Zone1 Question for Christians

[onefour1]

Straight from the mouths of Joseph and Hyram Smith.

I don't think I mentioned Joseph or HyrUm in my scripture quotes but if you would like I can do that for you.

 

[Dadoalex]

When scripture speaks of God's knowledge of the future, it speaks of His plans, not the plans of mankind. Whatever it is mankind does, it will not get in the way of what God intends to accomplish. Not even a Holocaust. Given my profession, I think of it as an art classroom. No matter how big the mess, it can still be cleaned up--and it doesn't affect my plans for the next day. Those are set.

So God didn't plan on destroying Babylon?
or Torturing Job?
or killing Jesus?

Just accidents?

 

[GMCGeneral]

So God didn't plan on destroying Babylon?
or Torturing Job?
or killing Jesus?

Just accidents?

Jesus's death was already foreordained. He was to be the Sacrificial Lamb of God.

 

[Meriweather]

So God didn't plan on destroying Babylon?
or Torturing Job?
or killing Jesus?

Just accidents?

1. Throughout the Bible reasons are given for why cities and nations fail or are destroyed. Their own undisciplined behavior--especially sexual behavior--is often noted. This holds true with Babylon.

2. Job was a play, the Biblical version of the 1981 book, When Bad Things Happen to Good People. It has been a question that consistently pops up all throughout the ages.

3. I am not one who believes God deliberately sent Jesus to Earth to be crucified. Scripture tells us that Jesus was anointed to announce Redemption, repentance for the forgiveness of sins. The authorities of his own day told him he had no authority to make any such proclamation and to cease and desist. Jesus put obedience to the Father to proclaim the Good News over the authority wielded in his day. The result: He was put to death, and he chose to lay down his life rather than to cease and desist announcing the Kingdom is at hand, and turning from sin to God results in the forgiveness of sins. Had his message been accepted, there would have been no reason to have him put to death. He gave his life on behalf of God's message and his obedience to God to keep proclaiming that message. He died over the forgiveness of sins.

 

[Votto]

Neither needs nor wants are evidence of existence. We all have fantasies we wish for true, and most far more pleasant than the one Christianity, Islam, Judaism and all the rest provide.

There is plenty of evidence that you refuse to acknowledge that billions of people around the world see as well.

Faith is not like believing in the Easter Bunny because there is no evidence to believe in the Easter Bunny, which is why no one believes in him.

 

[Grumblenuts]

You should read my OP. Most of my life I had a devout belief in god and all the trappings. I truly wish I could still enjoy that belief because of the comfort and peace, and sense of belonging to something greater than myself I gained from it. After study, I can no longer cling to what I once believed.

It's such a goddamned shame that we're encouraged to "believe in" and fight each other over this manufactured bullshit or that, instead of just believing in each other since that's what's obviously required for us to continue surviving as a species.

 

[HaShev]

Lots of stuff in the bible is iffy.

Because you have to look at who authorized the compilation and the intent.
Constantine was trying to form the 1 world religion whereby they'd be the authority and tax collector (through tithes) of all cultures religions and cults, and Rome would be able to waltz into any kingdom without revolt, through thr mask of religious authority. So Constantine who was known to have an extensive library of cultures mythologies had the audacity to commission the compiling of cultures myths and martyrs into one plagiarized story under a new name masking old beliefs and mythologies. Eusebius was commissioned to forge and create the plagiarized rewritten word.
In trying to squash the Jewish revolt, they needed to claim Saul converted and the mask for baal sun worship now needed a Jewish face to convert them through.
Saul didn't write 2/3 the NT It is said Pol (Apollonius) did using his extensive library of cultures myths and stories including his infatuation with KRISHNA called the Christos. So most likely most of the work was done for Eusebius and Constantine already in the compiled religions, and Constantine could easily have had Pol's writtings in that extensive library of his, helpingvto form the new basis of that 1 world religion.
Now before you assume you'd never fall for such a subversive act of authoratative control, I'd like to point out your acts to be a foot soldier for the move in your party to be a 1world party (based in progressive liberalism (communist party hidden under a mask) instead of using religion to mask begind it's now Global Warming-climate change that allows them to get into all nations and collect taxes under the guise of saving and converting the world.
-bam you've been awakened

 

[Dadoalex]

Jesus's death was already foreordained. He was to be the Sacrificial Lamb of God.

but then god would need to control the actions of not only Jesus but the Pharisees, Roman legions, and the citizenry of Jerusalem.

so much for free will.

 

[GMCGeneral]

but then god would need to control the actions of not only Jesus but the Pharisees, Roman legions, and the citizenry of Jerusalem.

so much for free will.

There's a big difference between what G-d controls and what He ALLOWS in order for His perfect will to be fulfilled. He can control actions/circumstances, but He generally won't. It is still up to the individual whether to accept the Gospel and be saved, or reject it and be forever condemned.

 

[Dadoalex]

There's a big difference between what G-d controls and what He ALLOWS in order for His perfect will to be fulfilled. He can control actions/circumstances, but He generally won't. It is still up to the individual whether to accept the Gospel and be saved, or reject it and be forever condemned.

In order to achieve his goals God controls.
He floods, he murders, he brings disease...
It's all right there in the bible if you'd care to read it.

 

[hadit]

In order to achieve his goals God controls.
He floods, he murders, he brings disease...
It's all right there in the bible if you'd care to read it.

Sounds like a good reason to make sure you're living in His will. Let's face reality, He has perspective and authority we neither understand nor have ourselves.

 

[GMCGeneral]

In order to achieve his goals God controls.
He floods, he murders, he brings disease...
It's all right there in the bible if you'd care to read it.

I have. And His will cannot be thwarted.

 

[Meriweather]

In order to achieve his goals God controls.
He floods, he murders, he brings disease...
It's all right there in the bible if you'd care to read it.

It seems you have read it...now study it.

 

[hadit]

It seems you have read it...now study it.

Agreed. Understand what was going on when God brought disaster on people, what they were doing at the time, WHY He acted as he did. It is not enough to complain about the punishment without seeing the centuries of grace and mercy He extended, only to see it trashed. It would be like saying that life imprisonment is harsh and arbitrary by focusing on a defendant's admitted jaywalking while ignoring the multiple deaths he deliberately caused in a shooting spree.

 

[marvin martian]

I was devoutly Christian until I did a deep study of the bible which presented questions I couldn't find the answers to, and nobody I asked even tried to answer. I wish I could reclaim my faith. Believing in a loving, all knowing God who deeply cared about me personally gave me great comfort in hard times, and I wish I could regain peace that came from the belief that all things would work for the good to them that love God. I conveniently ignored the following part that said only those that were called according to his purpose.

Paul was quite specific when he said there is nothing in human desire or effort to gain forgiveness. God will show mercy or harden who he wants, and nothing we believe, say, or do will have anything to do with his choice. (Romans 9: 16-18) Paul goes on to explain that some people were only created as examples of his glory to be shown to the objects of his mercy. (Romans 9: 19-23) Obviously, those people were created to go to hell, since there is nothing they can believe , or do to change Gods decision on mercy.

Help me out here. Does God offer the chance to go to heaven to everybody, or just his chosen few, and how do you justify what Paul wrote with the idea of a benevolent forgiving God?

At any point in your alleged "deep study", did you ever come across anything that explained to you that faith is belief in the absence of proof?

 

[Foxfyre]

I was devoutly Christian until I did a deep study of the bible which presented questions I couldn't find the answers to, and nobody I asked even tried to answer. I wish I could reclaim my faith. Believing in a loving, all knowing God who deeply cared about me personally gave me great comfort in hard times, and I wish I could regain peace that came from the belief that all things would work for the good to them that love God. I conveniently ignored the following part that said only those that were called according to his purpose.

Paul was quite specific when he said there is nothing in human desire or effort to gain forgiveness. God will show mercy or harden who he wants, and nothing we believe, say, or do will have anything to do with his choice. (Romans 9: 16-18) Paul goes on to explain that some people were only created as examples of his glory to be shown to the objects of his mercy. (Romans 9: 19-23) Obviously, those people were created to go to hell, since there is nothing they can believe , or do to change Gods decision on mercy.

Help me out here. Does God offer the chance to go to heaven to everybody, or just his chosen few, and how do you justify what Paul wrote with the idea of a benevolent forgiving God?

While I believe the Bible is of God and has been under the protection of God, those who wrote down the words in the Bible did so through their own eyes, experience, history, lore, understanding, belief. And as all of us have changed our perspective and belief and understanding about many things over the years, so did they over the centuries and millenia. Thus it is important to know and incorporate all of the Bible into our understanding and allow God to work in our lives rather than try to dictate what specific rules and theology will be 'law' for us as the ancient ones did.

I think God allows us all to be flexible in our beliefs and understanding and he seems to respect those who seek to obey and worship him regardless of their differing doctrines. I have often said that when we meet in Heaven we'll all have a good laugh over how much of all this we got wrong.

As for who goes to Heaven, I'm pretty sure that is God's prerogative and none of us have any say over it whatsoever. Our job is to love God with all our heart, mine, and soul and to love others as we want to be loved. But if we at least try to live up to that ideal, I believe God gives us increasing assurance that this life is not all that there is and a spiritual life--we call it Heaven--awaits us.

 

[Dadoalex]

Sounds like a good reason to make sure you're living in His will. Let's face reality, He has perspective and authority we neither understand nor have ourselves.

Unless. of course, Marx was right when he called religion the "opiate of the masses" and it's all a scam to keep the people under control and get them to pay for their own enslavement.

Or, applying Occam's razor
The option requiring the least explanation is the most probable answer

or Mr. Holmes
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

 

[Dadoalex]

I have. And His will cannot be thwarted.

Am I not "thwarting his will" right now?

When two Gay people get married are they not "thwarting his will?"

Speaking of "God's will" is it "god's will" that Jews, Christians, Muslims, and Mormons all have different conflicting views of "God's will?"

Or is God just impotent or imaginary?

 

[hadit]

Unless. of course, Marx was right when he called religion the "opiate of the masses" and it's all a scam to keep the people under control and get them to pay for their own enslavement.

The answer, of course, is that Marxism itself is a religion, a scam to keep the people under control and get them to pay for their own enslavement.

Or, applying Occam's razor
The option requiring the least explanation is the most probable answer

The option requiring the least explanation is that God is all-powerful and all-knowing, sees the entirety of human life from beginning to end and knows exactly what He's doing.

or Mr. Holmes
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

And by eliminating the impossible, ala man having even the capacity to understand God's mind beyond what He reveals to us, or to have standing to comment on His actions, we're left with, again, God is in control, His ways are just and merciful. Until you grasp that, you're screaming into a hurricane.

 

[Dadoalex]

It seems you have read it...now study it.

I have, with an open mind.
And
When you study it with an open mind rather than being groomed you come to the clear conclusion that, if god were actually real, he's a complete asshole.

Just ask Job.