“Que sera sera” ---- man’s greatest sin.

[jehanne1431]

Imo, the two great sins of mankind in Christian North America and Western Europe are this. >> The lack of desire to want to know God. >> And intellectual dishonesty. --- i.e., when they are faced with undeniable facts of a miracle neither they nor science can explain, they choose to ignore it.

The lack of desire is worse. When the apostles asked the Lord why He speaks in parables Jesus told them “because man has a sluggish heart. So when they listen they cannot hear and with their eyes they cannot see.” Apparently God has revealed enough, still man’s ego chooses to do other things with his life.

As one saint remarked: “Habitual sin causes a darkening of the intellect and a weakening of the will.”
And St. Ambrose (4th century) “Those who perish, perish by their own negligence.”

 

[Lumpy 1]

..... even you couldn't mention just one...

Alas mankind .. doomed to repeat but hopefully do the right things and enjoy it...

 

[Stann]

Imo, the two great sins of mankind in Christian North America and Western Europe are this. >> The lack of desire to want to know God. >> And intellectual dishonesty. --- i.e., when they are faced with undeniable facts of a miracle neither they nor science can explain, they choose to ignore it.

The lack of desire is worse. When the apostles asked the Lord why He speaks in parables Jesus told them “because man has a sluggish heart. So when they listen they cannot hear and with their eyes they cannot see.” Apparently God has revealed enough, still man’s ego chooses to do other things with his life.

As one saint remarked: “Habitual sin causes a darkening of the intellect and a weakening of the will.”
And St. Ambrose (4th century) “Those who perish, perish by their own negligence.”

The greatest sin is believing GOD wants anyone to persecute other people in his name. Especially if you believe your cause is " just ". Hatred is never acceptable to GOD.

 

[jehanne1431]

The greatest sin is believing GOD wants anyone to persecute other people in his name. Especially if you believe your cause is " just ". Hatred is never acceptable to GOD.

I dare say Christianity has done a thousand times more good for mankind than it has persecuting its fellow man. No one, not the Catholic Church, no one, is without sin and error, I will grant you that. And even though I do agree persecution is a serious sin, I believe what I referenced is far more germane and grave matter for most souls. But I am not here expecting debate, I do not find most exchanges here to be all that compelling. I just hope someone who reads it may find it meaningful.

 

[BreezeWood]

I dare say Christianity has done a thousand times more good for mankind than it has persecuting its fellow man. No one, not the Catholic Church, no one, is without sin and error, I will grant you that. And even though I do agree persecution is a serious sin, I believe what I referenced is far more germane and grave matter for most souls. But I am not here expecting debate, I do not find most exchanges here to be all that compelling. I just hope someone who reads it may find it meaningful.

speaking of the greatest sin - believing everyone is a sinner ... even those that have risen above sin to free their spirits for admission to the everlasting. as is the mission granted a&e and all who might seek such an outcome. sinners need not apply.

error is not an applicable malady.

when they are faced with undeniable facts of a miracle neither they nor science can explain, they choose to ignore it.

and what might that have been that has endured over time than found one way or another of being something else.

 

[Stann]

I dare say Christianity has done a thousand times more good for mankind than it has persecuting its fellow man. No one, not the Catholic Church, no one, is without sin and error, I will grant you that. And even though I do agree persecution is a serious sin, I believe what I referenced is far more germane and grave matter for most souls. But I am not here expecting debate, I do not find most exchanges here to be all that compelling. I just hope someone who reads it may find it meaningful.

Actually Christianity and the other Judgmental Religions ( Judaism and Islam ) have totally upset the balance that the natural GOD intended for this world, this the need for redemption by providing good deeds to correct the problems they created in the first place.

 

[jehanne1431]

.
[me:] No one, not the Catholic Church, no one, is without sin and error

speaking of the greatest sin - believing everyone is a sinner ... even those that have risen above sin to free their spirits for admission to the everlasting. as is the mission granted a&e and all who might seek such an outcome. sinners need not apply. -------------------------- error is not an applicable malady.

Well I am not sure where you may be coming from. Protestants (generally speaking) seem to dismiss all witnesses or revelations that are not disclosed in Scripture, and so that would alter my response. Pagans and agnostics demand empirical proof and show little interest in the what the Bible may have to say. But if you are speaking Biblically only, then Scripture is clear all men are sinners and need of a savior. Speaking as a Catholic, I do not concur than anyone can claim they have “risen above sin” --- and following --- nor can they make the claim of “blessed assurance” as many of them like to call it. St. Paul says we work through our salvation in fear and trembling. How does one spin that into blessed assurance?

Trying to stay brief, consider 1 Corinthians 4:1-5 alone: This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover it is required of stewards that they be found trustworthy. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself. 4 I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart.

Paul is saying he does not dare to judge even himself to be “saved” or “worthy of the kingdom” or similar ---- far less, dare to judge anyone else. He says he is not aware of anything “grievously sinful” he may be guilty of, but neither he nor any human can acquit him, only God judges in God’s own way. This is extreme caution, imo, it can be related to what Catholicism calls “the sin of presumption.” I could cite countless passages that allude to that very same critical matter. “Error” is a word that has multiple meanings, and in Scripture it often means sin, just a kinder way of stating it.

Then there is an extremely serious difference between Catholicism and Protestantism of the reality --- and Biblical matter --- of purgatory. I will not argue that true faith alone may save any believer from hell, but to presume further that means a direct flight to heaven when one dies; that is completely false. Yes, that is my belief, but it is also the belief of the early Church, countless saints, Catholic dogma, and the words of the Virgin Mary, and souls who the Lord permitted to return to earth as witnesses. As long as we differ on that paramount truth, very little is agreed upon between two Christians beyond that, including what all else Scripture teaches.

 

[jehanne1431]

.
[me] when they are faced with undeniable facts of a miracle neither they nor science can explain, they choose to ignore it.

and what might that have been that has endured over time than found one way or another of being something else.

No miracle or alleged miracle stands on its own. It is the preponderance of evidence over history that lays credence to the truth. If I laid out the documented facts of the following miracles alone, one would be up to their eyeballs in supernatural phenomenon they would have to explain away.

• Fatima; on July 13, 1917 three children say the Virgin Mary says a great miracle will occur on October 17 and 70,000 eye witnesses show and the miracle of the sun blows their minds.
• The Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe 1531; science is still completely confounded by this image of the Virgin on a cactus cloak with no evidence of paint or pigment, more like a photograph and it is far more fascinating than just that.
• Zeitoun, Egypt 1968: The Virgin appears on a Coptic Cathedral on at least 20 nights, moving, floating, kneeling to the cross, never speaking. Some photographs capture her, others do not. But over that summer more than a quarter million eye witnesses attest to the truth and Egyptian authorities do all they can to uncover the truth behind this woman and the colorful lights and plumes of smoke that appear each time. They cannot, because it is supernatural.
• The Shroud of Turin; first of all, the carbon 14 data testing done in the 1980s has been completely ruled out as faulty by scientists themselves. One should take the time to see how man miraculous qualities are on that cloth, it is beyond any doubt a heavenly matter, the burial cloth of Christ.
• Weeping statues and paintings of Mary or Jesus; forget the handful of hoaxes, no one wants to believe this is really occurring. It is happening all over the globe this past century. Nuns do not play tricks with statues or with their faith.

So many other miracles I could expound on. But all of these miracles are of the same origin -- Christian, Catholic, and absolutely galvanizing. Jesus himself said to the people, “If thou dost not believe in me, then believe in the works that I do, that ye may know that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” Many or most of the earliest Jews came to believe because of the miracles He performed. God continues to provide the signs and wonders throughout history to bolster the faith of believers and challenge those who deny. So given the Bible, the secular history of all the goodness and charity Christianity has brought forth to a lost world, the words and manifestations of the saints, the endurance of the Catholic Church established by Christ, and so much more, that is the preponderance of evidence that cannot be denied by reason or any other means. IMO (I appreciate your interest.)

 

[jehanne1431]

Actually Christianity and the other Judgmental Religions ( Judaism and Islam ) have totally upset the balance that the natural GOD intended for this world, this the need for redemption by providing good deeds to correct the problems they created in the first place.

I am not on board with what “the natural GOD” is referring to. But your other point that “GOD intended for this world, this the need for redemption by providing good deeds to correct the problems they created in the first place.” ---- I have no problem with that. That is very true and Biblical, imo.

 

[SweetSue92]

Actually Christianity and the other Judgmental Religions ( Judaism and Islam ) have totally upset the balance that the natural GOD intended for this world, this the need for redemption by providing good deeds to correct the problems they created in the first place.

If there is no judgement how do you know what the "good deeds" are?

 

[BreezeWood]

.
[me:] No one, not the Catholic Church, no one, is without sin and error



Well I am not sure where you may be coming from. Protestants (generally speaking) seem to dismiss all witnesses or revelations that are not disclosed in Scripture, and so that would alter my response. Pagans and agnostics demand empirical proof and show little interest in the what the Bible may have to say. But if you are speaking Biblically only, then Scripture is clear all men are sinners and need of a savior. Speaking as a Catholic, I do not concur than anyone can claim they have “risen above sin” --- and following --- nor can they make the claim of “blessed assurance” as many of them like to call it. St. Paul says we work through our salvation in fear and trembling. How does one spin that into blessed assurance?

Trying to stay brief, consider 1 Corinthians 4:1-5 alone: This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover it is required of stewards that they be found trustworthy. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself. 4 I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart.

Paul is saying he does not dare to judge even himself to be “saved” or “worthy of the kingdom” or similar ---- far less, dare to judge anyone else. He says he is not aware of anything “grievously sinful” he may be guilty of, but neither he nor any human can acquit him, only God judges in God’s own way. This is extreme caution, imo, it can be related to what Catholicism calls “the sin of presumption.” I could cite countless passages that allude to that very same critical matter. “Error” is a word that has multiple meanings, and in Scripture it often means sin, just a kinder way of stating it.

Then there is an extremely serious difference between Catholicism and Protestantism of the reality --- and Biblical matter --- of purgatory. I will not argue that true faith alone may save any believer from hell, but to presume further that means a direct flight to heaven when one dies; that is completely false. Yes, that is my belief, but it is also the belief of the early Church, countless saints, Catholic dogma, and the words of the Virgin Mary, and souls who the Lord permitted to return to earth as witnesses. As long as we differ on that paramount truth, very little is agreed upon between two Christians beyond that, including what all else Scripture teaches.

beginning at birth - learning the difference ...

the mission granted a&e from their discourse was from the heavens to learn themselves through self determination the path for remission to spiritual everlasting they were then to leave.

that path led to the great flood - as a failure of humanity prematurely interrupted to give humanity a second chance w/ the renewed, prescribed religion of antiquity as their guide - the triumph of good vs evil - for a spirit to be judged for remission.

feel free to point out scripturaly from the great flood to the 1st century where the heavens changed the goal from liberation theology, self determination to worshiping a messiah, servitude - disregarding judaism - please provide that evidence.

"a direct flight to heaven when one dies; that is completely false." - - the triumph of one over the other - good vs evil - is what is judged, if the correct triumph is accomplished their spirit is granted remission to the Everlasting - the parable of noah.

 

[jehanne1431]

beginning at birth - learning the difference ...

the mission granted a&e from their discourse was from the heavens to learn themselves through self determination the path for remission to spiritual everlasting they were then to leave.

that path led to the great flood - as a failure of humanity prematurely interrupted to give humanity a second chance w/ the renewed, prescribed religion of antiquity as their guide - the triumph of good vs evil - for a spirit to be judged for remission.

feel free to point out scripturaly from the great flood to the 1st century where the heavens changed the goal from liberation theology, self determination to worshiping a messiah, servitude - disregarding judaism - please provide that evidence.

"a direct flight to heaven when one dies; that is completely false." - - the triumph of one over the other - good vs evil - is what is judged, if the correct triumph is accomplished their spirit is granted remission to the Everlasting - the parable of noah.

It appears to me as though you have settled on one fundamental teaching from God which surely prescribes virtue and even deliverance. But since the flood God has surely revealed so much more of Himself and what He wishes or commands of His creation. God does not leave mankind in the dark or relying on how a&e or noah or Abraham were dealt with. We are all born in our own settings, era, environment, conflicts, etc. The time for a Savior was as it should be, and the time for revealing greater truths, laws, understandings were as they should be. Prophets in the old world, saints, signs and wonders in the new world.

So, yes, it was always put on man’s conscience and heart to have a rational understanding of good vs. evil. And that will be the prominent judge for many or most. But that hardly precludes God from granting greater understanding, responsibility and expectations as the world expands in knowledge and awareness and the great commission of Jesus to the apostles to go to all corners of the world to baptize and share the gospel. He also commanded charity to be the highest virtue, even more than faith.

Are we at odds... I cannot tell? It seems you do not believe Christianity is a deal breaker for those of us in the West who have been given the knowledge and the evidence for it. If so, I will leave you with Jesus’ warning to the high-minded Pharisees of His day, which is no doubt every bit as pertinent in the here and now: John 9:39-41 "I came into this world," said Jesus, "to judge men, that those who do not see may see, and that those who do see may become blind." These words were heard by those of the Pharisees who were present, and they asked Him, "Are we also blind?" "If you were blind," answered Jesus, "you would have no sin; but as a matter of fact you boast that you see. So your sin remains!"

 

[norwegen]

The sin of the Bible is idolatry.

 

[Stann]

I am not on board with what “the natural GOD” is referring to. But your other point that “GOD intended for this world, this the need for redemption by providing good deeds to correct the problems they created in the first place.” ---- I have no problem with that. That is very true and Biblical, imo.

Unfortunately they never learned their lessons.

 

[Stann]

If there is no judgement how do you know what the "good deeds" are?

Haven't we been here before ?

 

[BreezeWood]

It appears to me as though you have settled on one fundamental teaching from God which surely prescribes virtue and even deliverance. But since the flood God has surely revealed so much more of Himself and what He wishes or commands of His creation. God does not leave mankind in the dark or relying on how a&e or noah or Abraham were dealt with. We are all born in our own settings, era, environment, conflicts, etc. The time for a Savior was as it should be, and the time for revealing greater truths, laws, understandings were as they should be. Prophets in the old world, saints, signs and wonders in the new world.

So, yes, it was always put on man’s conscience and heart to have a rational understanding of good vs. evil. And that will be the prominent judge for many or most. But that hardly precludes God from granting greater understanding, responsibility and expectations as the world expands in knowledge and awareness and the great commission of Jesus to the apostles to go to all corners of the world to baptize and share the gospel. He also commanded charity to be the highest virtue, even more than faith.

Are we at odds... I cannot tell? It seems you do not believe Christianity is a deal breaker for those of us in the West who have been given the knowledge and the evidence for it. If so, I will leave you with Jesus’ warning to the high-minded Pharisees of His day, which is no doubt every bit as pertinent in the here and now: John 9:39-41 "I came into this world," said Jesus, "to judge men, that those who do not see may see, and that those who do see may become blind." These words were heard by those of the Pharisees who were present, and they asked Him, "Are we also blind?" "If you were blind," answered Jesus, "you would have no sin; but as a matter of fact you boast that you see. So your sin remains!"

the mission granted a&e from their discourse was from the heavens to learn themselves through self determination the path for remission to spiritual everlasting they were then to leave.

Are we at odds... I cannot tell? It seems you do not believe Christianity is a deal breaker for those of us in the West who have been given the knowledge and the evidence for it.

No one, not the Catholic Church, no one, is without sin and error,

crucifying the 1st century religious itinerant - is the deal breaker as the reversal of noah ... have you brought the criminals to justice, they wrote the 4th century c bible - you quoted.

the religion of antiquity leads to purity, one kind or another - irregardless of all else that is the requirement for remission that can not be accomplished any other way than by the individual spirit themselves.