due process?

The real reason that stuff happens is that the anti-immigrant lobby and the Tea Party types envision a total POLICE STATE for America. They love the idea of cops watching them 24 / 7 / 365. They like the idea of the pee test, blood test, driver's license, Socialist Security Number ...ooops "Social Security Number," birth certificate, criminal background check, credit check, drones in the sky and zero constitutional protections against warrant-less search and seizures.

Under our constitutional / legal / dejure U.S. Constitution everybody is entitled to the equal protection of the laws. See the 14th Amendment. IF a foreigner is a criminal absent due process then EVERY AMERICAN IS GUILTY OF SOME KIND OF CRIME. A cop once told me that if you don't have a record, it's only because you haven't been caught yet.

I can thank people like you for this atmosphere of fear, paranoia, and what is little more than a National Socialist approach to the issues at hand... all which was a great deflection to keep from answering MY question.

While it is true under our law, one is presumed innocent until proven guilty by due process, that doesn't determine the reality of one's guilt or innocence. For example, I could possibly wear a mask and rob a bank and never be caught. Am I guilty of robbing the bank since I've never been convicted? Of course I am (if I were to have actually robbed a bank); the act of robbing the bank is what makes me guilty of robbing the bank. Likewise, if a person enters the country illegally to stay, that act makes the person an illegal immigrant.


Some posters to this thread are for open borders. I can respect that. For those that are for open boarders, they should be for changing the law to reflect that. We as a country need to decide whether we are going to have laws to restrict immigration or not!

First, it is borders not boarders. It damages your credibility when you cannot spell the issue correctly.

Whether or not a person is guilty or not of robbing a bank is not as relevant as to whether they are presumed innocent or not. It's really a separate issue, but the build the wall guys want to build their case at an expense to the Rights and Freedoms of all Americans. That includes their own, BTW.

Should we have open borders?

The answer is a resounding yes. Why?

It takes a complete and total POLICE STATE in order to enforce the National Socialist utopia envisioned by the build the wall types. What you have to lose is greater than what you have to gain.

All the build the wall guys want to talk about are what they see as their strongest talking points, but not where the road ultimately takes them. In fifteen years, they have never even attempted to answer my questions (a previous post contains one of those questions.)

The symptoms they fear can be dealt with more effectively without the assault on Liberty.

I suck at spelling.... if that hurts my credibility, so be it. Not that I don't try to get spelling right... but I'm not going to adhere to an elaborate proof reading process for a message board.

I catch hell all the time, but the left will crucify you over not knowing how to spell the subject you care about.

Anyway, since you didn't answer my last question, I trust you will be thinking about it??? Let me give you another scenario:

Suppose that you "win." The wall goes up and we do all these deportations. Let's say it works out exactly the way you want it to.

Have you stopped to consider that once that happens Uncle Scam then would have to turn those ninja clad federal mercenaries loose on YOU? There will always be new laws and new bogeys to go after.

Those on the right don't seem to get it. The LEO community isn't into laying off cops. Last night they had a special on about the 25th anniversary about the attack on the Branch Davidians. It reinforced in my mind why I do not trust a government so big it cannot be resisted. And, despite all that was learned from Waco, the build the wall guys think that this omnipotent form of government can serve them well.

They cannot understand that the drones used to police so - called "illegal aliens" will be the same, identical LEO effort that is used against alleged domestic terrorists, enemy combatants, racists, tax protesters, etc. WHEN the political pendulum swings back the opposite direction (and it always does) the left is in charge and the same treatment you want to dish out is dished out to you. Not guilty of being a domestic terrorist? You might own a firearm and disagree with the libs. You're a terrorist. You advocated for a position of presuming people guilty and no due process. Think you're not an enemy combatant? Check out some of the posts on this board by extreme black liberals. Give them that power that cannot be resisted and those ninja clad terrorists you used to lock down the border.

I came up with a twelve point program that would not increase the size, power and /or scope of government. It won't increase taxes. But, the build the walls guys have no intention of ever considering it. It does not punish their political enemies. It illustrates the fact that Thomas Paine was right all along.

I will be thinking over what you wrote as you have given me food for thought. I am actually not necessary a build the wall guy. I'm trying to stay open minded. I had to start back to work today after the holidays, so I don't have quite as much time on my hands.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

How should illegal immigration be controlled? It seems that the mindset of the sanctuary city/state crowd is that once a person arrives illegally (or over stays a visa), that person should be welcomed to stay, establish permanent residence, become legally employed, receive government services, acquire a driver’s license, enroll children into public schools, and eventually seek citizenship and have the right to vote. In other words, the illegal immigrant is to be granted all the rights, benefits and protections as legal immigrants. How can we control immigration if we don’t treat illegal immigration as a crime and allow illegal immigrants to simply blend into our society? Also, if you believe we should have open boarders making all immigrants legal, just say so!

Loaded question fallacy.

 

[JoeMoma]

How should illegal immigration be controlled? It seems that the mindset of the sanctuary city/state crowd is that once a person arrives illegally (or over stays a visa), that person should be welcomed to stay, establish permanent residence, become legally employed, receive government services, acquire a driver’s license, enroll children into public schools, and eventually seek citizenship and have the right to vote. In other words, the illegal immigrant is to be granted all the rights, benefits and protections as legal immigrants. How can we control immigration if we don’t treat illegal immigration as a crime and allow illegal immigrants to simply blend into our society? Also, if you believe we should have open boarders making all immigrants legal, just say so!

Loaded question fallacy.

You are a drive by fallacy mislabeling machine.

 

[Humorme]

No sir, they absolutely are NOT criminals. What's retarded in this country are stupid people who ignore the Constitution of the United States and some fundamental principles. I keep quoting Tom Paine, one of our country's founders. When it comes to anti-immigrants, they can't understand it. Let me repeat it, then I'll explain it to you:

"An avidity to punish is always dangerous to liberty. It leads men to stretch, to misinterpret, and to misapply even the best of laws. He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." A Dissertation on the First Principles of Government (1795)

The FIRST misapplication of the law is that insist on calling undocumented foreigners "illegal aliens" and assure us they are criminals and so forth. They take the entire concept of innocent until proven guilty / presumption of innocence and toss it out the window.

When that precedent is used on them, they scratch their heads and if it happens to be them, they are really pissed with the LEO community. People are raging mad in the United States at the LEOs. How can they beat people in the streets and even shoot them without due process?

The real reason that stuff happens is that the anti-immigrant lobby and the Tea Party types envision a total POLICE STATE for America. They love the idea of cops watching them 24 / 7 / 365. They like the idea of the pee test, blood test, driver's license, Socialist Security Number ...ooops "Social Security Number," birth certificate, criminal background check, credit check, drones in the sky and zero constitutional protections against warrant-less search and seizures.

Under our constitutional / legal / dejure U.S. Constitution everybody is entitled to the equal protection of the laws. See the 14th Amendment. IF a foreigner is a criminal absent due process then EVERY AMERICAN IS GUILTY OF SOME KIND OF CRIME. A cop once told me that if you don't have a record, it's only because you haven't been caught yet.

I can thank people like you for this atmosphere of fear, paranoia, and what is little more than a National Socialist approach to the issues at hand... all which was a great deflection to keep from answering MY question.

While it is true under our law, one is presumed innocent until proven guilty by due process, that doesn't determine the reality of one's guilt or innocence. For example, I could possibly wear a mask and rob a bank and never be caught. Am I guilty of robbing the bank since I've never been convicted? Of course I am (if I were to have actually robbed a bank); the act of robbing the bank is what makes me guilty of robbing the bank. Likewise, if a person enters the country illegally to stay, that act makes the person an illegal immigrant.


Some posters to this thread are for open borders. I can respect that. For those that are for open boarders, they should be for changing the law to reflect that. We as a country need to decide whether we are going to have laws to restrict immigration or not!

First, it is borders not boarders. It damages your credibility when you cannot spell the issue correctly.

Whether or not a person is guilty or not of robbing a bank is not as relevant as to whether they are presumed innocent or not. It's really a separate issue, but the build the wall guys want to build their case at an expense to the Rights and Freedoms of all Americans. That includes their own, BTW.

Should we have open borders?

The answer is a resounding yes. Why?

It takes a complete and total POLICE STATE in order to enforce the National Socialist utopia envisioned by the build the wall types. What you have to lose is greater than what you have to gain.

All the build the wall guys want to talk about are what they see as their strongest talking points, but not where the road ultimately takes them. In fifteen years, they have never even attempted to answer my questions (a previous post contains one of those questions.)

The symptoms they fear can be dealt with more effectively without the assault on Liberty.

I suck at spelling.... if that hurts my credibility, so be it. Not that I don't try to get spelling right... but I'm not going to adhere to an elaborate proof reading process for a message board.

I catch hell all the time, but the left will crucify you over not knowing how to spell the subject you care about.

Anyway, since you didn't answer my last question, I trust you will be thinking about it??? Let me give you another scenario:

Suppose that you "win." The wall goes up and we do all these deportations. Let's say it works out exactly the way you want it to.

Have you stopped to consider that once that happens Uncle Scam then would have to turn those ninja clad federal mercenaries loose on YOU? There will always be new laws and new bogeys to go after.

Those on the right don't seem to get it. The LEO community isn't into laying off cops. Last night they had a special on about the 25th anniversary about the attack on the Branch Davidians. It reinforced in my mind why I do not trust a government so big it cannot be resisted. And, despite all that was learned from Waco, the build the wall guys think that this omnipotent form of government can serve them well.

They cannot understand that the drones used to police so - called "illegal aliens" will be the same, identical LEO effort that is used against alleged domestic terrorists, enemy combatants, racists, tax protesters, etc. WHEN the political pendulum swings back the opposite direction (and it always does) the left is in charge and the same treatment you want to dish out is dished out to you. Not guilty of being a domestic terrorist? You might own a firearm and disagree with the libs. You're a terrorist. You advocated for a position of presuming people guilty and no due process. Think you're not an enemy combatant? Check out some of the posts on this board by extreme black liberals. Give them that power that cannot be resisted and those ninja clad terrorists you used to lock down the border.

I came up with a twelve point program that would not increase the size, power and /or scope of government. It won't increase taxes. But, the build the walls guys have no intention of ever considering it. It does not punish their political enemies. It illustrates the fact that Thomas Paine was right all along.

I will be thinking over what you wrote as you have given me food for thought. I am actually not necessary a build the wall guy. I'm trying to stay open minded. I had to start back to work today after the holidays, so I don't have quite as much time on my hands.

I heard that. I get defensive over this subject and spend too much time on the Internet. But, we can have a good conversation about this. You have to figure out who the trolls are and ignore their B.S.

One indicator: They will have to quote every single sentence posted and pretend to disagree with concocted lies that have been debunked time and time again.

 

[Liquid Reigns]

In my view there should be no such thing as "illegal immigration." As one of our founding fathers put it:

"An avidity to punish is always dangerous to liberty. It leads men to stretch, to misinterpret, and to misapply even the best of laws. He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." A Dissertation on the First Principles of Government (1795)

You are certainly entitled to your interpretation, but our laws and our history do not agree with your interpretation.

Early in America's history, people came from every corner of the earth to take advantage of opportunities willingly offered. At the same time, nobody except whites could become citizens.

No they didn't. Most of those coming here were from Europe and England. The blacks that were brought here were as indentured servants and slaves. There were no Asians and no middle easterners here until the 1800's.

Why we think that everybody that washes up on our shores should become a citizen, get a free education, be afforded welfare, be extended the privilege of voting and force their beliefs down our throats has always been a mystery to me - ESPECIALLY when those people fled somewhere to come here.

We don't think that, that is why there are numerous visas that are not immigrant visas.

I've been kicked like a dog on these discussion boards because those advocating the ultimate POLICE STATE cannot see the end game for which they are fighting. Let us pretend that you win.

What Liberties have you lost from immigration laws?

You build a wall. You kick out all the undocumented foreigners (you really want to call them expletive deleted) but, you call them "illegal aliens" when they've never been arrested much less convicted of a damn thing. So, anyway you kick them out along with their America born children. Lock the door on the wall and throw away the key. Problem solved. Right? Wrong.

Immigrants are here at the behest of our country allowing them to be here, we have the right as a nation to remove them for any reason we see fit.

The American born children of foreigners are American citizens whether we like it or not - agree with it or not. You send them back south of the border and in a few years they start showing up at the border with their Socialist Surveillance Number ...ooops. "Social Security Number" and a birth certificate. They want to come home. Sorry guys, you can't keep them out. They are American citizens and you cannot challenge their citizenship (ex post facto laws are prohibited in the Constitution.)

So much bloviation and assumption. Children may or may not be born US Citizens. If they are removed along with their parents, never received a SS number (which doesn't prove citizenship at all), may receive a birth certificate stating the location they were born and to whom the parents are (a birth certificate does not prove citizenship), then how is it they will be expected to show up at the border demanding to be let in? Home isn't necessarily where you were born. SMFH

So, they start coming here in droves. They no longer speak English; they have no family support system (you deported that family); they will most likely have no money, education or job skills. Now what do you do? I've been asking this for a dozen or more years and have never gotten a direct / honest / realistic answer.

How will they be coming here in droves if most can't legally enter due to not having a recognized US Citizenship? You have gotten your answer numerous times, you just choose to fail to accept reality based on your exaggerated ideals.

You can give me all that "open border" paranoia all you want, but that is only one question I have to counter you with. I do have well reasoned responses for you, IF we can get past the name calling, shouting, false allegations, the usual banter that ensues.

I have more questions along with a realistic way to eliminate the issue altogether.

How about you get passed the exaggerations and failed interpretations first?

 

[Liquid Reigns]

85% of our crops will rot in the field without illegally migrant workers. They deserve sanctuary in all 50 states.

LOL, less than 50% of field workers are illegals, how do you then suppose over 85% of our crops will rot? SMFH
Many crops can be harvested with machines, its the up front expense to the farmer as to why he doesn't purchase them and not hire manual labor.

 

[Liquid Reigns]

The OP wishes to shred the US Constitution & institute a Police State to kill, arrest or remove undesirables, build a wall & put the country on lock down.

Are you for open boarders, in other words — everyone is welcome?

he's for open borders.
Not open citizenship.
No welfare, no social system to lure them in, no free lunch.
Everyone free to go anywhere they can afford to get to but with no Federal hand outs to lure them there.

Federal handouts are very, very limited, it is the state handouts that you should be focused on.

 

[Liquid Reigns]

No sir, they absolutely are NOT criminals. What's retarded in this country are stupid people who ignore the Constitution of the United States and some fundamental principles. I keep quoting Tom Paine, one of our country's founders. When it comes to anti-immigrants, they can't understand it. Let me repeat it, then I'll explain it to you:

"An avidity to punish is always dangerous to liberty. It leads men to stretch, to misinterpret, and to misapply even the best of laws. He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." A Dissertation on the First Principles of Government (1795)

Maybe you should first understand that document and the very documents that led up to it before you start calling people retarded or claim they are ignoring the USC. Your quote of Paine doesn't help one understand or even interpret the USC

The FIRST misapplication of the law is that insist on calling undocumented foreigners "illegal aliens" and assure us they are criminals and so forth. They take the entire concept of innocent until proven guilty / presumption of innocence and toss it out the window.

Immigration law is much different then criminal/civil law. A foreigner doesn't have to be convicted of a crime to be removed from our country, nor do they need to be convicted to be called illegal immigrants for violating our entry laws. Their rights are very limited and they do not hold all the same rights as a citizen.

When that precedent is used on them, they scratch their heads and if it happens to be them, they are really pissed with the LEO community. People are raging mad in the United States at the LEOs. How can they beat people in the streets and even shoot them without due process?

LEO is much different then BP and ICE. BP and ICE deal strictly with foreigners. When local LEO screws up they are held liable and punished.

The real reason that stuff happens is that the anti-immigrant lobby and the Tea Party types envision a total POLICE STATE for America. They love the idea of cops watching them 24 / 7 / 365. They like the idea of the pee test, blood test, driver's license, Socialist Security Number ...ooops "Social Security Number," birth certificate, criminal background check, credit check, drones in the sky and zero constitutional protections against warrant-less search and seizures.

blah, blah, blah. Don't like it here......leave, or do your damnedest to get the laws changed. Until then......the laws are what they are and most have been challenged to be constitutional or not already. :SHRUG:

Under our constitutional / legal / dejure U.S. Constitution everybody is entitled to the equal protection of the laws. See the 14th Amendment. IF a foreigner is a criminal absent due process then EVERY AMERICAN IS GUILTY OF SOME KIND OF CRIME. A cop once told me that if you don't have a record, it's only because you haven't been caught yet.

Back to your interpretations and exaggerations. :YAWN:

I can thank people like you for this atmosphere of fear, paranoia, and what is little more than a National Socialist approach to the issues at hand... all which was a great deflection to keep from answering MY question.

You don't even know what a National Socialist even is. LMFAO

 

[Liquid Reigns]

At the federal borders because this is a federal problem since 1808, not a State problem, since then.

Using a slave paragraph from the USC that has since been dropped by the very language of the USC doesn't bode well for your argument.

A market friendly visa program that allows participants to "try their luck" in our markets; would be a boon to any State that generates revenue from tourism.

This is already in place, its called the VWP (Visa Waiver Program).

A federal id should be a requirement.

It's called the US Passport.

Revenue from the visa system could help fund unemployment compensation on an at-will basis in our at-will employment States, so native labor can, "retool."

The revenue should go to fund the visa program and all involved in it such as DHS, etc.

 

[Liquid Reigns]

What you're saying is absolute stupidity. It was people like you that bitched and wailed when Obama would kneel before third world potentates. Yet you and Barack Obama want the same thing for America: You advocate the same laws.

And yet WillMunny is 100% correct. gofigure

Get this through your head: This is the United States of America. This nation was conceived in Liberty and it became the GREATEST NATION IN THE ANNALS OF HISTORY. What made us great was an idea, a presupposition, and the advancement of that idea into a document of which the author stated was the "declaratory charter of the rights of man." Let me share an excerpt from that document:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Declaration of Independence

Again your interpretation that is greatly exaggerated and outside of both historical fact and the color of law. The only stupidity around here is yours, so own it.

You should look up the word LIBERTY. It has a meaning. Liberty is not granted by government, it is a Right that is above the reach of mortal men.

And yet government, granted by man, can limit liberty. Welcome to living in society.

Early in our country's history, people came from every corner of the earth in search of opportunities. At the same time, only whites could become citizens. Only whites could hold public office. We were controlling immigration without walls, drones, or the POLICE STATE. In those days the government did not tell employers who they could and could not hire. The government did not require us to provide foreigners with a free education. There were no welfare agencies or government freebies for the foreigner to expect would cater to them.

No they didn't. Asians and Middle Easterners didn't get here until the middle to late 1800's, 200 years after discovery and first settlements by Europeans. Whites were merely allowed to naturalize at the federal level, there were many blacks who were citizens of said state they lived in, there were even blacks that were in local and state governments. I suggest you take an actual history class to learn the very things you choose not to recognize in your White Nationalist ignorance.

And yet, despite all of that, America did not go down the tubes. We sent more soldiers into battle than any other country on the planet. And that was always for some other country's benefit, not ours. We put more missionaries on foreign soil than all other countries combined! We became the economic powerhouse of the world, all the while having a Statue of Liberty welcoming people from everywhere in the world.

The Statue of Liberty was in the harbor for more than 30 years before it even became a Progressive symbol of welcoming. Why did the Asians landing in San Francisco never pass by the Statue? SMFH

By contrast, the people like yourself have endorsed the so - called "Patriot Act," the National ID / REAL ID Act, National Defense Authorization Act, the end to innocent until proven guilty / presumption of innocence, the end of private property Rights, and worse. There is never enough government for you people.

:YAWN:

Issues that can be solved at the local level and by individuals having the Freedom and Liberty to make their own decisions don't need your Big Government Solutions.

And yet by our own constitution the feds are in charge of immigrants and foreign relations. :SHRUG:

With minimal effort I could end the immigration issue for you and it would never be a problem in the future. But, some people are stuck on stupid and never want to hear the whole story so long as the political propaganda prostitutes continue reciting the same fairy tales over and over and over again. You're so focused on the symptoms and the Hegelian solutions (if you can call regression a solution) that you can't think outside the box.

You couldn't figure out how to get out of a wet paper bag let alone end the immigration issue. :YAWN: