Zone1 Question for Christians

[Meriweather]

That's interesting and all, but mainstream Christianity in the US is not necessarily the same as world wide.

Mainstream is mainstream. Using only a select area doesn't meet the qualifications of "mainstream".

 

[JohnDB]

And that is exactly the same kind of gobbeldy gook that means nothing that I always receive, if I get any answer at all.

I tried to be clear....sorry. oh well.

 

[Votto]

The concepts of charity and forgiveness were quite prevelent before Christianity. Ask the Jews about that.

Well using the Hebrew teachings is not fair, is it, because it came from the same God.

 

[Dadoalex]

Paul was discussing and explaining what had happened to the Pharaoh's in Egypt during the 10 plagues as well as the rivalry between Jacob and Esau.

And what most people miss is that the Pharaoh's hardened their own hearts before God did it for them. IOW they were given the choice until they weren't. Meaning that where God is patient...that patience is not inexhaustible. Esau wanted "one last party" before settling down into his role....and missed out on the blessing while doing so.
Again not proper attitudes.

Jesus again explained this human condition in the parable of the different soils. Some people are never and will never honor God.

You choose to be who you want to be. The choice is yours. Who are you?

Having a relationship with God is not exactly a comfortable thing. His power and might is kinda scary to say the least. We, as humans, are prone to screw up. But God is kind and forgiving. Still not a comfortable place to be as having God as a friend.

It's even more difficult to find a good church group to be involved with. So many just simply suck. The preacher phones in his sermons, the people phone in their morality, they don't do much collectively except claim status as "good guys".

You can make good choices or bad....and just because God knows the future just as well as the past does not mean that He will make you choose poorly. But He definitely knows what to do with your choices to achieve His goals.

To claim that God knows the future is to say that the future is fixed and unchangeable.
If, for example, I drop a quarter God already knew I was going to drop the quarter and I had no choice but to take the quarter from my pocket and drop it.

Applying this more broadly to things like the holocaust, God knew it was going to happen but either could not or would not stop it. This eliminates the concept of self determination or "choice' among people.
The former indicating that God is not all powerful the latter indicating that God is a cruel inhumane being.

The response to this will show why I became Buddhist.

 

[Votto]

To claim that God knows the future is to say that the future is fixed and unchangeable.
If, for example, I drop a quarter God already knew I was going to drop the quarter and I had no choice but to take the quarter from my pocket and drop it.

Applying this more broadly to things like the holocaust, God knew it was going to happen but either could not or would not stop it. This eliminates the concept of self determination or "choice' among people.
The former indicating that God is not all powerful the latter indicating that God is a cruel inhumane being.

The response to this will show why I became Buddhist.

I look at it like this

The better you get to know someone, the better apt you are to predict their actions.

God knows all and, therefore, is the best at this.

It is akin to letting a rock roll down a hill. If you knew enough math, you could predict it's entire path and outcome perfectly.

 

[GMCGeneral]

God will reward those that live a good life and repent for their sins.

Living a "good" life has nothing to do with salvation. Then it becomes performance based. Jesus's shed blood on the Cross and our acceptance by faith are what secure eternal life. The works we do after being saved are to lead others to the Cross.

 

[hadit]

You are depending more on what you hope god is like and less on what the bible says god is like.

No, I am depending on what the Bible says God is like. I know, for example, that there is NO hope for me outside what Yeshua did when He sacrificed Himself, then defeated death, that my sin WILL be punished. I know that I am TOTALLY dependent on His grace and mercy. Why walk away from Him because you don't understand something and experience His anger at the sin in your life? That makes far less sense than cutting off your foot because a mosquito bite on your toe is itching.

You apparently believe that God is arbitrary, picking this person for salvation and that person for damnation. That's not what He is like. The truth is that judgement WILL take place and sin WILL be punished. The only question that remains then is will you have the governor's pardon in your hand or not?

There's no such thing as being good enough or getting graded on a sliding scale, so you're fine as long as you're not as bad as that guy.

 

[GMCGeneral]

A couple of great reads on the subject at hand were both written by Lee Stroble.
The Case For Christ
And
The Case For Faith

 

[Votto]

Living a "good" life has nothing to do with salvation. Then it becomes performance based. Jesus's shed blood on the Cross and our acceptance by faith are what secure eternal life. The works we do after being saved are to lead others to the Cross.

The thief who died next to Jesus proves this

The thief did not live a good life, which was why he was on the cross in the first place, and being on the cross he did not have time to live one.

Yet he went to heaven according to the Bible.

All other religions you try to weigh you good actions with your bad and hope your good outweigh your bad.

Crazy.

 

[Crick]

You should read my OP. Most of my life I had a devout belief in god and all the trappings. I truly wish I could still enjoy that belief because of the comfort and peace, and sense of belonging to something greater than myself I gained from it. After study, I can no longer cling to what I once believed.

I read your OP. That's why I'm confused. You seem to have found evidence in scripture contradicting the concept of a benevolent god. Yet you still clearly want to believe in a god. If there is an omnipotent god who created the universe and us, you would expect some sort of alignment between our moral and ethical "standards" and how such a being would choose to operate. Yet that is not the case. The god of the Bible is vengeful and conceited. If you met someone on the street who behaved like the god of the old testament, you'd call the police. The schism between the approaches of the Old and New Testament hardly testifies to complete perfection on either hand. How seriously have you considered the possibility that there simply is no god of any sort?

 

[Votto]

I read your OP. That's why I'm confused. You seem to have found evidence in scripture contradicting the concept of a benevolent god. Yet you still clearly want to believe in a god. If there is an omnipotent god who created the universe and us, you would expect some sort of alignment between our moral and ethical "standards" and how such a being would choose to operate. Yet that is not the case. The god of the Bible is vengeful and conceited. The schism between the approaches of the Old and New Testament hardly testifies to complete perfection on either hand. How seriously have you considered the possibility that there simply is no god of any sort?

Who does not want to believe that a God exists that is loving and can provide eternal life, and who does not want that God to be like Christ who walked the earth?

Mankind obviously needs redemption, or had you not noticed?

 

[Meriweather]

To claim that God knows the future is to say that the future is fixed and unchangeable.
If, for example, I drop a quarter God already knew I was going to drop the quarter and I had no choice but to take the quarter from my pocket and drop it.

Applying this more broadly to things like the holocaust, God knew it was going to happen but either could not or would not stop it. This eliminates the concept of self determination or "choice' among people.
The former indicating that God is not all powerful the latter indicating that God is a cruel inhumane being.

The response to this will show why I became Buddhist.

When scripture speaks of God's knowledge of the future, it speaks of His plans, not the plans of mankind. Whatever it is mankind does, it will not get in the way of what God intends to accomplish. Not even a Holocaust. Given my profession, I think of it as an art classroom. No matter how big the mess, it can still be cleaned up--and it doesn't affect my plans for the next day. Those are set.

 

[Meriweather]

The god of the Bible is vengeful and conceited. If you met someone on the street who behaved like the god of the old testament, you'd call the police.

On the other hand, if you heard on the streets a loving father behaved in a horrific way, more than likely you would want to make sure first, you correctly understood the account--given that it took place and was described in another language. Second, you would want to hear what the accused has to say.

The point is, modern Western culture does not correctly understand the Old Testament account, and in the New Testament we hear testimony that God is a loving father, and as such, He does not hand His children snakes. Given these realities, perhaps we should go back to the first person, taking along with us, with someone who understands the original language and can clarify the account for our Western minds and ears.

 

[BULLDOG]

I read your OP. That's why I'm confused. You seem to have found evidence in scripture contradicting the concept of a benevolent god. Yet you still clearly want to believe in a god. If there is an omnipotent god who created the universe and us, you would expect some sort of alignment between our moral and ethical "standards" and how such a being would choose to operate. Yet that is not the case. The god of the Bible is vengeful and conceited. If you met someone on the street who behaved like the god of the old testament, you'd call the police. The schism between the approaches of the Old and New Testament hardly testifies to complete perfection on either hand. How seriously have you considered the possibility that there simply is no god of any sort?

Obviously I have not been clear. I see no reason to believe in any god. I still wish I could.

 

[Crick]

Who does not want to believe that a God exists that is loving and can provide eternal life, and who does not want that God to be like Christ who walked the earth?

Mankind obviously needs redemption, or had you not noticed?

Neither needs nor wants are evidence of existence. We all have fantasies we wish for true, and most far more pleasant than the one Christianity, Islam, Judaism and all the rest provide.

 

[bodecea]

I believe in the teachings of Jesus, not the teachings of Paul.

I believe the example set by Jesus is a good example to try and lead your life regardless of anything else.

Paul was just another con-man like Muhammed, Joseph Smith, and L. Ron Hubbard.

 

[Crick]

Obviously I have not been clear. I see no reason to believe in any god. I still wish I could.

I see I did not read enough of your posts in this thread or read them closely enough. My apologies. Have a nice day.

 

[Meriweather]

I see no reason to believe in any god.

Sincerely, it's the best option for all who cannot discern the reality of God who loves.

 

[onefour1]

To truly understand why some are blessed to be chosen as leaders in God's church and some are born to never hear the gospel in their life one must understand the premortal existence of mankind and the doctrine of salvation for the dead.

For God to give all mankind the opportunity of hearing and accepting the gospel, they all must hear the gospel and decide whether or not to accept it. However, in this life we know that there have been many who have come and died without having the chance to hear and receive the gospel of Jesus Christ. But Christ did not only come to the living on this earth to preach his gospel but he also went unto those who are spirits who have died and didn't have a chance to hear the gospel while alive on earth.

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Here we learn that Jesus, upon his death, went and preached to "the spirits in prison". They were they who died and were in the world of spirits. He was teaching unto them because many did not have the opportunity to hear the gospel and needed the chance to hear it and accept it.

1 Peter 4:6
5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Here we are taught that the gospel was preached also to them that are dead. Jesus has made it possible that all mankind who come to this earth will have the opportunity before the day of judgement to hear and accept his gospel. All mankind will have the opportunity to choose salvation.

What many fail to understand is that before we came to this earth, we existed as the spirit children of our Father in Heaven. When Jesus created the earth, we were there in heaven shouting for joy.

Job 38:3-7
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

To the prophet Jeremiah, the Lord said:

Jeremiah 1:4-5
4 Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

As the spirit children of God the Father, we all existed prior to coming to this earth. We at that time had our free will to choose also. One of the children of God, named Lucifer, who was a son of the morning or morning star, rebelled against the Father and sought to usurp the power of God. In his rebellion he got many of the children of God to follow after him and his false plan for mankind. As premortal spirits of our heavenly Father, we all had to choose to either follow after Lucifer or follower the plan of our Father in heaven. Those who sided with Lucifer were all cast out of heaven into this earth and lost the opportunity of coming to this life and gaining a body of flesh and bone. There were likely varying degrees of allegiance of the followers of God and his Christ. But those who eventually sided with the Father were allowed to come to this earth and receive a body of flesh and bones and go through a mortal probation. We read about this in Revelation 12.

Revelation 12:7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Those who were on the side of God the Father, Jesus Christ, and Michael, according to verse 11, needed to overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb. In other words, those of us who fought on God's side needed the blood of the Lamb to overcome him. This means that we all came to this earth and received bodies of flesh and bone and were in need of repentance (as fallen men) to overcome Satan. Thus we fought in heaven and came to this earth to finish the battle. Verse 11 also declares that we were subject to death.

Some of the most valiant of those who fought against Satan in the premortal existence were blessed in this life to be foreordained to be rulers in God's kingdom.

Ephesians 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

So basically, those in the premortal existence who were very, very valiant and loved God and his plan, likely have a predisposition to hearing and understanding the call to righteousness and free will when we hear it in this life. Thus they tend to choose to believe in Jesus Christ and want to follow his ways. However, there are those who have varying dispositions that come to this life who did eventually side with the Father and the Son in the war in heaven. For some it comes easier than to others. Our mission is to try and convince all mankind of what they chose in the premortal life to come unto Christ and find life eternal. God wishes for all his children to choose good over evil but knows that for us to truly be good beings, we must make this decision in and of ourselves. You only become truly good beings in and of yourselves by choose in and of yourself to be such. Thus this life is a test to see if we will choose in and of ourselves to good beings and love righteousness over wickedness. God wants all mankind to make the right choices but He must give us our free will to choose in order that we become good in and of ourselves. Eventually we will all have the chance to hear and accept the gospel of love and righteousness. This is the will of God. He loves you!

 

[GMCGeneral]

To truly understand why some are blessed to be chosen as leaders in God's church and some are born to never hear the gospel in their life one must understand the premortal existence of mankind and the doctrine of salvation for the dead.

For God to give all mankind the opportunity of hearing and accepting the gospel, they all must hear the gospel and decide whether or not to accept it. However, in this life we know that there have been many who have come and died without having the chance to hear and receive the gospel of Jesus Christ. But Christ did not only come to the living on this earth to preach his gospel but he also went unto those who are spirits who have died and didn't have a chance to hear the gospel while alive on earth.

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Here we learn that Jesus, upon his death, went and preached to "the spirits in prison". They were they who died and were in the world of spirits. He was teaching unto them because many did not have the opportunity to hear the gospel and needed the chance to hear it and accept it.

1 Peter 4:6
5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Here we are taught that the gospel was preached also to them that are dead. Jesus has made it possible that all mankind who come to this earth will have the opportunity before the day of judgement to hear and accept his gospel. All mankind will have the opportunity to choose salvation.

What many fail to understand is that before we came to this earth, we existed as the spirit children of our Father in Heaven. When Jesus created the earth, we were there in heaven shouting for joy.

Job 38:3-7
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

To the prophet Jeremiah, the Lord said:

Jeremiah 1:4-5
4 Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

As the spirit children of God the Father, we all existed prior to coming to this earth. We at that time had our free will to choose also. One of the children of God, named Lucifer, who was a son of the morning or morning star, rebelled against the Father and sought to usurp the power of God. In his rebellion he got many of the children of God to follow after him and his false plan for mankind. As premortal spirits of our heavenly Father, we all had to choose to either follow after Lucifer or follower the plan of our Father in heaven. Those who sided with Lucifer were all cast out of heaven into this earth and lost the opportunity of coming to this life and gaining a body of flesh and bone. There were likely varying degrees of allegiance of the followers of God and his Christ. But those who eventually sided with the Father were allowed to come to this earth and receive a body of flesh and bones and go through a mortal probation. We read about this in Revelation 12.

Revelation 12:7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Those who were on the side of God the Father, Jesus Christ, and Michael, according to verse 11, needed to overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb. In other words, those of us who fought on God's side needed the blood of the Lamb to overcome him. This means that we all came to this earth and received bodies of flesh and bone and were in need of repentance (as fallen men) to overcome Satan. Thus we fought in heaven and came to this earth to finish the battle. Verse 11 also declares that we were subject to death.

Some of the most valiant of those who fought against Satan in the premortal existence were blessed in this life to be foreordained to be rulers in God's kingdom.

Ephesians 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

So basically, those in the premortal existence who were very, very valiant and loved God and his plan, likely have a predisposition to hearing and understanding the call to righteousness and free will when we hear it in this life. Thus they tend to choose to believe in Jesus Christ and want to follow his ways. However, there are those who have varying dispositions that come to this life who did eventually side with the Father and the Son in the war in heaven. For some it comes easier than to others. Our mission is to try and convince all mankind of what they chose in the premortal life to come unto Christ and find life eternal. God wishes for all his children to choose good over evil but knows that for us to truly be good beings, we must make this decision in and of ourselves. You only become truly good beings in and of yourselves by choose in and of yourself to be such. Thus this life is a test to see if we will choose in and of ourselves to good beings and love righteousness over wickedness. God wants all mankind to make the right choices but He must give us our free will to choose in order that we become good in and of ourselves. Eventually we will all have the chance to hear and accept the gospel of love and righteousness. This is the will of God. He loves you!

Straight from the mouths of Joseph and Hyram Smith.